(04-02-2020 02:13 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 12:05 PM)TripleA Wrote:  LOL. Would you like to see a few early quotes from some of your faves? Like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, Di Blasio, etc.

I mean... the topic being discussed is Trump, his administration, and their reactions to the coronavirus pandemic.. but since you're so adamant about derailing the conversation with "muh whatabout the democrats"....

Sure.

Share them.

You know what they all said. Just pointing out your hypocrisy for sniping at Trump. Just b/c you're a Dem. I didn't hear you ***** about the others.

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

Based on what historical actions does Trump seem to give a rats ass about criticism from the left? He seems to seek it.

Criticism should always be 'constructive' otherwise it's just noise, indistinct from what you've been doing for 2 years now... so my question is, by what measure do you call something a failure or a success?

Would 60mm infections and/or 12,500 US deaths be a good or bad outcome in your mind?

You most certainly don't (neither do I and I don't know anyone who does) know enough about this virus to be able to reasonably predict a good or bad outcome in terms of numbers right now. If you put 10 experts in a room, you'd get 10 different answers. Heck, we got iirc 20,000 to 500,000 deaths from just one person/group... and most importantly, you'd get a very wide range like that.

We've done much more than we did for H1N1 already and almost from the start (no travel restrictions nor quarantines for H1N1). It seems self-evident that this portends a MUCH 'worse' outcome than from H1N1.... certainly in terms of deaths. Define the basis for 'quality' and then your criticisms can be taken seriously. You can do it by numbers, like 25,000 deaths... or on a relative basis.... a lower mortality rate than say the UK, Spain, Germany, Italy, France... other fairly similar nations. Especially when you consider that these nations are often held out as models for us for healthcare delivery, they should have better outcomes, right?

Barring that, it's just 'Orange Man Bad'.

(04-02-2020 02:13 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  I mean... the topic being discussed is Trump, his administration, and their reactions to the coronavirus pandemic.. but since you're so adamant about derailing the conversation with "muh whatabout the democrats"....

Sure.

Share them.

Performance in situations like this are relative, not absolute. You can compare it to past reactions... you can compare it to the reactions by other nations...

You guys seem intent on simply comparing it to your (often completely biased) opinions.

(04-02-2020 02:28 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

Exactly WTF does the "pandemic response team" have to do with responding to a pandemic? I mean that as a serious question. I have read the vaunted pandemic response "gameplan" and it has nothing to do with responding to a pandemic. It was Marquis of Queensbury rules for refereeing turf battles among competing bureaucracies. It had absolutely nothing about actual actions to respond to pandemics.

(04-02-2020 03:00 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:13 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 12:05 PM)TripleA Wrote:  LOL. Would you like to see a few early quotes from some of your faves? Like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, Di Blasio, etc.

I mean... the topic being discussed is Trump, his administration, and their reactions to the coronavirus pandemic.. but since you're so adamant about derailing the conversation with "muh whatabout the democrats"....

Sure.

Share them.

You know what they all said. Just pointing out your hypocrisy for sniping at Trump. Just b/c you're a Dem. I didn't hear you ***** about the others.

I actually don't know what they all said. I have an idea of what you're referring to with respect to Biden, but as for the others, I'm clueless.

So please share them.

By the way, why I am obligated to go after "the others" because I have a problem with Trump? Unlike you, I'm not pretending to be an independent. Plus, last I checked, Cuomo wasn't the president. Nor is Pelosi, Schumer, Di Blasio, or Biden. Trump's the number one guy. He's the commander in chief.

But instead of "the buck stops here", Trump employs the "I don't take responsibility at all" mantra. You know... like a real leader would.... Nothing is his fault, is it? It's Obama's fault, it's the do nothing democrats fault, it's China's fault, it's the mean ol' media's fault...

(04-02-2020 02:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  My question to those that want to criticize Trump now is are you on board with full criticism and legitmate action (not war) against the CHINESE REGIME.

