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Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
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fsquid Online
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Post: #41
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
It's virus, we have places and offices over there that have been shut for over a week.
02-25-2020 09:12 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-25-2020 08:02 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(02-25-2020 07:51 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It's been overbought. Unrealistic mania gets corrected eventually. Look for more big drops to come.

Exciting times for you huh? Bet you wish this was July or August though.

Chicken Bernie Little Disease! The market isn't even in correction range yet.

As to China, any American Corporation that thought building their infrastructure for them was a good idea was just plain stupid. You never put capital assets into a government which by law can nationalize your holdings at any provocation. When your labor costs are too cheap to be true, there is always a hook.
02-25-2020 09:18 AM
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Post: #43
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-25-2020 07:51 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It's been overbought. Unrealistic mania gets corrected eventually. Look for more big drops to come.

What? Nothing fundamental has changed. This is driven purely by the news. NEVER buy/sell based on a particular day's headlines. Heck, I'm looking to pick some stock up on pay day. Market is at a discount right now.
02-26-2020 08:58 AM
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Post: #44
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
This is another of those times where our oceans protect us. It used to take longer than the incubation period of an illness to get here; now it takes hours, but we can severely restrict access... especially as it would generally take a monitored point of entry.

Doesn't remotely make us immune, but it certainly protects us more than Asia and even Europe are protected.

I say this because 'whatever' happens in China certainly impacts us and of course the DJIA and S&P as those are mostly multi-national corporations with at least SOME exposure directly to China....

but...

having to wait a month or more for that car made in China, suddenly that slightly more expensive one made in the US looks better. Bad for investors... not as bad for American workers
02-26-2020 01:47 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 08:58 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(02-25-2020 07:51 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It's been overbought. Unrealistic mania gets corrected eventually. Look for more big drops to come.

What? Nothing fundamental has changed. This is driven purely by the news. NEVER buy/sell based on a particular day's headlines. Heck, I'm looking to pick some stock up on pay day. Market is at a discount right now.

Historic valuation levels would indicate there is no "discount" right now. Yes, they are lower priced than yesterday---but by historical standards valuations remain on the extreme high end of the range.
02-26-2020 01:50 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 01:50 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 08:58 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(02-25-2020 07:51 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  It's been overbought. Unrealistic mania gets corrected eventually. Look for more big drops to come.

What? Nothing fundamental has changed. This is driven purely by the news. NEVER buy/sell based on a particular day's headlines. Heck, I'm looking to pick some stock up on pay day. Market is at a discount right now.

Historic valuation levels would indicate there is no "discount" right now. Yes, they are lower priced than yesterday---but by historical standards valuations remain on the extreme high end of the range.

yes, I get what you are saying and you are correct. I am going on what the market was before the most recent sell off. I don't play the market and only buy long term. I do like it when those biweekly purchases come on a dip though.
02-26-2020 02:20 PM
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ECUGrad07 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?
02-26-2020 02:21 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 02:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?

my post from the previous page.

(02-24-2020 08:17 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Count me as a conspiracy theorist on this if you want, but I'm firmly in the camp that this was a bio weapon that got out. Not only that, but it's a bio weapon that is doing exactly what it is starting to do - wreak economic havoc. Designed to scare the world enough that markets would crash and cripple economic rivals. I dont necessarily think china meant to let it out now, but who knows. Their economy is crashing hard without the virus, this could be their way of dragging us down with them.

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Either a virus designed to cripple economies got out by mistake, or China knows their economy is collapsing on it's own and the easiest way to bring the rest of the world down with them was letting this virus out in China and watch it ripple through the rest of the world economy. I wouldn't put it past them.
02-26-2020 02:43 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 02:43 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 02:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?

my post from the previous page.

(02-24-2020 08:17 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Count me as a conspiracy theorist on this if you want, but I'm firmly in the camp that this was a bio weapon that got out. Not only that, but it's a bio weapon that is doing exactly what it is starting to do - wreak economic havoc. Designed to scare the world enough that markets would crash and cripple economic rivals. I dont necessarily think china meant to let it out now, but who knows. Their economy is crashing hard without the virus, this could be their way of dragging us down with them.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Either a virus designed to cripple economies got out by mistake, or China knows their economy is collapsing on it's own and the easiest way to bring the rest of the world down with them was letting this virus out in China and watch it ripple through the rest of the world economy. I wouldn't put it past them.

