4th of July... Independence!

We join the growing independent ranks in football and drive interest in an "East Coast" conference:

Stage 1: Independent Football, if we can't get an A-10 invite we stay in the CAA-CAA for a while longer while (hopefully) fixing our frickin MBB program.

Football games include H/H with:

Current Independents-
UConn
UMass
Liberty
New Mexico State
Maybe mix of Army/BYU

Mix of Potential Future East Coast Conferencemates-
App St
ODU
Buffalo
Marshall
Charlotte
Ga Southern
ECU
Navy
Temple

Stage 2: As an FBS club member, drive the regionalization of G5 football:

App St
Army
Buffalo
Charlotte
Delaware
ECU
Ga Southern
JMU
Marshall
Navy
ODU
Temple
UConn
UMass

If I had a nickel

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but does being an FBS independent improve much? I guess we'd be free to get our own TV deals, but isn't that even worse in terms of getting conference alliances?

Also, for that matter, if you get 8 or 10 independent teams, what would the pros and cons be for those teams to form a conference? If nothing else, I'd think the certainty of scheduling would be nice, and maybe a collective TV deal?

(06-25-2019 01:18 PM)94computerguy Wrote:  I'm all for thinking outside the box, but does being an FBS independent improve much? I guess we'd be free to get our own TV deals, but isn't that even worse in terms of getting conference alliances?

Also, for that matter, if you get 8 or 10 independent teams, what would the pros and cons be for those teams to form a conference? If nothing else, I'd think the certainty of scheduling would be nice, and maybe a collective TV deal?

Sure, independent isn't a destination, just a means to an end. This issue we have now is the longer we stay FCS, the bigger the gap between us and where we should be continues to grow.

20 years ago we were "even" with a number of schools that have since went FBS (UCF, USF, UConn, WKU, N Texas, Middle Tenn, Marshall, FAU, etc, etc).

10 years ago we were "ahead" of some schools (NDSU, ODU, Coastal Carolina, Ga State, etc) and "even" with others (App St, Ga So, UMass, Liberty, Texas State, etc).

Not only is that time/opportunity lost to close the gap with our targeted peers, but it has allowed a large number of schools to queue up ahead of us.

Joining a conference with ECU, Navy, or Temple wouldn't have seem as big a stretch 20 years ago, but now when new teams are being looked at to join them they are going to view teams that used to be even/behind us as much closer options.

Waiting another 10 years? We'll be sitting around with our d#$ks in our hands wondering why Kennesaw State is in the same conference as App St, and we're signing home and homes with Hampton.

(06-26-2019 11:51 AM)2Buck Wrote:  10 years ago we were "ahead" of some schools (NDSU, ODU, Coastal Carolina, Ga State, etc) and "even" with others (App St, Ga So, UMass, Liberty, Texas State, etc).

Ah yes, no longer ahead of Georgia State who went 2-10 in the Sunbelt last year including a nailbiter win against FCS Kennesaw St.

No longer even with Liberty, who as an independent last year had the "freedom" to schedule New Mexico and a home and away with New Mexico State...all in the same year. Thrilling.

No longer even with Texas State, who has 4 FBS wins in the last 3 years (one of which is against sorry-ass Georgia State).

(06-26-2019 12:13 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:51 AM)2Buck Wrote:  10 years ago we were "ahead" of some schools (NDSU, ODU, Coastal Carolina, Ga State, etc) and "even" with others (App St, Ga So, UMass, Liberty, Texas State, etc).

Ah yes, no longer ahead of Georgia State who went 2-10 in the Sunbelt last year including a nailbiter win against FCS Kennesaw St.

No longer even with Liberty, who as an independent last year had the "freedom" to schedule New Mexico and a home and away with New Mexico State...all in the same year. Thrilling.

No longer even with Texas State, who has 4 FBS wins in the last 3 years (one of which is against sorry-ass Georgia State).

I get your point, and your TX st, fake GSU, LU examples certainly apply (although LU has bought themselves some decent home games, but that’s a whole other story). But we all (including you) get his point too. We are not going straight to the AAC from fcs..schools that were fcs with us or didn’t even have programs too many years ago are more well-positioned to go “P6” . . . But that horse has been almost beaten to death- the pros/cons of staying fcs etc. But tell me BJK, what is your preference? Seriously, I am sure we have discussed it pre-game over the years, but for some odd reason I can’t remember.....