I don't have any issue with someone that wants to criticize The President although I would say now isn't the appropriate time. More importantly, I'd highly caution criticism and wait until more conclusive outcomes are determined by actions that have/have not been taken as this is a rapidly changing situation and like the last 3-4 years most of you will come off looking as dumba$$es.

If we can prove something, by all means, do what we can against them.

And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

He's already pushed the date out to APR 30th. Re-evaluations are happening on a daily basis I imagine so picking a point to return to normal is a moving target.

That and people NEED to have a date of some sort IMHO. Or the crazy may set in even sooner than some of us think might be coming eventually anyway. Mid- March he said Easter. End of March he says, no Easter, we need to push that back a couple more weeks. Ok, it sucks, but we can hang in there another couple weeks.

Will it get pushed back further, perhaps. Perhaps even likely. But we can at least see the corner before we start to turn it. Without that to "aspire" too, people may get stir crazy sooner and just aw, Eff it. I'm going about my regular routine.

(04-02-2020 03:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:28 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

Exactly WTF does the "pandemic response team" have to do with responding to a pandemic? I mean that as a serious question. I have read the vaunted pandemic response "gameplan" and it has nothing to do with responding to a pandemic. It was Marquis of Queensbury rules for refereeing turf battles among competing bureaucracies. It had absolutely nothing about actual actions to respond to pandemics.

Seriously? What does a pandemic response team have to do with responding to pandemics?

My guess having a team of experts on staff at the White House fully devoted to monitoring global health trends would have been a net positive.

WaPo Wrote:The top White House official responsible for leading the U.S. response in the event of a deadly pandemic has left the administration, and the global health security team he oversaw has been disbanded under a reorganization by national security adviser John Bolton.

The abrupt departure of Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer from the National Security Council means no senior administration official is now focused solely on global health security. Ziemer’s departure, along with the breakup of his team, comes at a time when many experts say the country is already underprepared for the increasing risks of a pandemic or bioterrorism attack.

Ziemer’s last day was Tuesday, the same day a new Ebola outbreak was declared in Congo. He is not being replaced.

Pandemic preparedness and global health security are issues that require government-wide responses, experts say, as well as the leadership of a high-ranking official within the White House who is assigned only this role.

Also, I haven't read the "gameplan" but wouldn't having a mechanism in place to referee the various competing bureaucracies be useful when something like this happens and time is of the essence.

(04-02-2020 03:23 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  My question to those that want to criticize Trump now is are you on board with full criticism and legitmate action (not war) against the CHINESE REGIME.

I don't have any issue with someone that wants to criticize The President although I would say now isn't the appropriate time. More importantly, I'd highly caution criticism and wait until more conclusive outcomes are determined by actions that have/have not been taken as this is a rapidly changing situation and like the last 3-4 years most of you will come off looking as dumba$$es.

If we can prove something, by all means, do what we can against them.

And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

He's already pushed the date out to APR 30th. Re-evaluations are happening on a daily basis I imagine so picking a point to return to normal is a moving target.

That and people NEED to have a date of some sort IMHO. Or the crazy may set in even sooner than some of us think might be coming eventually anyway. Mid- March he said Easter. End of March he says, no Easter, we need to push that back a couple more weeks. Ok, it sucks, but we can hang in there another couple weeks.

Will it get pushed back further, perhaps. Perhaps even likely. But we can at least see corner before we start to turn it. Without that to "aspire" too, people may get stir crazy sooner and just aw, Eff it. I'm going about my regular routine.

I'm fine with it sliding to the right. But don't think the critics fully appreciate the options the POTUS had. The only real escalation he could have imposed was a National State of Emergency. The problem is that locks everything down to include essential services and deploys the National Guard. That response would have generated a panic nationwide that would have rendered CV-19 mitigation moot. As you stated in bold, the shelter in place order only works because the population has chosen to comply with them. There isn't enough police anywhere for enforcement unless they devolve into shooting people.

(04-02-2020 03:33 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Also, I haven't read the "gameplan" but wouldn't having a mechanism in place to referee the various competing bureaucracies be useful when something like this happens and time is of the essence.

It's more contractual T&C's as opposed to an 'if-then' diagram of how to respond should an outbreak occur.

