(06-24-2019 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 11:44 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 08:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 12:42 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(06-22-2019 01:13 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  For USF's sake, i hope you are correct about money.

But in terms of pride and prestige, it is a big blow to the AAC.

No, it isn't. UConn basketball has finished 8th and tied for 9th in the AAC the past 2 seasons, and not above 5th since they unexpectedly won the natty in 2014.

And their football program is arguably the worst in FBS, with not much sign of hope. It is a giant drag on AAC football, which brings in the lion's share of the new TV deal.

Not only that, UConn is far outside the AAC geographic footprint, and has culturally never been a good fit.

Pride and prestige need to leave home and get a paying job.

It is a major blow. Losing any conference member to another non-P would be bad enough, but UConn is the most nationally known and valuable AAC brand. As Adcorbett said, UConn was the big link that made the AAC distinguishable from just another CUSA configuration.

And since pride and prestige is basically what Aresco has tried to build the last 7 years, it is a big thing.

I have been giggling at your silly giddiness all day because " UCONN is the most nationally known brand " in the AAC and the "NBE took them". First off everything that the American has accomplished has been in spite of UCONN and their brand.

First, UConn clearly is the AAC's biggest brand. And it is the only state flagship and has the only P5 level athletic budget. Overall, it is clearly the top AAC institution, that is just a fact. It is considerably better than Memphis, or USF.

And UCOnn winning the men's hoops title is clearly the biggest national achievement by an AAC school. You need to check what you are smoking.

UConn has a good brand, but it's no better than Houston, Cincinnati, or Memphis.

UConn basketball is like Gonzaga or San Francisco: it's had one good coach. UConn has won 2 NCAA tournament games under coaches not named Jim Calhoun.


And State Flagship of a tiny state means nothing. The Mountain West has Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming. The Colonial has Delaware, Maine, UMass, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. How's that working for them?

(06-22-2019 01:01 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-22-2019 12:47 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  If this happens, beyond any specific impacts on media, it will be an enormous blow to AAC pride and prestige, and a big boost to the Big East.

1. It is why I said in the other thread that the AAC needs to wait 3 or 4 years when better additions may likely be available, or a partial merger of the AAC into a better brand conference is possible.

2. I think this move likely spells the demise of the UConn football program. They scaled it up in hopes of making a move up and if they return to a basketball only conference I think it goes away eventually.

What matters is what the AAC presidents think of themselves as a group and what they think of the candidates.

If they believe in P6 I can't see how they vote to add anyone that isn't Army, BYU, or a top MWC school.

I don't see anyone else fitting AAC's self-image at least not right now.

UConn is without any serious debate, the strongest basketball brand in AAC, but I suspect your strongest brand floundering enhances the idea that AAC isn't that good when results say its a pretty good hoops league.

(06-24-2019 10:27 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  UConn has a good brand, but it's no better than Houston, Cincinnati, or Memphis.

UConn basketball is like Gonzaga or San Francisco: it's had one good coach. UConn has won 2 NCAA tournament games under coaches not named Jim Calhoun.

Um.....Ollie won a National Title. With a Natty, a conference title, and three conference championship appearances there's a not-totally-crazy argument to be made that Kevin Ollie is the most successful AAC basketball coach to date.

I actually feel kind of dirty being on the side of Quo :)

(06-24-2019 10:36 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  UConn is without any serious debate, the strongest basketball brand in AAC, but I suspect your strongest brand floundering enhances the idea that AAC isn't that good when results say its a pretty good hoops league.

And also we could all sweep them and stomp them for years and the narrative from the UConn end of things would still be about the long lost glory days of the old Big East.

Fun having them in the league but they're clearly an odd duck that was never quite comfy. Please don't get your football program's brains on our rugs.

(06-24-2019 10:27 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  UConn has a good brand, but it's no better than Houston, Cincinnati, or Memphis.

UConn basketball is like Gonzaga or San Francisco: it's had one good coach. UConn has won 2 NCAA tournament games under coaches not named Jim Calhoun.


And State Flagship of a tiny state means nothing. The Mountain West has Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming. The Colonial has Delaware, Maine, UMass, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. How's that working for them?

Interesting thoughts. Few counterpoints:

Gonzaga and San Francisco have a combined two national championships in men's basketball, and both of those were won in the 50's (over sixty years ago). UConn has won four in the past twenty years. I don't think that is an accurate comparison at all. If anything a strong(er) comparison could be made between those two programs and the AAC schools you mentioned, since none of those programs have won a national championship in an equal amount of time (Cincinnati - 60's; Memphis/Houston - N/A). Memphis' run in 2008 was vacated, and Houston went eighteen years between tournament appearances. Different brand associations for sure.