No way it was planned. This mess is likely to have a very bad LONG term effect on China as manufacturers realize there is significant risk in having supply chains in countries like China. I suspect one result will be to spur even more companies to move more of their supply chain back to the US. Frankly, if this virus was manufactured---I'd bet it was designed to keep a population under control. Two places where it would likely be very effective would be Hong Kong and Iran---both places where you have long running growing demonstrations. It is interesting to note---you have outbreaks in both Hong Kong and Iran.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2020 03:25 PM by Attackcoog.)
02-26-2020 03:19 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
yeah... no way it was planned.

If they'd wanted it to get out, they would have infected 5 people, had them cross the borders in some form of quarantine, and then leave the area for their targets from those other places. No way they cause so much damage to themselves on purpose.

The disease could have been an economic bio-weapon, but if so... it's one in a fairly long line of similar ones. Why wouldn't they have also created a vaccine for themselves? Very smart in some ways, insanely foolish in others if it was a weapon
02-26-2020 03:26 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 03:26 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  yeah... no way it was planned.

If they'd wanted it to get out, they would have infected 5 people, had them cross the borders in some form of quarantine, and then leave the area for their targets from those other places. No way they cause so much damage to themselves on purpose.

The disease could have been an economic bio-weapon, but if so... it's one in a fairly long line of similar ones. Why wouldn't they have also created a vaccine for themselves? Very smart in some ways, insanely foolish in others if it was a weapon

Excellent point. If its an economic weapon---you unleash it on others---not yourself....and you dont unleash it until you have a cure.
02-26-2020 03:29 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 03:26 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  yeah... no way it was planned.

If they'd wanted it to get out, they would have infected 5 people, had them cross the borders in some form of quarantine, and then leave the area for their targets from those other places. No way they cause so much damage to themselves on purpose.

The disease could have been an economic bio-weapon, but if so... it's one in a fairly long line of similar ones. Why wouldn't they have also created a vaccine for themselves? Very smart in some ways, insanely foolish in others if it was a weapon

I don't think we want to go down this road of speculation at this time. But obviously it could have been the release of a weaponized virus. But just as obviously it could have been an accidental release of a weaponized virus. It hits what most viruses hit, the elderly and the young. The elderly in any nation state is part of the overhead and not part of the production. The very young in an overpopulated area can't be controlled effectively without drawing the ire of the people upon the government. Regardless if you are a capitalist or communist your family is your family and I have known former Chinese communists who have naturalized and sacrifice greatly to try to bring their families out of that system.

So far all indications but one is that this is either a natural mutation from eating an obscure meat in a wet market, though that has fallen under suspicion by those researching the disease external China, or it could well be the accidental release from a biological warfare research center located in Wuhan.

If so outbreaks in North Korea (denied but believed to be real) and South Korea are both believable due to shared weapons and political ties with the North and manufacturing ties with the South. Hong Kong is also believable as in Iran who is a weapons trading partner and who also likely receives fissile material from the Chinese.

The cases in Northern Italy near the Alps are the real mystery here. They likely have a plausible explanation but if you wanted to release a biological pathogen in a less scrutinized and secure area that would have access to the rest of Europe this is a great spot in that due to the nature of the EU travel is easily accessed, it wouldn't be an area likely to be first monitored for the spread of the disease and with normal portability of people in business within the EU it reaches everywhere and the places it reaches aren't on quarantine from the U.S..

And as to the spread of the virus in China, real pandemics strike across class lines, all ages, and kill indiscriminately. If there are no deaths among the elderly Chinese leadership it may be a tell that there is a vaccine and that the government counted 2% to be acceptable losses to release the pathogen with plausible deniability that would make a unilateral strike from an adversarial power highly unlikely.

Also, it means that China is in recovery when the other economic zones are in shut down, so what they lose initially they regain exponentially when they are up and running while everyone else is down and if it eliminates the elderly and reduces a little of their population what have they lost?

If the U.S. loses close to a year of its productivity the dollar's value as World Reserve Currency drops significantly at a time when Gold is going up, and China has been one of the major purchasers of Gold over the last 3 decades that helps China. They have plans to back the renminbi with 10% gold backing. So as Gold goes up a renminbi backed by Gold would also rise against the value of a fiat currency like the Dollar which is backed by GDP as much as anything.