(04-02-2020 03:18 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 03:00 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:13 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 12:05 PM)TripleA Wrote:  LOL. Would you like to see a few early quotes from some of your faves? Like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, Di Blasio, etc.

I mean... the topic being discussed is Trump, his administration, and their reactions to the coronavirus pandemic.. but since you're so adamant about derailing the conversation with "muh whatabout the democrats"....

Sure.

Share them.

You know what they all said. Just pointing out your hypocrisy for sniping at Trump. Just b/c you're a Dem. I didn't hear you ***** about the others.

I actually don't know what they all said. I have an idea of what you're referring to with respect to Biden, but as for the others, I'm clueless.

So please share them.

By the way, why I am obligated to go after "the others" because I have a problem with Trump? Unlike you, I'm not pretending to be an independent. Plus, last I checked, Cuomo wasn't the president. Nor is Pelosi, Schumer, Di Blasio, or Biden. Trump's the number one guy. He's the commander in chief.

But instead of "the buck stops here", Trump employs the "I don't take responsibility at all" mantra. You know... like a real leader would.... Nothing is his fault, is it? It's Obama's fault, it's the do nothing democrats fault, it's China's fault, it's the mean ol' media's fault...

You don't think this is chinas fault, but Trumps?

Yea, okay. That seems fair...

(04-02-2020 03:33 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 03:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Exactly WTF does the "pandemic response team" have to do with responding to a pandemic? I mean that as a serious question. I have read the vaunted pandemic response "gameplan" and it has nothing to do with responding to a pandemic. It was Marquis of Queensbury rules for refereeing turf battles among competing bureaucracies. It had absolutely nothing about actual actions to respond to pandemics.

Seriously? What does a pandemic response team have to do with responding to pandemics?

Rule #1 of government bureaucracies--pick a high-sounding name that has nothing to do with what you actually do. Not much of anything, judging by what we have of their work product--the much ballyhooed "pandemic response gameplan."

Quote:My guess having a team of experts on staff at the White House fully devoted to monitoring global health trends would have been a net positive.

My guess is that a bunch of "experts" pondering and pontificating wouldn't get a damn thing done on the ground, where the rubber meets the road, which is what is needed. You have no idea how totally useless 99% of the people inside the Beltway are. One more bureaucracy is not the solution to the problem. Best case--they might be as effective as FEMA.

Quote:Also, I haven't read the "gameplan" but wouldn't having a mechanism in place to referee the various competing bureaucracies be useful when something like this happens and time is of the essence.

You might want to read it before opining. Here:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documen...aybook.pdf

Figure out if it says anything about actual response to a pandemic. If you can find anything that does, come back and report it. And maybe, just maybe, the best way to avoid having to referee between competing bureaucracies is not to have so damn many competing bureaucracies in the first place.

This isn't related to Covid, but this is an example of the 'playbook' for pandemic response.

If anyone thinks this looks like an action plan rather than simply defining scopes, I'll listen to their explanations.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resourc...tation.pdf

(04-02-2020 03:33 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  My guess having a team of experts on staff at the White House fully devoted to monitoring global health trends would have been a net positive.

What do you think Homeland Security and the CDC do?

(04-02-2020 03:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6819703/WH-Pandemic-Playbook.pdf

I like the note on the first page about it being for public distribution

(04-02-2020 10:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:12 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Are we allowed to criticize the President's response to Covid-19?

Does that make me "Team over Country" because I think he could have done a better job?

What good does it do when we are still right in the middle of the pandemic?

It does no good at all, and the only reason you would want to right now is TDS.

You want to do some good? Then wash your hands, shut up and sit down.

The thing is we need to plant.

Yep, plant your S in front of the Tv and shut up. There is nothing the president could have done different to make things better. He's tried every avenue and yet like always those hateful Demons in Congress can't think of anything else but to obstruct. That's all they know how to do well. It's hard not to hate but man, they try men's souls.

(04-02-2020 03:18 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 03:00 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:13 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 12:05 PM)TripleA Wrote:  LOL. Would you like to see a few early quotes from some of your faves? Like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, Di Blasio, etc.