Duke has won all of its national championships under Coach K; does that mean Duke is the same as UConn because its only won under one head coach (even though Ollie won a NC)? Indiana and UCLA have won nearly all of their national championships under one respective head coach; does not that mean they do not have strong national brands? UConn is only one of a handful of programs that have won multiple national championships under different head coaches. The Big East is now fortunate to have two of those programs (Villanova being the other).

A state flagship in the Big East will be an interesting component to the conference moving forward. Obviously, are membership has been Private/Catholic institutions in metropolitan areas. State flagship association aside, UConn is a research and land-grant institution, which absolutely strengthens the academic side of the league. It is #63 in USNWR, which is in the top-tier of the conference (Georgetown is #22, Villanova is #49, Marquette is #89). Those other schools you referenced (Nevada, New Mexico, Wyoming, Delaware, Maine, UMass, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island are all outside the top-100 in the USNWR academic rankings; so those are really fair or accurate comparisons either.

(06-23-2019 11:47 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 11:16 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 11:06 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  But that’s just going back to two teams playing seven conference games. Plus designating two OOC games as conference games, blows up the minute one of those teams wins the division; having beaten the designated “conference” game.

It doesn't "blow it up." You agree to that ahead of time, and what happens happens. Not ideal, but you said it couldn't be done. Of course it can.

It's just dumb, and is exactly why the AAC will likely try to find a 12th for football, even if there is not a team who will come that helps all that much. Assuming they want to keep the CCG.

I said it couldn’t be done... without two teams playing seven conference games (among three solutions). Your suggestion literally is two teams playing seven conference games. I don’t see how that refutes my point, when your solution is literally what I said.

It isn't my suggestion. I don't care if we stand pat or add somebody. I was agreeing with you, and just showing an example of the hoops we would have to jump through.

Where I disagree with you is in my last response where you said it would blow up as soon as a team playing an OOC as a conf game wins the division or conf title.

No, it would not blow up anything, b/c everybody would know that going in. They either decide to dance that jig up front, or not.

(06-24-2019 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 10:43 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo,

1. It has already been reported that the new AAC deal with ESPN won't change with UConn gone.

By 'won't change' do you mean the remaining schools will get the same per school payout as under the new deal, or more via getting to split UConn's money?

If the latter, please post a link.

It said the deal would not change, but did not elaborate. I take that to mean the billion stands. Either way, no school is going to get less money now that UConn left, as you seem to imply.

Go find your own link. I don't save them for your pleasure, or to prove anything.

(06-24-2019 11:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Where I disagree with you is in my last response where you said it would blow up as soon as a team playing an OOC as a conf game wins the division or conf title.

No, it would not blow up anything, b/c everybody would know that going in. They either decide to dance that jig up front, or not.

Are you suggesting that no one have ever contested a pre-arranged agreement when the results differed from those intended? LOL. Without going into the humorous (of which there are plenty), just simply look at how often the BCS rules were changed, after unintended results

(06-24-2019 11:25 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 11:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  Where I disagree with you is in my last response where you said it would blow up as soon as a team playing an OOC as a conf game wins the division or conf title.

No, it would not blow up anything, b/c everybody would know that going in. They either decide to dance that jig up front, or not.

Are you suggesting that no one have ever contested a pre-arranged agreement when the results differed from those intended? LOL. Without going into the humorous (of which there are plenty), just simply look at how often the BCS rules were changed, after unintended results

Do you really want to continue this silly debate? IMO, we shouldn't do it, but it could be done, and if they agreed to do it that way to start, it wouldn't blow up anything. And if they did change to something else, who gives a crap?

We just disagree. Bye...this is why I don't post here much.

Blather on...

You do realize YOU are the one who started the debate, saying that my assessment was it couldn't be done unless under three situations was wrong, and now you are complaining your response, which made no sense, should be taken as a real legit proposal, and are getting upset because of the (obvious) holes poked in your logic. this is on you, not me.

(06-24-2019 09:29 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  Legacy schools matter.

Winner.

It’s often more than performance from the programs with longtime members. It’s working relationships and power at the table. UConn has it. Even with bad football and down men’s basketball, we know these guys are legacy founding Big East members. They propped up this conference as something unique to what it now more closely resembles: CUSA.

You’re not going to replace that legacy if you’re the AAC unless one of the many schools who left it/OBE comes back.

(06-24-2019 10:27 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 11:44 PM)Tigersmoke4 Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 08:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 12:42 PM)TripleA Wrote:  No, it isn't. UConn basketball has finished 8th and tied for 9th in the AAC the past 2 seasons, and not above 5th since they unexpectedly won the natty in 2014.