If the dollar loses credibility while the renminbi gains strength then replacing the dollar as the World Reserve Currency becomes more likely and if that happens it inflates expenses in the U.S. by over 30% overnight and makes China the center of global trade. And with the EU in a state of flux and with Italy being the largest debtor in the EU in a position of shut down that could collapse the value of the Euro and that too becomes a motive. Without Great Britain, Germany cannot cover the debt of Italy, Spain, Greece, and Portugal, nor can the Northern European members.

So if you want a motive there you have it. If you want a strategy and explanation as to why they would permit this within their own country, you have it.

Does that mean any of this is planned? Absolutely not, but we would be foolish to dismiss the idea out of hand.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2020 03:59 PM by JRsec.)
02-26-2020 03:47 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 02:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?

Just said something very similar to the Mrs. in our daily phone call.

Told her I wasn't buying this "fresh meat market" bullspit, and that moreso than the tariffs that I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was an intentional release of a chemical weapons agent in an attempt to tank the worlds economies before our elections.

No doubt the commie regime in China (who don't give a damn about their own people anyway) would prefer another commie in the WH in this country. Who's going to go easier on their kindred spirit brothers and sisters?

You know they want a second Trump term even less than Joy bahar.
02-26-2020 04:18 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
One thing is clear---this is going to be an ongoing issue with the market because on any given day, the entire complexion of the domestic affect could change on a dime.
02-26-2020 04:22 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 01:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  ...having to wait a month or more for that car made in China, suddenly that slightly more expensive one made in the US looks better. Bad for investors... not as bad for American workers

Just a slight problem with that. Tesla is the only US car maker that makes its cars entirely in the US...and they don't even use all American made parts.

All the other US car makers rely heavily on imported parts and cars made in other countries. Granted most are from Mexico and Canada, but when dealing with international trade, it's all going to be effected by these virus fears.
(This post was last modified: 02-26-2020 04:36 PM by Redwingtom.)
02-26-2020 04:34 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 04:34 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 01:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  ...having to wait a month or more for that car made in China, suddenly that slightly more expensive one made in the US looks better. Bad for investors... not as bad for American workers

Just a slight problem with that. Tesla is the only US car maker that makes its cars entirely in the US...and they don't even use all American made parts.

All the other US car makers rely heavily on imported parts and cars made in other countries. Granted most are from Mexico and Canada, but when dealing with international trade, it's all going to be effected by these virus fears.

I first wrote it talking about a cheap spatula... but worried someone would make the pedantic point that we probably don't manufacture them here either.

I guess I should have talked about how (relatively) good this would be for the 'My Pillow' guy, but as i understand he's a political firebrand for some reason, I didn't want to go there.

The fears over Mexico and Germany regarding Corona (at least at this point) are an incredibly small fraction of the fears over Asia. We haven't (yet) quarantined Mexican tourists nor cancelled German flights.

I could have gone to the trouble of finding a single specific product that is either made in China or made in the US for the US market, or saying that goods from Mexico or Germany suddenly look a little better, and maybe that might get to the point where only goods created here are sold here in an actual global pandemic.... but I honestly didn't think anyone would bother with such trivialities when the point I was making was so clear.

Silly me

How about Steel?
(This post was last modified: 02-27-2020 10:22 AM by Hambone10.)
02-27-2020 10:22 AM
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Post: #57
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 03:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 02:43 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 02:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?

my post from the previous page.

(02-24-2020 08:17 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Count me as a conspiracy theorist on this if you want, but I'm firmly in the camp that this was a bio weapon that got out. Not only that, but it's a bio weapon that is doing exactly what it is starting to do - wreak economic havoc. Designed to scare the world enough that markets would crash and cripple economic rivals. I dont necessarily think china meant to let it out now, but who knows. Their economy is crashing hard without the virus, this could be their way of dragging us down with them.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Either a virus designed to cripple economies got out by mistake, or China knows their economy is collapsing on it's own and the easiest way to bring the rest of the world down with them was letting this virus out in China and watch it ripple through the rest of the world economy. I wouldn't put it past them.

No way it was planned. This mess is likely to have a very bad LONG term effect on China as manufacturers realize there is significant risk in having supply chains in countries like China. I suspect one result will be to spur even more companies to move more of their supply chain back to the US. Frankly, if this virus was manufactured---I'd bet it was designed to keep a population under control. Two places where it would likely be very effective would be Hong Kong and Iran---both places where you have long running growing demonstrations. It is interesting to note---you have outbreaks in both Hong Kong and Iran.