I mean... the topic being discussed is Trump, his administration, and their reactions to the coronavirus pandemic.. but since you're so adamant about derailing the conversation with "muh whatabout the democrats"....

Sure.

Share them.

You know what they all said. Just pointing out your hypocrisy for sniping at Trump. Just b/c you're a Dem. I didn't hear you ***** about the others.

I actually don't know what they all said. I have an idea of what you're referring to with respect to Biden, but as for the others, I'm clueless.

So please share them.

By the way, why I am obligated to go after "the others" because I have a problem with Trump? Unlike you, I'm not pretending to be an independent. Plus, last I checked, Cuomo wasn't the president. Nor is Pelosi, Schumer, Di Blasio, or Biden. Trump's the number one guy. He's the commander in chief.

But instead of "the buck stops here", Trump employs the "I don't take responsibility at all" mantra. You know... like a real leader would.... Nothing is his fault, is it? It's Obama's fault, it's the do nothing democrats fault, it's China's fault, it's the mean ol' media's fault...

I'm not pretending to be indy. I am. I don't vote for either major party for President. Haven't for 44 years, and last one was a Dem. I vote third party or write-in. I want both parties to die. They are ruining the country. And I get called out on here often by Pubs for criticizing Trump, saying I won't vote for him, calling out his narcissism, etc.

And just b/c I'm indy doesn't mean I can't call out one party or the other when I think they are wrong, and since 2016, the Dems have pulled a lot of crap that any objective person should call out.

I agree Trump doesn't take responsibility for anything that goes wrong. I just don't think it makes any sense for the Dems to be criticizing him in the middle of this, for political purposes. Especially when they all are guilty of poor judgment, themselves.

Biden called him a racist for the China travel ban on Jan. 31. Good thing he wasn't in charge. Thousands more would have died.

In Feb., Pelosi invited people to China Town, and told them they should come out and celebrate, that things were fine.

Schumer has been AWOL in his own state while NY became the epicenter of the pandemic.

DeBlasio was telling people things were fine in early March.

Cuomo was doing the same a little earlier, and passed up an opportunity to buy extra ventilators in 2015. Instead, he backed several projects that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, and failed.

I'm not looking up the links for you.

(04-02-2020 10:57 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:45 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:27 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:12 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Are we allowed to criticize the President's response to Covid-19?
Does that make me "Team over Country" because I think he could have done a better job?

Depends on whether you actually have some understanding of the situation and some specific criticisms to offer based upon that understanding, or you are simply parroting "Orange Man Bad" because that's all you know.

So, what are your specifics?

I think the measures he has put in place now are generally okay. I'm glad he reversed course and kept social distancing policies in place until the end of the month. My criticism mostly centers on how he spent the first few months downplaying the crisis. Trump treated it so nonchalantly that it put a false sense of security in a lot of people which in turn may have accelerated its spread in the early days.

Damn... Everyone did that. In fact, many on the Dem side took it even further than Trump. Didn't fvckheads like Pelosi, Schumer, Biden, Durbin and ALLLLLL the other Dem leadership call him a RACIST because he shut down international travel to CHINA? How about wanting to secure our southern boarder when these assclowns wanted us to keep them open to illegal immigration??? Don't you think it was HIGHLY IRRESPONSIBLE to want porous borders for any and all poor and destitute people carrying DISEASES???

Seriously...you guys are really into some 1984 sh!t. You're freaking rewriting history - LOL!!

Riddle me this BE. Why is our "Fourth Branch of Gov't" providing us with Chinese Communist propaganda instead of reporting on what is really going on over there? Do you think it's POSSIBLE that the reason we didn't have that great head start was because the Chinese communists and the WHO DOWNPLAYED it to the world???

JFC you guys are stupid.

I cannot begin to state how much I love this post ....and Imma not gonna drop f-bombs this time....

it's about dadgum time you guys got pissed the (can't say that word) off.....

#hockeyPuckinA!

(04-02-2020 02:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  My question to those that want to criticize Trump now is are you on board with full criticism and legitmate action (not war) against the CHINESE REGIME.

