I think the concealed part is what is confusing some people.

In other states, the gun has to be visible but in Texas it is the opposite.

IF you don't have a CCL you have to have it concealed in your car.

Seemingly contradictory I guess.

Interesting. Here is VA if its loaded and under the seat you are breaking the law without a CCW Permit.

(11-30-2017 03:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:13 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:09 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:44 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Part of being a responsible gun owner is knowing the laws where you reside and travel. This is not the place to learn the rules. Take an active role.

I have read up on the laws and am 90% sure I am correct on this issue. However, no matter how many people I talk too, there is always someone who thinks the opposite.

I think I am being responsible by asking as many people as I can who is in the know on this subject.

I'm pretty sure I am in my right in Texas to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in my car without a CCL

That said, my weapon is not loaded.

Then why are you carrying it at all?

It's locked up in my car because my wife won't allow it in the house.

So it's locked and unloaded and totally useless as anything but a club.

Why do you have it in the first place?

(11-30-2017 02:49 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 01:42 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If you are trained, it's probably not a big issue. But if you are a weekend warrior or
a Starbucks ninja, you are just asking to have it taken away by people with bad intent.

Ask an off duty officer why they don't open carry.

That's why I no longer open carry. I am trained considerably in both personal protection and recognition and still worried about the dummy who reached for it because of that training. Made the decision to stop after conversing with my buddy's father who is a LEO and said the exact same...no sense in bringing attention when there are just as comfortable ways to conceal.

Yep. When open carrying in public it's not just that you're a target, it's that you'll be the first target.

The majority of people who open carry have never been trained on firearm retention. I hear people say all the time that they're aware of their surroundings but that's complete BS. It's impossible to have a 360 field of vision at all times. And it's fairly easy to take a firearm from a hip holster. The other thing to keep in mind is that people who open carry tend to have crappy holsters that are not even level II let alone level III retention holsters.

Another less discussed reason for not open carrying is that in the event of some type of criminal activity you leave yourself more options for response (or no response if deemed appropriate) if your firearm is concealed versus having it be open and obvious to whomever is involved. Remember, it is our duty as people legally carrying firearms in public to avoid confrontation and to only pull that weapon when it's deemed reasonably necessary to protect innocent life in situations that it's safe to do so (i.e.: not in a crowd when other people could come into the line of fire).

It's not apples to apples but since the 1960s when the FBI started compiling the statistics about 10% of all officers shot in the line of duty have been shot by guns taken from their own holsters by the perpetrator.

I respect that people are standing up for their rights by open carrying it's just a really bad idea on a lot of different levels.

Forget the fact that unless you live our west, when you're in the grocery store shopping with your Smith and Wesson 687 on your hip that the phone call from the panicked soccer mom inevitably goes into the 911 dispatcher saying "there's a man here running around the Krogers with a gun scaring everybody." According to every police officer I have ever discussed it with, that's almost verbatim what the calls sound like. If they called and said there's a man quietly shopping in the pasta aisle and he has a holstered weapon on his hip but is not bothering anyone, they would explain that no laws were being broken and wouldn't even respond to the call.

(11-30-2017 02:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 01:42 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If you are trained, it's probably not a big issue. But if you are a weekend warrior or
a Starbucks ninja, you are just asking to have it taken away by people with bad intent.

Ask an off duty officer why they don't open carry.

The whole purpose of a permit is that you're trained. I realize this can be skirted and maybe we change the training....

but 'having it taken away by people with bad intent' is sort of a problem in reverse, isn't it? People with bad intent don't think... I'll go to starbucks and steal a gun from an open carry person and then rob them all. They have a gun already.

As to the off duty cop, I suspect a lot of it is so that they don't draw attention and then they can get the drop on the perp... and not that they're worried they'll be jumped and have it stolen. If that were the case, then cops would be targets all the time of gun thieves/people with bad intent. We don't really see that.



But what does any of that have to do with the fact that people with permit's to carry, whether open OR concealed don't commit crimes and criminals would conceal carry?

If you're saying that we're safer if everyone concealed carries and thus they can all get the bad guys who conceal as well, okay... but THAT sounds like a recipe for the weekend warrior to me

Again, I'd like to see an honest analysis. I don't think you and i have different goals, just concerns about different aspects of it.

