And Trump.

I think a little moderation would go a long way for the Republican party and this country. The Republicans have been going along with Democrats in dividing this country. I think the next leader of the party must break that. That means this Trump **** needs to be shut down after this loss.

The facts are many people are voting against HRC and the news media. People are tired of obvious bias in cable news and how it influences younger voters who don't know how to think for themselves anymore and believe in groupthink.

(10-28-2016 09:34 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  The facts are many people are voting against HRC and the news media. People are tired of obvious bias in cable news and how it influences younger voters who don't know how to think for themselves anymore and believe in groupthink.

Trump's supporters are also the victims of groupthink. He went through like Bernays and picked them up group by group and they fell square in line.

Don't act like your side (I'm assuming that it's your side) is superior.

This is one area where I do allow ideology to take completely over, and pretty much ignore any contrary data (though I doubt there is much valid data to support the contrary case): it is morally wrong to tax all income at one rate.


There is a floor of money you need to have a reasonably decent quality of living. And there is a ceiling of money that you could reasonably use even in a very extravagant lifestyle.

0% of income below such a floor should be taxed. 100% of income above such a ceiling should be taxed.



Doubtful anyone will ever make a good enough argument to change my mind on that. And I get the same vote as you. So ... there's that.

And generally speaking:

- the more complex a policy, the more efficient and smart it is.
- the more simple a policy, the less efficient and smart it is.


I'll almost always vote for the smarter policies.

(10-28-2016 09:54 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(10-28-2016 09:34 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  The facts are many people are voting against HRC and the news media. People are tired of obvious bias in cable news and how it influences younger voters who don't know how to think for themselves anymore and believe in groupthink.

Trump's supporters are also the victims of groupthink. He went through like Bernays and picked them up group by group and they fell square in line.

Don't act like your side (I'm assuming that it's your side) is superior.

I don't have a "side." I'm voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't think one side is "superior" than the other, but it's the facts.

Also, you don't understand what groupthink is and how it applies to young voters who get all of their news from CNN, MSNBC, and mainstream media outlets. Young voters are scared to support Trump due to his stances on immigration and fail to look at other policies that affect the race. If they speak out against their friend's confirmation bias they will be ridiculed and be called a racist no matter how they frame their argument.

Trump supporters actually go against the grain and form their own opinions without worrying about what the media says. That doesn't mean they don't live in an echo chamber, because everyone does to an extent...but groupthink refers to people who fail to think independently and form their own opinions, even if their friends or family disagree.

(10-28-2016 10:08 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  And generally speaking:

- the more complex a policy, the more efficient and smart it is.
- the more simple a policy, the less efficient and smart it is.


I'll almost always vote for the smarter policies.

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin...

Do people really think like this?????

It's simple math.

You're never going to get optimal efficiency with a plain, simple policy. That's how the universe works. Life is complex. Behaviors are complex.

(10-28-2016 07:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 11:55 PM)john01992 Wrote:  lol I guess facts are above you

Facts are things that come from the world around you. Things that come from inside your mind are opinions, not facts. You get to have your own opinions. You do not get to have your own facts.

You have not referenced a single fact in support of your opinion.

Gimmie a break. do a basic google search and you get both politicalfact and factcheck bashing it along with three different forbes articles.

when Oliver took down gary johnson he did so with a clip of GJ getting chided over the same issues that are routinely mentioned in those articles.

-the prebate would end up being the largest welfare program in history

-to be sustainable the rates would have to be much higher than the proposed plan. I've seen figures of 30%, 34%, and 38% mentioned.

-It would shift the tax burden heavily to the middle class and would pretty much destroy the middle class.

(10-28-2016 10:10 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(10-28-2016 09:54 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(10-28-2016 09:34 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  The facts are many people are voting against HRC and the news media. People are tired of obvious bias in cable news and how it influences younger voters who don't know how to think for themselves anymore and believe in groupthink.

Trump's supporters are also the victims of groupthink. He went through like Bernays and picked them up group by group and they fell square in line.