And their football program is arguably the worst in FBS, with not much sign of hope. It is a giant drag on AAC football, which brings in the lion's share of the new TV deal.

Not only that, UConn is far outside the AAC geographic footprint, and has culturally never been a good fit.

Pride and prestige need to leave home and get a paying job.

It is a major blow. Losing any conference member to another non-P would be bad enough, but UConn is the most nationally known and valuable AAC brand. As Adcorbett said, UConn was the big link that made the AAC distinguishable from just another CUSA configuration.

And since pride and prestige is basically what Aresco has tried to build the last 7 years, it is a big thing.

I have been giggling at your silly giddiness all day because " UCONN is the most nationally known brand " in the AAC and the "NBE took them". First off everything that the American has accomplished has been in spite of UCONN and their brand.

First, UConn clearly is the AAC's biggest brand. And it is the only state flagship and has the only P5 level athletic budget. Overall, it is clearly the top AAC institution, that is just a fact. It is considerably better than Memphis, or USF.

And UCOnn winning the men's hoops title is clearly the biggest national achievement by an AAC school. You need to check what you are smoking.

UConn has a good brand, but it's no better than Houston, Cincinnati, or Memphis.

UConn basketball is like Gonzaga or San Francisco: it's had one good coach. UConn has won 2 NCAA tournament games under coaches not named Jim Calhoun.


And State Flagship of a tiny state means nothing. The Mountain West has Nevada, New Mexico, and Wyoming. The Colonial has Delaware, Maine, UMass, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. How's that working for them?

IIRC, Ollie led UConn to the 2014 title. In any event, UConn is a bigger brand than the schools you mention.

(06-24-2019 11:15 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 10:43 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo,

1. It has already been reported that the new AAC deal with ESPN won't change with UConn gone.

By 'won't change' do you mean the remaining schools will get the same per school payout as under the new deal, or more via getting to split UConn's money?

If the latter, please post a link.

It said the deal would not change, but did not elaborate. I take that to mean the billion stands. Either way, no school is going to get less money now that UConn left, as you seem to imply.

Go find your own link. I don't save them for your pleasure, or to prove anything.

I can imagine that ESPN would allow the per-school payout to remain the same among the left-behinds, but allow thrm to keep UConn's money and get more? That would need a link.

If you make a claim, which you did, then it's your job to provide the link. And you failed.

(06-24-2019 03:54 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 11:15 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 10:43 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo,

1. It has already been reported that the new AAC deal with ESPN won't change with UConn gone.

By 'won't change' do you mean the remaining schools will get the same per school payout as under the new deal, or more via getting to split UConn's money?

If the latter, please post a link.

It said the deal would not change, but did not elaborate. I take that to mean the billion stands. Either way, no school is going to get less money now that UConn left, as you seem to imply.

Go find your own link. I don't save them for your pleasure, or to prove anything.

I can imagine that ESPN would allow the per-school payout to remain the same among the left-behinds, but allow thrm to keep UConn's money and get more? That would need a link.

If you make a claim, which you did, then it's your job to provide the link. And you failed.

Not that I have a horse in this race, but there's this (with attribution to Navy's AD):

USFFan

IF the AAC can get a waiver to skip 1 (measly) division game solely on the basis of having 11 members (and they should attempt that first before going into deadlines and the like), then they can mathematically guarantee that the top 2 teams in the conference meet for the Conference Championship.

//////////

1. Every team has 6 permanent rivals and alternates the other 4 every other year for 8 conference games apiece.

2. The 2 conference opponents skipped in a given year follows the following pattern. Neighboring teams are skipped:
Odd numbered years: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K-A
Even numbered years: A-I-G-E-B-D-F-C-K-H-J-A
so team G, for example, skips F and H in odd numbered years and I and E in even numbered years.

If A and G are the top two teams, the "divisions" (for purposes of determining division champs and the round-robin conditions thereof) might look like this
Odd years (div 1) A,C,E,F,H,J
Odd years (div 2) B,D,G,I,K
Even years (div 1) A,I,E,D,C,H
Even years (div 2) G,B,F,K,J

In the odd year example, only division-mates E and F did not play each other, satisfying the conditions of the waiver.
In the even year example, only division-mates A and I did not play each other, satisfying the conditions of the waiver.

The actual make-up of the divisions is moot (any of several permutations would satisfy the constraints), as any 2 teams can ALWAYS be paired in the CCG. Conference standings would be listed in one table. The nitty-gritty would then be determining tie-breakers when not all teams have played one another.