My major hangup is that I personally have very little interest in a situation where your team has no effective path to winning a national championship. UCF shows me all I have to know about G5. Give me FCS national championship runs every year and I'll be a happy camper until/unless (neither of these will happen in the foreseeable future) A) they reclassify and G5 has its own national championship game or B) all conference champions get an auto-bid into the playoffs.

I get that there would be bigger marquee matchups, but that doesn't move the needle for me like it does others. And heck, it's not like we've been perennial lambs to the slaughter against our FBS opponents as currently constituted. Playing NC State pretty close was worthwhile. Throttling ECU was a blast. The SMU win was pretty fun. 21-16.

Played hypothetical on that with Hyper the other day (and feel free to chime in with your opinion) - what would you be more excited about? JMU @ WVU exactly as it's occurring in August? Or JMU vs. WVU in Memphis for the Motor City Bowl? My answer is the game upcoming. If we beat WVU in a meaningless bowl game where their star player(s) probably sit out to protect from pre-draft injury, and they play the next year's projected starter to 'get him some reps'...who cares who wins what's basically a scrimmage? If we win this upcoming game, we beat a squad that knows they need a win because it counts.

(06-26-2019 01:14 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  My major hangup is that I personally have very little interest in a situation where your team has no effective path to winning a national championship. UCF shows me all I have to know about G5. Give me FCS national championship runs every year and I'll be a happy camper until/unless (neither of these will happen in the foreseeable future) A) they reclassify and G5 has its own national championship game or B) all conference champions get an auto-bid into the playoffs.

I get that there would be bigger marquee matchups, but that doesn't move the needle for me like it does others. And heck, it's not like we've been perennial lambs to the slaughter against our FBS opponents as currently constituted. Playing NC State pretty close was worthwhile. Throttling ECU was a blast. The SMU win was pretty fun. 21-16.

Played hypothetical on that with Hyper the other day (and feel free to chime in with your opinion) - what would you be more excited about? JMU @ WVU exactly as it's occurring in August? Or JMU vs. WVU in Memphis for the Motor City Bowl? My answer is the game upcoming. If we beat WVU in a meaningless bowl game where their star player(s) probably sit out to protect from pre-draft injury, and they play the next year's projected starter to 'get him some reps'...who cares who wins what's basically a scrimmage? If we win this upcoming game, we beat a squad that knows they need a win because it counts.

I feel like the most used counterpoint that people will post is that the only way for WVU to play JMU in Harrisonburg is to be FBS. That's cool too, but our season every year isn't going to go UVA, VT, WVU, ODU, Maryland, and UNC at home; it's going to look like WVU, Liberty, <directional> Michigan, Georgia St, and Rice. The latter doesn't get me hyped any more than say UD, UR, WM, Nova, Towson etc coming to Harrisonburg. Until something radical happens, the G5 landscape is yawns.

(06-26-2019 12:39 PM)jmutoml757 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 12:13 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 11:51 AM)2Buck Wrote:  10 years ago we were "ahead" of some schools (NDSU, ODU, Coastal Carolina, Ga State, etc) and "even" with others (App St, Ga So, UMass, Liberty, Texas State, etc).

Ah yes, no longer ahead of Georgia State who went 2-10 in the Sunbelt last year including a nailbiter win against FCS Kennesaw St.

No longer even with Liberty, who as an independent last year had the "freedom" to schedule New Mexico and a home and away with New Mexico State...all in the same year. Thrilling.

No longer even with Texas State, who has 4 FBS wins in the last 3 years (one of which is against sorry-ass Georgia State).

I get your point, and your TX st, fake GSU, LU examples certainly apply (although LU has bought themselves some decent home games, but that’s a whole other story). But we all (including you) get his point too. We are not going straight to the AAC from fcs..schools that were fcs with us or didn’t even have programs too many years ago are more well-positioned to go “P6” . . . But that horse has been almost beaten to death- the pros/cons of staying fcs etc. But tell me BJK, what is your preference? Seriously, I am sure we have discussed it pre-game over the years, but for some odd reason I can’t remember.....

Correct, I'm not stating they are playing at a higher level. I'm stating that in the eyes of AAC leaders they are playing on a higher level.