Don't act like your side (I'm assuming that it's your side) is superior.

I don't have a "side." I'm voting for the lesser of two evils. I don't think one side is "superior" than the other, but it's the facts.

Also, you don't understand what groupthink is and how it applies to young voters who get all of their news from CNN, MSNBC, and mainstream media outlets. Young voters are scared to support Trump due to his stances on immigration and fail to look at other policies that affect the race. If they speak out against their friend's confirmation bias they will be ridiculed and be called a racist no matter how they frame their argument.

Trump supporters actually go against the grain and form their own opinions without worrying about what the media says. That doesn't mean they don't live in an echo chamber, because everyone does to an extent...but groupthink refers to people who fail to think independently and form their own opinions, even if their friends or family disagree.

I do understand groupthink and Trump supporters fall in just like HRC supporters. You should read up on Edward Bernays and a good and tangentially read in "The Secret Lives of Sports Fans: The Science of Sports Obsession". These reads will give you ample demonstration of how Trump supporters (or any type of political supporter) are just as much of victims of groupthink and propaganda as HRC supporters and the reasons why. A Trump supporter comes up with their own opinions just like a marching ant.

(10-28-2016 10:25 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I do understand groupthink and Trump supporters fall in just like HRC supporters. You should read up on Edward Bernays and a good and tangentially read in "The Secret Lives of Sports Fans: The Science of Sports Obsession". These reads will give you ample demonstration of how Trump supporters (or any type of political supporter) are just as much of victims of groupthink and propaganda as HRC supporters and the reasons why. A Trump supporter comes up with their own opinions just like a marching ant.

http://www.johnkay.com/2016/02/03/the-da...versities/

It's funny how everyone is liberal when they are young then become way more conservative as they age. When life hits you in the face and you actually have to become an adult, pay taxes, save money, then try to retire, things change.

I also would like to add that not every Trump supporter is an "ant." There are ignorant people on each side of the political discourse but there are a lot of people who vote based on their job, the economy, and national security.

(10-28-2016 10:31 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(10-28-2016 10:25 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I do understand groupthink and Trump supporters fall in just like HRC supporters. You should read up on Edward Bernays and a good and tangentially read in "The Secret Lives of Sports Fans: The Science of Sports Obsession". These reads will give you ample demonstration of how Trump supporters (or any type of political supporter) are just as much of victims of groupthink and propaganda as HRC supporters and the reasons why. A Trump supporter comes up with their own opinions just like a marching ant.

http://www.johnkay.com/2016/02/03/the-da...versities/

It's funny how everyone is liberal when they are young then become way more conservative as they age. When life hits you in the face and you actually have to become an adult, pay taxes, save money, then try to retire, things change.

I also would like to add that not every Trump supporter is an "ant." There are ignorant people on each side of the political discourse but there are a lot of people who vote based on their job, the economy, and national security.

I was a Reagan Republican in high school and on through much of GB 1. As I have gotten older I have become a conservo-Libertarian.

Liberty matters....even for your neighbor.

(10-27-2016 09:14 PM)john01992 Wrote:  nowhere in the universe is obamacare similar to flat tax.

Your inability to comprehend shows through once again. I was saying it is their 'bullseye'...

They (like Republicans to Obamacare) would do ANYTHING to kill it.

(10-28-2016 10:21 AM)john01992 Wrote:  -the prebate would end up being the largest welfare program in history

Pure political semantics. Sure, you give people money, but that amount is based on their earnings, which you tax. The net impact on the government is essentially zero. If you call giving someone who earns $100 a extra dollar and then taxing them an extra dollar when they spend their $100 'welfare', then you obviously don't understand math or are more interested in politics than facts. What is the difference between a truly progressive tax rate (tax the rich to give to the poor) and 'welfare'?

Quote:-to be sustainable the rates would have to be much higher than the proposed plan. I've seen figures of 30%, 34%, and 38% mentioned.