You seem concerned that criminals can now steal guns from you (pretty risky proposition to steal someone's gun in public) and I'm more concerned that we treat honest citizens like criminals and ignore the criminals.

Can't take by force what you don't know is there.

Cops have holstered weapons taken from them. More than you'd guess.

You're making a completely different argument.

You're talking about whether one should choose to open or concealed carry. I'm talking about what makes the person who is scared because they hate guns and see someone open carry safer.

You with your gun on your hip either makes a criminal go somewhere else, or go after you. It also should tell me that you're legally carrying. The 'no gun' person is actually safer and NOT in more danger when everyone knows you have a gun.

If you concealed carry, that puts you on the same level as the criminal to me. You're not a risk to me of course and you can argue that after he pulls his gun, you may be able to stop his second or fifth shot... but he's more likely to use one of those shots on me.

and this is what i found.... doesn't make it fact... as i said, I'd like an actual analysis of the issues....

http://abc7ny.com/news/investigators-exc...en/688854/

Through an open records request and an analysis of state police annual reports, Eyewitness News has learned that from 2006 to 2013, state police troopers have either lost or had their service weapons stolen 17 times.

A police spokesman says that with 2,500 troopers, the theft or loss of 17 guns in eight years shows "that our record for securing our weapons is very strong, and Captain Stephen Jones says the department has "very strict policies regarding the storage and securing of our weapons."

This actually implies that many of those 2 per year were the result of leaving guns unsecured in places and not having them taken off their hips.


I get why you'd want concealed... It makes you less of a target and thus more dangerous to criminals... but it also makes me more of a target. If that means that you don't want to carry, then okay.

I'm actually somewhat concerned (not nearly as much as I am about criminals, but i get the concern) about the average citizen (not off duty cop or specially trained person) who is not offering a visible deterrent, but is instead concealing their gun in case there is a criminal so they can get the drop on them.

Sort of like the 'alarm' sign and fake cameras... visual deterrents work

the 'me' above is a euphemism. I'm thinking as someone who is afraid of guns and doesn't want to carry or to let you carry at all

(11-30-2017 03:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 01:42 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If you are trained, it's probably not a big issue. But if you are a weekend warrior or
a Starbucks ninja, you are just asking to have it taken away by people with bad intent.

Ask an off duty officer why they don't open carry.

The whole purpose of a permit is that you're trained. I realize this can be skirted and maybe we change the training....

but 'having it taken away by people with bad intent' is sort of a problem in reverse, isn't it? People with bad intent don't think... I'll go to starbucks and steal a gun from an open carry person and then rob them all. They have a gun already.

As to the off duty cop, I suspect a lot of it is so that they don't draw attention and then they can get the drop on the perp... and not that they're worried they'll be jumped and have it stolen. If that were the case, then cops would be targets all the time of gun thieves/people with bad intent. We don't really see that.



But what does any of that have to do with the fact that people with permit's to carry, whether open OR concealed don't commit crimes and criminals would conceal carry?

If you're saying that we're safer if everyone concealed carries and thus they can all get the bad guys who conceal as well, okay... but THAT sounds like a recipe for the weekend warrior to me

Again, I'd like to see an honest analysis. I don't think you and i have different goals, just concerns about different aspects of it.

You seem concerned that criminals can now steal guns from you (pretty risky proposition to steal someone's gun in public) and I'm more concerned that we treat honest citizens like criminals and ignore the criminals.

Can't take by force what you don't know is there.

Cops have holstered weapons taken from them. More than you'd guess.

You're making a completely different argument.

You're talking about whether one should choose to open or concealed carry. I'm talking about what makes the person who is scared because they hate guns and see someone open carry safer.

You with your gun on your hip either makes a criminal go somewhere else, or go after you. It also should tell me that you're legally carrying. The 'no gun' person is actually safer and NOT in more danger when everyone knows you have a gun.

If you concealed carry, that puts you on the same level as the criminal to me. You're not a risk to me of course and you can argue that after he pulls his gun, you may be able to stop his second or fifth shot... but he's more likely to use one of those shots on me.

and this is what i found.... doesn't make it fact... as i said, I'd like an actual analysis of the issues....

http://abc7ny.com/news/investigators-exc...en/688854/

Through an open records request and an analysis of state police annual reports, Eyewitness News has learned that from 2006 to 2013, state police troopers have either lost or had their service weapons stolen 17 times.

