(10-27-2016 06:40 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 05:50 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

Has ANY Democrat EVER embraced flat/fair taxes or a VAT or anything like that in this country?

No. In fact they have ALWAYS called it robbing the poor to give to the rich...

THUS, UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR CERTAIN YOU CAN PASS IT, supporting such a thing is political suicide. I don't care HOW much you or I might like it, 'the people' would not, because people's FEARS are greater than their smarts.

Flat Tax is to democrats what obamacare is to republicans.

AT LEAST Republicans are talking about it (positively). Be mad at them for not passing it, but be MORE mad at democrats for villianizing it.

No Democrat supports tax reform...because it would actually do more to help the less fortunate in our society than ALL their polices combined. It would create prosperity for these people. That is the LAST thing they want. They WANT and NEED for people to be less fortunate. Otherwise...They have no usefulness anymore.

You are assuming Democrats are malevolent. I just think they are fiscally ignorant.

(10-27-2016 07:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 06:40 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 05:50 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

Has ANY Democrat EVER embraced flat/fair taxes or a VAT or anything like that in this country?

No. In fact they have ALWAYS called it robbing the poor to give to the rich...

THUS, UNLESS YOU KNOW FOR CERTAIN YOU CAN PASS IT, supporting such a thing is political suicide. I don't care HOW much you or I might like it, 'the people' would not, because people's FEARS are greater than their smarts.

Flat Tax is to democrats what obamacare is to republicans.

AT LEAST Republicans are talking about it (positively). Be mad at them for not passing it, but be MORE mad at democrats for villianizing it.

No Democrat supports tax reform...because it would actually do more to help the less fortunate in our society than ALL their polices combined. It would create prosperity for these people. That is the LAST thing they want. They WANT and NEED for people to be less fortunate. Otherwise...They have no usefulness anymore.

You are assuming Democrats are malevolent. I just think they are fiscally ignorant.

The professional politicians are malevolent, make no mistake. It's all about controlling the population for their benefit to them. Their useful idiots are fiscally ignorant.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I think the Contract with America had something about the promise to implement term limits. They never even tried that one once elected. Wonder why, hmmmm

For me that's the only solution out of this mess and that goes for both sides.

Too much money to be made by those that could effect change so it will never happen.

(10-27-2016 08:57 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  I think the Contract with America had something about the promise to implement term limits. They never even tried that one once elected. Wonder why, hmmmm

For me that's the only solution out of this mess and that goes for both sides.

Too much money to be made by those that could effect change so it will never happen.

term limits on the legislative branch is something that sounds good on paper...but in practice is a terrible idea.

nowhere in the universe is obamacare similar to flat tax. obamacare is part of the health care debate where both sides understand a fix is needed and struggle to find a way to fix a complex problem.

flat/fair tax is an extreme radical proposal by partisans with no chance of ever being implemented on a national scale because people know it is a stupid, crazy, fundamentally flawed idea.

people don't support it for the same reasons hammy says they don't not because they are misguided, but because they see it for what it truly is.

(10-27-2016 02:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Philosophical question: if one has to be college educated to come up with new policies, then how can the creators of new policies create them so as to appeal to the non-college educated?

Seems like a bit of a paradox.

You'd need a college educated elite with a pedigree that has gone through the hell of being poor for a significant time, in their mid-life years (not while growing up), who has prior exposure to the good life and has suffered under the tyranny of government regulation, yet has a business background but has worked years in manual labor recently, shunned all government assistance (including WIC, SNAP, Obamacare, etc...) for themselves while living around the poverty level though they were eligible, had significant exposure to the legal system and an understanding of it (and general hatred for most of it), had been licensed in several financial fields and worked among the elites in high-finance, who loves the Constitution and has enough drive with basically nothing to lose to take a shot. I only know of one such person, and they ain't a celebrity.

(10-27-2016 09:14 PM)john01992 Wrote:  nowhere in the universe is obamacare similar to flat tax. obamacare is part of the health care debate where both sides understand a fix is needed and struggle to find a way to fix a complex problem.

flat/fair tax is an extreme radical proposal by partisans with no chance of ever being implemented on a national scale because people know it is a stupid, crazy, fundamentally flawed idea.

people don't support it for the same reasons hammy says they don't not because they are misguided, but because they see it for what it truly is.

100% wrong, John. The Fair tax is quite different from the flat tax.
The fair tax is revenue neutral--it's just a different set of rules for collecting the same amount of money.
The fair tax greatly helps the poor and lower income people because used items are tax-free (even cars, boats, homes). Most poor people cannot afford all new items, and would come out significantly ahead of where they are now.
The pre-bate is a far better deal than welfare or EIC.