I don't have any issue with someone that wants to criticize The President although I would say now isn't the appropriate time. More importantly, I'd highly caution criticism and wait until more conclusive outcomes are determined by actions that have/have not been taken as this is a rapidly changing situation and like the last 3-4 years most of you will come off looking as dumba$$es.

If we can prove something, by all means, do what we can against them.

And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

He's already pushed the date out to APR 30th. Re-evaluations are happening on a daily basis I imagine so picking a point to return to normal is a moving target.

Additionally, trump really has no power to open back up anything anyway. That's up to the individual companies and states really. I won't be going back to my office and therefore buying gas and eating at my work's cafe until they say I can come back in the office. After today, I can't even get into my office for ANY reason short of life and death.

(04-03-2020 06:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  My question to those that want to criticize Trump now is are you on board with full criticism and legitmate action (not war) against the CHINESE REGIME.

I don't have any issue with someone that wants to criticize The President although I would say now isn't the appropriate time. More importantly, I'd highly caution criticism and wait until more conclusive outcomes are determined by actions that have/have not been taken as this is a rapidly changing situation and like the last 3-4 years most of you will come off looking as dumba$$es.

If we can prove something, by all means, do what we can against them.

And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

He's already pushed the date out to APR 30th. Re-evaluations are happening on a daily basis I imagine so picking a point to return to normal is a moving target.

Additionally, trump really has no power to open back up anything anyway. That's up to the individual companies and states really. I won't be going back to my office and therefore buying gas and eating at my work's cafe until they say I can come back in the office. After today, I can't even get into my office for ANY reason short of life and death.

That's true. But if the POTUS doesn't extend the stay at home order then many businesses may make a determination that it is ok to return to normal operations.

(04-03-2020 06:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:53 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:43 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 02:38 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  My question to those that want to criticize Trump now is are you on board with full criticism and legitmate action (not war) against the CHINESE REGIME.

I don't have any issue with someone that wants to criticize The President although I would say now isn't the appropriate time. More importantly, I'd highly caution criticism and wait until more conclusive outcomes are determined by actions that have/have not been taken as this is a rapidly changing situation and like the last 3-4 years most of you will come off looking as dumba$$es.

If we can prove something, by all means, do what we can against them.

And I think current criticism during this crisis might actually be a good thing if it makes him change to the correct policy such as abandoning his "aspiration" to be open by Easter, etc.

He's already pushed the date out to APR 30th. Re-evaluations are happening on a daily basis I imagine so picking a point to return to normal is a moving target.

Additionally, trump really has no power to open back up anything anyway. That's up to the individual companies and states really. I won't be going back to my office and therefore buying gas and eating at my work's cafe until they say I can come back in the office. After today, I can't even get into my office for ANY reason short of life and death.

welcome to the 'police state' you've been pining for......

welcome to your hell...

nuts zongo says, "fk this bs....I'm getting ready to hit the field again!"

talk about somebody that doesn't miss corpshite 'murica.....that'd be my arse....

#hockeyPuckThisBS

(04-02-2020 10:30 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:20 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(04-02-2020 10:12 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Are we allowed to criticize the President's response to Covid-19?

Does that make me "Team over Country" because I think he could have done a better job?

What good does it do when we are still right in the middle of the pandemic?

It does no good at all, and the only reason you would want to right now is TDS.

You want to do some good? Then wash your hands, shut up and sit down.

Did you tell Donny to STFU back in 2014?

That is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

You have to have a scorching case of TDS to think those two tweets from 6 years ago are even remtoly relevant or important to the current situation.

But when you are suffering from the advanced stages of TDS, you have lost all ability to reason and they actually seem like a big deal to you.

Just ask someone like me who is NOT suffering from TDS and did not even vote for Trump. Its meaningless nonsense and he has done about as good a job as anyone would have done. In fact he moved faster on shutting down people coming in and some other things way faster than any other politician in the country would have. Most would have been paralyzed with political fear of being called a racist and waited on the media to tell them its ok.

Bingo!