Those that are comparing China's economy with a "normal" country's economy are all wrong. The Chinese government is composed of basically one person and his close allies. The same guy who has bragged about killing off enemies and protagonists. As long as the "ruler" and is allies are not affected who cares? So if a half a million people die directly and another half a million die indirectly afterwards, who cares? It is a COMMUNIST COUNTRY ruled by a "ruler for life". Xi Jinping doesn't give a flip about "his economy" or "his workers" as long as he is taken care of. Which of course he is and will be as long as he is alive. Once it became known the Chinese refused our help, it became obvious. Also, how is that Protest in Hong Kong going? Anyone who dismisses this as planned is naive.
02-27-2020 10:39 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-26-2020 04:34 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 01:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  ...having to wait a month or more for that car made in China, suddenly that slightly more expensive one made in the US looks better. Bad for investors... not as bad for American workers

Just a slight problem with that. Tesla is the only US car maker that makes its cars entirely in the US...and they don't even use all American made parts.

All the other US car makers rely heavily on imported parts and cars made in other countries. Granted most are from Mexico and Canada, but when dealing with international trade, it's all going to be effected by these virus fears.

Not nit-picking, but I'm pretty sure all Hyundais sold in the US are built entirely in Alabama. They may import parts from S. Korea though.
02-27-2020 10:55 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-27-2020 10:39 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 03:19 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 02:43 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 02:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  Any thoughts on the Coronavirus being a retaliation against the US economy for the tariffs?

my post from the previous page.

(02-24-2020 08:17 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  Count me as a conspiracy theorist on this if you want, but I'm firmly in the camp that this was a bio weapon that got out. Not only that, but it's a bio weapon that is doing exactly what it is starting to do - wreak economic havoc. Designed to scare the world enough that markets would crash and cripple economic rivals. I dont necessarily think china meant to let it out now, but who knows. Their economy is crashing hard without the virus, this could be their way of dragging us down with them.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Either a virus designed to cripple economies got out by mistake, or China knows their economy is collapsing on it's own and the easiest way to bring the rest of the world down with them was letting this virus out in China and watch it ripple through the rest of the world economy. I wouldn't put it past them.

No way it was planned. This mess is likely to have a very bad LONG term effect on China as manufacturers realize there is significant risk in having supply chains in countries like China. I suspect one result will be to spur even more companies to move more of their supply chain back to the US. Frankly, if this virus was manufactured---I'd bet it was designed to keep a population under control. Two places where it would likely be very effective would be Hong Kong and Iran---both places where you have long running growing demonstrations. It is interesting to note---you have outbreaks in both Hong Kong and Iran.

Those that are comparing China's economy with a "normal" country's economy are all wrong. The Chinese government is composed of basically one person and his close allies. The same guy who has bragged about killing off enemies and protagonists. As long as the "ruler" and is allies are not affected who cares? So if a half a million people die directly and another half a million die indirectly afterwards, who cares? It is a COMMUNIST COUNTRY ruled by a "ruler for life". Xi Jinping doesn't give a flip about "his economy" or "his workers" as long as he is taken care of. Which of course he is and will be as long as he is alive. Once it became known the Chinese refused our help, it became obvious. Also, how is that Protest in Hong Kong going? Anyone who dismisses this as planned is naive.

Chinese leadership is certainly cold-blooded enough to have planned this. I would put the chance of that at close to .01% right now, but when dealing with communist leaders .01% is enough of a chance to at least think it through.

I find it interesting that the most severe outbreaks seem to be among traditional chinese 'enemies' or in places that they stand to gain the most through economic and political collapse.

S.Korea, N. Korea, Japan, Iran.

Longshot that it was intentional, but not worth totally dismissing.
02-27-2020 11:00 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Market falls 2/24 - Virus or Communist?
(02-27-2020 10:55 AM)200yrs2late Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 04:34 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-26-2020 01:47 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  ...having to wait a month or more for that car made in China, suddenly that slightly more expensive one made in the US looks better. Bad for investors... not as bad for American workers

Just a slight problem with that. Tesla is the only US car maker that makes its cars entirely in the US...and they don't even use all American made parts.

All the other US car makers rely heavily on imported parts and cars made in other countries. Granted most are from Mexico and Canada, but when dealing with international trade, it's all going to be effected by these virus fears.

Not nit-picking, but I'm pretty sure all Hyundai's sold in the US are built entirely in Alabama. They may import parts from S. Korea though.

Perhaps, but they're not a US car maker. 03-wink
02-27-2020 11:21 AM
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