(06-24-2019 04:59 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 03:54 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 11:15 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 10:43 PM)TripleA Wrote:  Quo,

1. It has already been reported that the new AAC deal with ESPN won't change with UConn gone.

By 'won't change' do you mean the remaining schools will get the same per school payout as under the new deal, or more via getting to split UConn's money?

If the latter, please post a link.

It said the deal would not change, but did not elaborate. I take that to mean the billion stands. Either way, no school is going to get less money now that UConn left, as you seem to imply.

Go find your own link. I don't save them for your pleasure, or to prove anything.

I can imagine that ESPN would allow the per-school payout to remain the same among the left-behinds, but allow thrm to keep UConn's money and get more? That would need a link.

If you make a claim, which you did, then it's your job to provide the link. And you failed.

Not that I have a horse in this race, but there's this (with attribution to Navy's AD):

USFFan

Thanks. The Navy AD believes if UConn is not replaced everyone else will get more. I hope that is true, as USF needs all the money we can get. But IMO, this has to be confirmed, as it seems more logical that ESPN would just remove UConn's share from the deal.

(06-23-2019 08:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Agreed, if it's a temporary situation with a definite end date, the AAC is likely to get a waiver. If it's not a temporary situation, then keeping the rule as-is while allowing the AAC to not abide by the rule would effectively be permission for every FBS conference to hold a CCG with division champs without playing divisional round robins and for the Big 12 to hold a CCG without playing a full round robin.

The Big 12 does not need to play a full round-robin. They can go the Sun Belt route and play 8 games. The waiver would not be for a "divisionless" championship game, but for 1 of the 25 divisional games to be skipped so as to allow all conference teams to play 8, un-repeated conference opponents.

The argument that the MAC situation was temporary does have merit.

//////////

Another solution (piggy-backing off the suggestions of other posters) may be to keep Navy in the West, drop them down to 6 games and then count the Army and Navy games as conference games.

Or rotate the teams who play 7 true-conference games and make a scheduling agreement with UConn, counting those as conference games. Both parties will need November opponents. Expand the agreement to even 4 games... No way UConn (needing to fill 8 new holes in their schedule) would turn the AAC down.

(06-24-2019 09:00 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(06-24-2019 06:30 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(06-23-2019 10:57 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Obviously it would rotate. And obviously it would be winning percentages. But as football seasons are often a game of attrition, two teams playing less conference games, can be a big advantage for them. Think how the playoffs emphasized teams who played in a CCG because it’s harder to win 13 games then 12. Now the teams would still have 12 games, but say Cincinnati played only seven conference games, and played a random sunbelt team, for example, in place of conference game 8, that’s probably less wear and tear, and gives them an advantage. Now obviously they could go the opposite way and schedule an extra P5 game, but the mere unevenness is not good for long term sustainability. Just doesn’t work as anything other than a 1-2 year stopgap

Not to mention the first year a team wins the conference only playing seven conference games, im not sure who’d cry foul first: other American members, or other G5 members if they got the NYD bowl slot, playing less conference games than any other conference member. And a rule would be adopted real quick banning it.

Playing one fewer conference game could just as easily mean you avoid a weak in-conference opponent as a strong one, so again, it's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. I suppose the conference could insist that the teams with 7 games have to schedule an OOC team that's at least as strong as a high-end G5 or low-end P5 team and count that as conference game #8. I'm not sure how you'd measure the strength though. Sagarin? Squishy rule, though -- hard to enforce.

Your hypothesis is certainly possible, but not really likely, considering the trouble many AAC teams have with signing games now with low end P5 schools, without it being on draconian terms (single buy game, or 2 for 1). Then it is even worse because you have to fit it in the window of when you are set to have only seven games, and it is happening once every three years. Forcing the Amercian to find two more OOC games just drives up the price.

I think many of you have forgotten what it was like in the BE, playing only seven games, and how hard it was to find that quality fifth out of conference game, to make up for every other power conference playing 8 conference games, much less having to have at least one during the conference season. And that was before several conferences went to nine conference games. More often than not, that "extra" game likely means scheduling UConn, Liberty, Army, UMass, or NMSU, the indy's who aren't tied up in a conference game. Combine that with everything else, and its no small feet.

Plus, regardless of who the fifth game is, the moment that team wins the conference, the other members will cry foul. And the moment that team wins the NYD bowl slot, the other G5 conferences will cry foul, and rule would be immediately changed.

It is NOT a long term solution.

I don't see this happening at all. Why would other conferences care? As I said, it's just as likely they missed a strong in-conference opponent as a weak one. And the SOS in the AAC is higher on average than in the other G5 conferences anyway, so the others have little ground to stand on.

If it's such a big deal, have the two teams play each other twice. NFL teams play their division mates twice a year, so what's the problem?