(05-06-2015 05:00 PM)Grungy Wrote:  Let's jump back to the summer of 2006, for a look at the installation of the scoreboard…
(And I'll change my call on the depth of the columns to 20', not 30', based upon an assumed distance of 4' between the vertical supports on the handrail.

https://grungeworthy.wordpress.com/2015/...mber-2006/

Excellent use of the Grungy not-terribly-wayback machine!

Pretty remarkable (and shoddy) that the dimensions of 9 year old piles surprised anyone during excavation.

(04-21-2015 10:45 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  The columns, which appear to extend all the way down to the depth of the field, will be razed at the current grade level and the EZF foundation built over them.

The columns were actually a suprise. It was known that the scoreboard had piers, but not that they were so massive or went so deep.

I should have included this in my post of the picture album of the construction of the scoreboard.
How could these have been a surprise?
Is there no institutional memory?
Did the Toad take the blueprints, and all knowledge thereof, with him?

…and this leads me to wonder where the scoreboard will be mounted in the future.
Will they reuse the one that was atop those piers, or is there going to be a more modern unit?

(05-06-2015 05:22 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:00 PM)Grungy Wrote:  Let's jump back to the summer of 2006, for a look at the installation of the scoreboard…
(And I'll change my call on the depth of the columns to 20', not 30', based upon an assumed distance of 4' between the vertical supports on the handrail.

https://grungeworthy.wordpress.com/2015/...mber-2006/

Excellent use of the Grungy not-terribly-wayback machine!

Pretty remarkable (and shoddy) that the dimensions of 9 year old piles surprised anyone during excavation.

Yep, I mentioned earlier in the thread that there should be as-built drawings around somewhere for something that recent.

Not sure where Rice would keep old drawings, assuming they haven't been scanned. Without any knowledge, I'd probably start by talking to folks at the FacilitiesvEngineering and Planning Building

(05-06-2015 05:41 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:22 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:00 PM)Grungy Wrote:  Let's jump back to the summer of 2006, for a look at the installation of the scoreboard…
(And I'll change my call on the depth of the columns to 20', not 30', based upon an assumed distance of 4' between the vertical supports on the handrail.

https://grungeworthy.wordpress.com/2015/...mber-2006/

Excellent use of the Grungy not-terribly-wayback machine!

Pretty remarkable (and shoddy) that the dimensions of 9 year old piles surprised anyone during excavation.

Yep, I mentioned earlier in the thread that there should be as-built drawings around somewhere for something that recent.

Not sure where Rice would keep old drawings, assuming they haven't been scanned. Without any knowledge, I'd probably start by talking to folks at the FacilitiesvEngineering and Planning Building

old drawings? scanned? It was 2006! I'd be shocked if they weren't digital to begin with.

(05-06-2015 06:19 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:41 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:22 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 05:00 PM)Grungy Wrote:  Let's jump back to the summer of 2006, for a look at the installation of the scoreboard…
(And I'll change my call on the depth of the columns to 20', not 30', based upon an assumed distance of 4' between the vertical supports on the handrail.

https://grungeworthy.wordpress.com/2015/...mber-2006/

Excellent use of the Grungy not-terribly-wayback machine!

Pretty remarkable (and shoddy) that the dimensions of 9 year old piles surprised anyone during excavation.

Yep, I mentioned earlier in the thread that there should be as-built drawings around somewhere for something that recent.

Not sure where Rice would keep old drawings, assuming they haven't been scanned. Without any knowledge, I'd probably start by talking to folks at the FacilitiesvEngineering and Planning Building

old drawings? scanned? It was 2006! I'd be shocked if they weren't digital to begin with.

No doubt

I'm a little old school though

I like to have a hard copy plan set to flip through.

From a storage perspective digital is great. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think digital plan sets are as conducive/encouraging for people to sit down and investigate/resolve problems as hard copy sets.

Kind of like I used to see every photo I or any one in my family took.

Now we take orders of magnitude more and I see less photos now than when I regularly used my 35mm Canon

Well, the columns were a suprise, however so.

Digital drawings? For a small project on a low budget? Installing a scoreboard isn't building a refinery or a skyscraper, and I'm not the least bit suprised that Physical Plant doesn't have the drawings, if any. Their archive is probably a rusty file cabinet in a basement.