A police spokesman says that with 2,500 troopers, the theft or loss of 17 guns in eight years shows "that our record for securing our weapons is very strong, and Captain Stephen Jones says the department has "very strict policies regarding the storage and securing of our weapons."

This actually implies that many of those 2 per year were the result of leaving guns unsecured in places and not having them taken off their hips.


I get why you'd want concealed... It makes you less of a target and thus more dangerous to criminals... but it also makes me more of a target. If that means that you don't want to carry, then okay.

I'm actually somewhat concerned (not nearly as much as I am about criminals, but i get the concern) about the average citizen (not off duty cop or specially trained person) who is not offering a visible deterrent, but is instead concealing their gun in case there is a criminal so they can get the drop on them.

Sort of like the 'alarm' sign and fake cameras... visual deterrents work

the 'me' above is a euphemism. I'm thinking as someone who is afraid of guns and doesn't want to carry or to let you carry at all

God bless you but there is so much diametrically opposed to universally accepted firearms instructor training in there that I'll just tip my proverbial hat and agree to disagree.

(11-30-2017 03:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:13 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:09 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:44 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Part of being a responsible gun owner is knowing the laws where you reside and travel. This is not the place to learn the rules. Take an active role.

I have read up on the laws and am 90% sure I am correct on this issue. However, no matter how many people I talk too, there is always someone who thinks the opposite.

I think I am being responsible by asking as many people as I can who is in the know on this subject.

I'm pretty sure I am in my right in Texas to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in my car without a CCL

That said, my weapon is not loaded.

Then why are you carrying it at all?

It's locked up in my car because my wife won't allow it in the house.

So it's locked and unloaded and totally useless as anything but a club.

Why do you have it in the first place?

I plan to go to the range and learn how to shoot it properly before I start carrying it around.

The last thing I want to do is accidently shoot someone or worse shoot myself.

(11-30-2017 03:53 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  God bless you but there is so much diametrically opposed to universally accepted firearms instructor training in there that I'll just tip my proverbial hat and agree to disagree.

Dude... First, I'm VERY pro 2nd amendment. Second, I'm literally asking to be better informed on the issue and you respond like this?

Give me a break.

I said nothing about how you are trained.... I'm speaking about human nature... and my comments actually agree with yours

I GET why YOU or an undercover cop want to concealed carry.
I'm saying why someone who doesn't want to carry at all should prefer that you OPEN carry...

Meaning the people in this video throwing a hissy fit all scared because of your gun is the EXACT OPPOSITE of reality. THEY are safer when you open carry. YOU are safer when you concealed carry.

None of that has anything to do with your training or anything else.

Then I presented the one and only article I found addressing cops having their guns stolen... something you said happens more often that I'd think... and the one and only article I found said 17 from 2500 over 8 years and most of it seemed to be poor storage, not being 'hijacked'.

If you'd like to give me more/better information... I'm all ears. I'm LITERALLY asking for it

(11-30-2017 03:38 PM)MonarchManiac Wrote:  Interesting. Here is VA if its loaded and under the seat you are breaking the law without a CCW Permit.

I know it's weird isn't it?

I think Texas law has it right because it's useless unless it is loaded but at the same time, they don't want you to have it where people can see it and get a hold of it.

I quit watching.

I thought the officer behaved just fine through what I saw.

And, I'm tired of people acting like they don't have to show ID. Yes; you do.

(11-30-2017 04:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:13 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:09 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I have read up on the laws and am 90% sure I am correct on this issue. However, no matter how many people I talk too, there is always someone who thinks the opposite.

I think I am being responsible by asking as many people as I can who is in the know on this subject.

I'm pretty sure I am in my right in Texas to carry a concealed, loaded handgun in my car without a CCL

That said, my weapon is not loaded.

Then why are you carrying it at all?

It's locked up in my car because my wife won't allow it in the house.

So it's locked and unloaded and totally useless as anything but a club.

Why do you have it in the first place?