We should actually be celebrating the fact that those schools are unsuccessful. No one here should be viewing that as an indicator of how we'd perform at that level, but instead be glad we'd have that much of an easier time plowing through them on our way up to bigger and better things. How to better prove we're not Ga State or ODU than crushing them head to head?

The more things out of our control the worse off we are. The B1G invited are horrible Rutgers program to join because of perception/market, and not because of them dominating their conference. I could easily see AAC leaders bring up Ga State and ODU due to markets vs them winning their conferences, but we'd have a better shot if we're in there dominating them instead of playing at a perceived 2 levels down.

Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

2Buck, I definitely misread your argument, and don't have any issues with the point you're trying to make. I get the "means to an end" argument, but by my personal definition of having a plausible path to a national title, the "end" would have to be P5. And that would realistically mean, what? 15 years of no path to a championship? Longer? Ever? That doesn't work for me.

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

(06-26-2019 01:33 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  2Buck, I definitely misread your argument, and don't have any issues with the point you're trying to make. I get the "means to an end" argument, but by my personal definition of having a plausible path to a national title, the "end" would have to be P5. And that would realistically mean, what? 15 years of no path to a championship? Longer? Ever? That doesn't work for me.

I get your point as well.

Having experienced JMU in the late 80s/early 90s (and seeing how our MBB was on a track to compete at a national level like our women's programs), I don't see much difference between winning a watered down FCS championship and playing in the ODAC. In my day there was little difference between Kennesaw State/North Dakota State and Bridgewater. Each decade it seems we're losing traction to former community colleges and have to deal with indignities like losing playoff games to Colgate.

IDK, if I were 30 I'd probably be more patient and understanding. But for 25 years I've watched JMU's almost limitless potential in MBB and football underachieve.

Bridgeforth is the perfect allegory for our football program: Exciting and impressive, but only half way done with little hope of reaching its full glory.

(06-26-2019 01:38 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

Winning the FCS championship is pretty much 1 out of 130 as well. And you're right, we're not UCF. We're not ODU or ECU or Ga State. We're better.

(06-26-2019 02:16 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Winning the FCS championship is pretty much 1 out of 130 as well.

What I was clumsily trying to say was that it's an incredibly rare circumstance. Granted, small sample size, but since the College Football Playoff was instituted in 2014 (so 5 seasons), 2017 UCF and 2018 UCF (not counting the useless bowl game) are the only two teams to finish the season with a perfect record and not make the playoffs. That's 2 out of 650.

If you want to go back to beginning of BCS in 2006, add 4 teams by my math (which is generous because you'd absolutely get a couple of those in a semifinal).

Just saying that I don't know how much merit there is to discussing an exceedingly rare situation as a benefit --- when they don't even make it to the playoffs.

(06-26-2019 01:38 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

We're still not the best in the nation after winning the FCS championship lol we're just the best of the scrubs and ndsu. The playoff runs are exciting but I'd rather win a bowl game against a P5 school where I may know someone who actually went there/people have heard of. Not to mention playing better competition every week with the occasional P5 and putting ourselves in a better position for further growth.

(06-26-2019 04:18 PM)James Madison Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:38 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

We're still not the best in the nation after winning the FCS championship lol we're just the best of the scrubs and ndsu. The playoff runs are exciting but I'd rather win a bowl game against a P5 school where I may know someone who actually went there/people have heard of. Not to mention playing better competition every week with the occasional P5 and putting ourselves in a better position for further growth.

Dreams are nice. Have you looked at where G5 bowl games are played, and who they are contracted to play? I think you’ll find G5 bowl games aren’t playing many P5 teams.

Oh, and JMU already typically plays a P5 (always on the road of course) during the regular season. A move to a G5 conference and a 12 game regular season isn’t going to change that formula much. JMU might get an extra P5 on the road, and the rare P5 at home on a 2 for 1, but mostly as a G5 team you’re going to be scheduling other G5 teams from your conference and the same one or two FCS teams. Ho hum.

(06-26-2019 05:29 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 04:18 PM)James Madison Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:38 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

We're still not the best in the nation after winning the FCS championship lol we're just the best of the scrubs and ndsu. The playoff runs are exciting but I'd rather win a bowl game against a P5 school where I may know someone who actually went there/people have heard of. Not to mention playing better competition every week with the occasional P5 and putting ourselves in a better position for further growth.