Only because they ignorantly don't understand broadening of the tax base.. or more likely and as I've suggested, they're willing to lie to defeat it. For most Americans, they spend what they earn, so a 20% income tax is the same as a 20% consumption tax. The wealthy SPEND money to MAKE money, so they SPEND say $1mm to make $200,000. We tax them say 40% (actually 15%) on that 200,000... which is $80,000.... which is only 8% of the amount they spent. So an 8% consumption tax = a 40% income tax rate. Combine this with eliminating the advantage of offshoring money or deferring gains and the tax rates are lower, not higher.

Quote:-It would shift the tax burden heavily to the middle class and would pretty much destroy the middle class.

Another untruth.
The wealthy currently pay an aggregate tax rate of 15% on what they report, which is only a fraction of what they earn OR spend. The middle class (due to things like AMT and the fact that they don't have massive offshore accounts or deferred earnings) pays closer to 25%... so you're already burdening the middle class more than the wealthy.

By broadening the tax base, you can leave the wealthy's tax rate where it is and still collect more money from them. You aren't changing the rate for the middle class, but you ARE giving them an advantage.

If the prebate is set at say $50,000 in earnings and you make $50,000 or less... then you have a net tax rate of zero. Better than that, ANY money that you are able to save earns the tax rate... which is FAR better than any other investment available to anyone but the wealthy. i.e. if the rate is 20% (for simplicity, but it's also close to what most people suggest) and you earn 50,000 but spend 45,000.... your costs go up to by 20% to 54k, but you get a prefund of $10,000, so you 'take in' 60k, and put 6k into savings by reducing your spending by 5k. $1,000 in 'free money' to the poorest of us... but ONLY if they 'save'. As you earn more, that savings still exists (and of course, the more you earn, the more likely you are to be able to save) meaning that the middle class gets the same advantage, that lessens in impact as they approach 'wealthy'. At 100k, the prefund is still only $10k... which means if you spend every dime you earn, your 'net' tax rate is 10%. At 200k, your 'net' tax rate is 20% (the nominal rate) and it stays there as you continue on up. It is a progressive tax that is actually HIGHER on the wealthy than the current scheme, and you SUBSTANTIALLY ELIMINATE the need/benefit for the wealthy to shelter/hide/offshore income... which means they bring more of their money HERE.

So it not only is TRULY progressive, but it encourages SAVING by the lower middle class and up turning them into investors rather than just earners, which can help reduce the wealth gap, AND it increases the taxes paid by the wealthy AND it brings their investments back home where it can be used to create jobs HERE... which reduces the need for welfare/assistance and lessens the wealth gap.

The BEST evidence that it works is that far more countries (and I believe every state) uses some version of consumption taxes... Rather than a prebate, they simply raise the 'general welfare' level as an offset for the poor. If you'd rather do that, at least you'd be part of the conversation.

(10-28-2016 10:56 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  I was a Reagan Republican in high school and on through much of GB 1. As I have gotten older I have become a conservo-Libertarian.

Liberty matters....even for your neighbor.

I would say there are more socially moderate/liberal people than social conservatives nowadays. I identify as a moderate on social issues (state rights) and fiscal conservative. As people age the fiscal conservative part of people outweigh their socially liberal views.

LOL hammy. you are literally going against all the experts banking on this all being a vast conspiracy theory. the fact is that the overwhelming majority of people do not take it seriously and it is fundamentally flawed. that's why the GOP has never seriously considered implementing it. that's why all the major financial media sources routinely bash it. the only people lying are those supporting it.

I have not seen one legitimate article call it progressive. I've seen a number of articles call it regressive.

(10-28-2016 10:08 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  And generally speaking:

- the more complex a policy, the more efficient and smart it is.
- the more simple a policy, the less efficient and smart it is.


I'll almost always vote for the smarter policies.

Um, like Oblundercare? There goes your hypothesis.

ACA is doing what was passed.

More individuals are cheating out of it than was predicted. And more insurance companies are cheating out of it than was predicted.

It doesn't take a genius to find that the reason people are opting out is because they can't afford it. If Oblunder care premiums are more than the payment on your house something is wrong right there.

Isn't it time to go milk the cows, Bison?