I plan to go to the range and learn how to shoot it properly before I start carrying it around.

The last thing I want to do is accidently shoot someone or worse shoot myself.

Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

I'd go with that.

A secure box in your glove compartment or console or under your seat is far better and more useful for its intended purpose than an unloaded gun in your trunk or under your seat

(12-01-2017 03:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd go with that.

A secure box in your glove compartment or console or under your seat is far better and more useful for its intended purpose than an unloaded gun in your trunk or under your seat

or driver's side door pouch if you own a vehicle with one.....as a righty, I practice picking it up with the left and transferring to the right to maintain my chops......

(12-01-2017 03:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'd go with that.

A secure box in your glove compartment or console or under your seat is far better and more useful for its intended purpose than an unloaded gun in your trunk or under your seat

This is what I have

http://www.tuffyproducts.com/p-498-portable-safe.aspx

If I am carrying the only time I use it is when I have to go in somewhere that the gun is prohibited so I'm not worried about having to access the gun in an emergency. I got the portable one so I could transfer between my truck and my wife's SUV.

A few months ago when the leftists started getting violent my boss asked the three of us who go out in company vehicles if we carried while at work. Since we are in and out of government buildings none of us did because there was nowhere to secure our weapon. He asked me what I used to secure mine in my vehicle and I showed him. He went online right then and ordered one for all three company vehicles so now we carry while at work as well.

I drive a truck and have something similar in my center console. It's screwed in and has a similar cable that goes around the metal frame for the console. Has a fingerprint ID for speed and a code and key as backups. see Ram Texas Ranger Edition for the idea

I like Stink's idea as it is a challenge to flip my hand around sometimes, but it's not the worst thing. Unless it's in your dash, your hand is often going to be backwards so it makes prints or entering codes a challenge

Stink, have you tried just reaching across and grabbing it with your right hand? Is that an option or is it too low? It would be too low in my truck I think

Now perhaps if I could somehow secure it to the console under the dash without making it obtrusive and thus a target

(12-01-2017 01:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 04:00 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:16 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 03:13 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Then why are you carrying it at all?

It's locked up in my car because my wife won't allow it in the house.

So it's locked and unloaded and totally useless as anything but a club.

Why do you have it in the first place?

I plan to go to the range and learn how to shoot it properly before I start carrying it around.

The last thing I want to do is accidently shoot someone or worse shoot myself.

Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

The gun I purchased came with a gun locker and a trigger lock. It is under the seat of my car. The car is my weekend car and it stays locked in my garage.

So in order to get to the gun, you first have to break into my house, then break into my car, then break into the lock box, then break the trigger lock.

I think that plenty responsible.

(12-03-2017 06:37 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-01-2017 01:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

The gun I purchased came with a gun locker and a trigger lock. It is under the seat of my car. The car is my weekend car and it stays locked in my garage.

So in order to get to the gun, you first have to break into my house, then break into my car, then break into the lock box, then break the trigger lock.

I think that plenty responsible.

Read the bolded in his comment.

Obviously he agrees, despite the clear tone of your response which implies that he's arguing with you. This was the first you mentioned that i see of it being anything but simply lying under your seat.

What I find funny is that someone who generally leans left so he should at least somewhat understand the lefts position on this issue states a problem and then seems bothered by the fact that the right, not the left, seems concerned about proper handling of his weapon... something the left very often implies is completely void on the right of the issue.

The left on the issue (you are not left on the issue) is obviously wrong about how 'the right' (at least on this forum) thinks about guns and gun safety... and yet still, you seem to be accustomed to expect a fight, even when you agree.

It seems you agree that if you don't secure your gun in your car that you aren't being a responsible gun owner.

(12-05-2017 01:34 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-03-2017 06:37 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-01-2017 01:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

The gun I purchased came with a gun locker and a trigger lock. It is under the seat of my car. The car is my weekend car and it stays locked in my garage.

So in order to get to the gun, you first have to break into my house, then break into my car, then break into the lock box, then break the trigger lock.

I think that plenty responsible.

Read the bolded in his comment.

Obviously he agrees, despite the clear tone of your response which implies that he's arguing with you. This was the first you mentioned that i see of it being anything but simply lying under your seat.