(10-27-2016 09:31 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 09:14 PM)john01992 Wrote:  nowhere in the universe is obamacare similar to flat tax. obamacare is part of the health care debate where both sides understand a fix is needed and struggle to find a way to fix a complex problem.

flat/fair tax is an extreme radical proposal by partisans with no chance of ever being implemented on a national scale because people know it is a stupid, crazy, fundamentally flawed idea.

people don't support it for the same reasons hammy says they don't not because they are misguided, but because they see it for what it truly is.

100% wrong, John. The Fair tax is quite different from the flat tax.
The fair tax is revenue neutral--it's just a different set of rules for collecting the same amount of money.
The fair tax greatly helps the poor and lower income people because used items are tax-free (even cars, boats, homes). Most poor people cannot afford all new items, and would come out significantly ahead of where they are now.
The pre-bate is a far better deal than welfare or EIC.

the fair tax is bat **** crazy. what? you think it's just magical that it has such little support? gimmie a break.

(10-27-2016 07:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  I would still do NAFTA. But the fact is that it created winners and losers and we ignored the losers. We can't continue to do that.

The losers that NAFTA "created" were going to lose out regardless of NAFTA. The forces that caused them to lose existed with or without NAFTA. Blaming it in NAFTA or TPP or free trade generally is just the boogeyman they found to deflect attention away from the real causes.

(10-27-2016 10:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 07:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  I would still do NAFTA. But the fact is that it created winners and losers and we ignored the losers. We can't continue to do that.

The losers that NAFTA "created" were going to lose out regardless of NAFTA. The forces that caused them to lose existed with or without NAFTA. Blaming it in NAFTA or TPP or free trade generally is just the boogeyman they found to deflect attention away from the real causes.

so what's your overall position on it?

(10-27-2016 10:56 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 10:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 07:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  I would still do NAFTA. But the fact is that it created winners and losers and we ignored the losers. We can't continue to do that.

The losers that NAFTA "created" were going to lose out regardless of NAFTA. The forces that caused them to lose existed with or without NAFTA. Blaming it in NAFTA or TPP or free trade generally is just the boogeyman they found to deflect attention away from the real causes.

so what's your overall position on it?

That we need to fix the real drivers that are sending jobs offshore. Do that, and then free trade treaties will clearly help more than they harm.

(10-27-2016 09:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 09:31 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 09:14 PM)john01992 Wrote:  nowhere in the universe is obamacare similar to flat tax. obamacare is part of the health care debate where both sides understand a fix is needed and struggle to find a way to fix a complex problem.

flat/fair tax is an extreme radical proposal by partisans with no chance of ever being implemented on a national scale because people know it is a stupid, crazy, fundamentally flawed idea.

people don't support it for the same reasons hammy says they don't not because they are misguided, but because they see it for what it truly is.

100% wrong, John. The Fair tax is quite different from the flat tax.
The fair tax is revenue neutral--it's just a different set of rules for collecting the same amount of money.
The fair tax greatly helps the poor and lower income people because used items are tax-free (even cars, boats, homes). Most poor people cannot afford all new items, and would come out significantly ahead of where they are now.
The pre-bate is a far better deal than welfare or EIC.

the fair tax is bat **** crazy. what? you think it's just magical that it has such little support? gimmie a break.

Stay in character, John. Don't break your streak. Call him stupid or question his reading comprehension for cryin out loud.

I didn't call him stupid. I said the widely disproven idea of Fair Tax is crazy.

Thx for sharing owl

(10-27-2016 11:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I didn't call him stupid. I said the widely disproven idea of Fair Tax is crazy.

One thing for sure, your calling it "crazy" or "disproven" doesn't make it crazy or disproven.

lol I guess facts are above you

Fact is, it's not crazy or disproven. And that is in fact, the facts.

(10-27-2016 11:55 PM)john01992 Wrote:  lol I guess facts are above you

Facts are things that come from the world around you. Things that come from inside your mind are opinions, not facts. You get to have your own opinions. You do not get to have your own facts.

You have not referenced a single fact in support of your opinion.

(10-27-2016 04:51 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Mid 90s was the year they really could have tried harder.

Anyone remember the Contract with America.

They started great with the CwA.. but that majority only lasted, as said for what 2 years after the CwA was released?

(10-28-2016 07:57 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(10-27-2016 04:51 PM)DFWMINER Wrote:  Mid 90s was the year they really could have tried harder.
Anyone remember the Contract with America.

They started great with the CwA.. but that majority only lasted, as said for what 2 years after the CwA was released?

The majority lasted, but they lost their way. Sad thing is, there's a lot of stuff they could have passed with chameleon like Clinton in the white house. They could have gotten something like the Heritage plan through, and Bill would have signed it just so he could claim to have done something about health care, and we could all have been spared the monstrosity that is Obamacare.

The failure of republicans to get more done in the late 90s is what set the stage for the disasters that were the GWB and Obama administrations.