Dreams are nice. Have you looked at where G5 bowl games are played, and who they are contracted to play? I think you’ll find G5 bowl games aren’t playing many P5 teams.

Oh, and JMU already typically plays a P5 (always on the road of course) during the regular season. A move to a G5 conference and a 12 game regular season isn’t going to change that formula much. JMU might get an extra P5 on the road, and the rare P5 at home on a 2 for 1, but mostly as a G5 team you’re going to be scheduling other G5 teams from your conference and the same one or two FCS teams. Ho hum.

There are 331 posts on our WVU thread, I seriously doubt if we were opening the season in Fargo that we'd top that. Think about this for a moment. A game against the very top of FCS (I said in Fargo trying to make an equal comparison rather than at home) can draw as much attention as an average P5. I believe even the game against ECU a G5 drew more attention from JMU fans than would a game in Fargo. I'm not talking about the number of JMU fans attending, I'm only talking about the interest surrounding the game. Lets say a game in Fargo could equal to a game in Morganton, Greenville, or Raleigh, you must admit that would be the only FCS team that could come close to exciting our fan base the way the past three FBS games have. Thus the reason we need to move up.

(06-26-2019 05:29 PM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 04:18 PM)James Madison Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:38 PM)bjk3047 Wrote:  

(06-26-2019 01:32 PM)2Buck Wrote:  Only posters on this board would think anyone at UCF would choose FCS trophies to the recent success they've had.

A) UCF is an obvious 1 out of 130 teams case. B) We're not UCF. Of course they think their success is great. C) Are you implying that I'm not entitled to a completely reasonable opinion that I'm not interested in being in a position where my team can't be the best in the nation? I mean really, REALLY, how honestly excited is UCF about their hilarious champions' parade?

We're still not the best in the nation after winning the FCS championship lol we're just the best of the scrubs and ndsu. The playoff runs are exciting but I'd rather win a bowl game against a P5 school where I may know someone who actually went there/people have heard of. Not to mention playing better competition every week with the occasional P5 and putting ourselves in a better position for further growth.

Dreams are nice. Have you looked at where G5 bowl games are played, and who they are contracted to play? I think you’ll find G5 bowl games aren’t playing many P5 teams.

Oh, and JMU already typically plays a P5 (always on the road of course) during the regular season. A move to a G5 conference and a 12 game regular season isn’t going to change that formula much. JMU might get an extra P5 on the road, and the rare P5 at home on a 2 for 1, but mostly as a G5 team you’re going to be scheduling other G5 teams from your conference and the same one or two FCS teams. Ho hum.

I'd still much rather play odu, marshall, uab, and charlotte than albany, new hampshire, rhode island, and colgate. They would make for better games while improving our national image by playing at a higher level. Imagine the excitement that scheduling va tech at bridgeforth would bring. IMO it would be the most anticipated game in the history of the program. ODU is playing uva, va tech, and ecu next season ooc. Sure we play wvu but some of our other ooc games are against the powerhouse teams in St Francis Pa and Morgan State.

(06-26-2019 10:00 PM)James Madison Wrote:  I'd still much rather play odu, marshall, uab, and charlotte than albany, new hampshire, rhode island, and colgate. They would make for better games while improving our national image by playing at a higher level. Imagine the excitement that scheduling va tech at bridgeforth would bring. IMO it would be the most anticipated game in the history of the program. ODU is playing uva, va tech, and ecu next season ooc. Sure we play wvu but some of our other ooc games are against the powerhouse teams in St Francis Pa and Morgan State.

Honest questions:
Do you honestly think playing UAB and Charlotte “improve our national image?”
Do you think the majority of JMU fans give a flying flip about UAB and Charlotte as opposed to Albany and New Hampshire?
Given where we left off with VT and your suggestion that they’d travel to Bridgeforth, can I have whatever you’re smoking?
ODU is playing AT VT and AT UVA. The only reason we don’t currently schedule those games is because they don’t want to lose to an FCS school. Am I supposed to be excited to host the ECU team we throttled in their house?

I often have trouble agreeing with Longhorn because of hyperbole, but he kind of nailed it in his last comment.