What I find funny is that someone who generally leans left so he should at least somewhat understand the lefts position on this issue states a problem and then seems bothered by the fact that the right, not the left, seems concerned about proper handling of his weapon... something the left very often implies is completely void on the right of the issue.

The left on the issue (you are not left on the issue) is obviously wrong about how 'the right' (at least on this forum) thinks about guns and gun safety... and yet still, you seem to be accustomed to expect a fight, even when you agree.

It seems you agree that if you don't secure your gun in your car that you aren't being a responsible gun owner.

I have always been pro second amendment and I am a responsible gun owner.

Kind of ***** up all you leftist theory doesn't it?

(12-05-2017 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 01:34 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-03-2017 06:37 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-01-2017 01:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

The gun I purchased came with a gun locker and a trigger lock. It is under the seat of my car. The car is my weekend car and it stays locked in my garage.

So in order to get to the gun, you first have to break into my house, then break into my car, then break into the lock box, then break the trigger lock.

I think that plenty responsible.

Read the bolded in his comment.

Obviously he agrees, despite the clear tone of your response which implies that he's arguing with you. This was the first you mentioned that i see of it being anything but simply lying under your seat.

What I find funny is that someone who generally leans left so he should at least somewhat understand the lefts position on this issue states a problem and then seems bothered by the fact that the right, not the left, seems concerned about proper handling of his weapon... something the left very often implies is completely void on the right of the issue.

The left on the issue (you are not left on the issue) is obviously wrong about how 'the right' (at least on this forum) thinks about guns and gun safety... and yet still, you seem to be accustomed to expect a fight, even when you agree.

It seems you agree that if you don't secure your gun in your car that you aren't being a responsible gun owner.

I have always been pro second amendment and I am a responsible gun owner.

Kind of ***** up all you leftist theory doesn't it?

Jesus, do you even read what anyone writes before you respond?

Where did I say you were left on the issue? I didn't. In fact, I specifically said you weren't. See the bold

You're actually proving my theory about the left because now twice, you... like the left on this issue... ignore the reality of 'what the right actually says' and instead argues with their straw man of 'what they expect the right to think' which is often, especially here demonstrably NOT what we think.

(12-05-2017 02:16 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-05-2017 01:34 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-03-2017 06:37 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-01-2017 01:38 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Unless you have a secured gun locker in your car that is not a safe way to store a firearm and you are being an irresponsible gun owner.

The gun I purchased came with a gun locker and a trigger lock. It is under the seat of my car. The car is my weekend car and it stays locked in my garage.

So in order to get to the gun, you first have to break into my house, then break into my car, then break into the lock box, then break the trigger lock.

I think that plenty responsible.

Read the bolded in his comment.

Obviously he agrees, despite the clear tone of your response which implies that he's arguing with you. This was the first you mentioned that i see of it being anything but simply lying under your seat.

What I find funny is that someone who generally leans left so he should at least somewhat understand the lefts position on this issue states a problem and then seems bothered by the fact that the right, not the left, seems concerned about proper handling of his weapon... something the left very often implies is completely void on the right of the issue.

The left on the issue (you are not left on the issue) is obviously wrong about how 'the right' (at least on this forum) thinks about guns and gun safety... and yet still, you seem to be accustomed to expect a fight, even when you agree.

It seems you agree that if you don't secure your gun in your car that you aren't being a responsible gun owner.

I have always been pro second amendment and I am a responsible gun owner.

Kind of ***** up all you leftist theory doesn't it?

Jesus, do you even read what anyone writes before you respond?

Where did I say you were left on the issue? I didn't. In fact, I specifically said you weren't. See the bold

You're actually proving my theory about the left because now twice, you... like the left on this issue... ignore the reality of 'what the right actually says' and instead argues with their straw man of 'what the right thinks' which is demonstrably NOT what we think.

Perhaps you weren't around when I specifically told everyone what gun I was going to buy. Any gun expert would know that the gun I planned to purchase comes with the lock box and trigger lock that I mentioned.

I see what you are trying to do here but you are wrong. Everyone knows that Kaplony has it in for me and is simply looking for any way to attack me personally.

That should have been clear when he first attacked me for having the gun locked up and then attacked me for not having it locked up.