(05-06-2015 05:34 PM)Grungy Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 10:45 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  The columns, which appear to extend all the way down to the depth of the field, will be razed at the current grade level and the EZF foundation built over them.
The columns were actually a suprise. It was known that the scoreboard had piers, but not that they were so massive or went so deep.

I should have included this in my post of the picture album of the construction of the scoreboard.
How could these have been a surprise?
Is there no institutional memory?
Did the Toad take the blueprints, and all knowledge thereof, with him?

Nothing would surprise me about that project.

(05-06-2015 08:52 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Well, the columns were a suprise, however so.

Digital drawings? For a small project on a low budget? Installing a scoreboard isn't building a refinery or a skyscraper, and I'm not the least bit suprised that Physical Plant doesn't have the drawings, if any. Their archive is probably a rusty file cabinet in a basement.

Hard to imagine they weren't CAD drawings or something digital.

It's ludicrous that there are no drawings around for what had to be an engineered system. Equally ludicrous is the complete absence of even the most basic safety equipment in use during heavy lift operations.

(05-07-2015 05:40 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-06-2015 08:52 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Well, the columns were a suprise, however so.

Digital drawings? For a small project on a low budget? Installing a scoreboard isn't building a refinery or a skyscraper, and I'm not the least bit suprised that Physical Plant doesn't have the drawings, if any. Their archive is probably a rusty file cabinet in a basement.

Hard to imagine they weren't CAD drawings or something digital.

Drawings are produced digitally. However, some public sector clients still require mylar hard copies for bid. They then scan the signed, sealed documents for digital records and distribution to bidders.

They'll do the same with as-builts at the end of a project. Facilities also often keep hard copy flat files available for 'flipping' through a set.

Flat files of hard copies are going away eventually, if not already. However, there is still benefit from having a full plan set (full or half-size) in one place to flip between different discipline drawings, and section cuts.

3D design is an improvement, but you have to have access to the files digitally and the equipment to check things out.

When you're out in the field, a full set of plans is hard to beat.

On a major engineering project there are thousands of intricately detailed drawings, both electronic and paper.

OTOH, when I'm putting in fenceposts at my house, I don't have drawings of any kind, nor did I inherit any from prior builders.

Given what you know about the circumstances of the scoreboard install, and of Rice in general, toward which end of the above spectrum do you really expect the level of planning and detail of the installation project to land?

(05-07-2015 08:32 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  On a major engineering project there are thousands of intricately detailed drawings, both electronic and paper.

OTOH, when I'm putting in fenceposts at my house, I don't have drawings of any kind, nor did I inherit any from prior builders.

Given what you know about the circumstances of the scoreboard install, and of Rice in general, toward which end of the above spectrum do you really expect the level of planning and detail of the installation project to
land?

Good point - this wasn't exactly a project that Rice Facilities needed to maintain/understand well.

While there were definitely plans made for the install, it's more than likely that Rice didn't care to see them or keep them in-house once the structure was built. I've encountered enough manufacturing plants or other industrial operations that have no idea what lies under their site, that it would actually be more shocking if Rice has kept them, then if they hadn't.

(05-07-2015 09:55 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-07-2015 08:32 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  On a major engineering project there are thousands of intricately detailed drawings, both electronic and paper.

OTOH, when I'm putting in fenceposts at my house, I don't have drawings of any kind, nor did I inherit any from prior builders.

Given what you know about the circumstances of the scoreboard install, and of Rice in general, toward which end of the above spectrum do you really expect the level of planning and detail of the installation project to
land?

Good point - this wasn't exactly a project that Rice Facilities needed to maintain/understand well.

While there were definitely plans made for the install, it's more than likely that Rice didn't care to see them or keep them in-house once the structure was built. I've encountered enough manufacturing plants or other industrial operations that have no idea what lies under their site, that it would actually be more shocking if Rice has kept them, then if they hadn't.

Don't follow that line of thinking at all. Who was going to maintain and operate the scoreboard? Someone should have sealed the structural drawings. Even if it's not a public project, the liability and the value of the asset requires that much due diligence on Rice's part. There would be hell to pay if the scoreboard fell on someone due to some structural or installation failure.

Not all industrial and manufacturing facilities are that cavalier about maintaining facility records. I'm don't manage facilities like that, but I wouldn't want Contractor's digging for buried utilities, etc without having a pretty good idea of what they were going to find. This is the 21st century not 1874.

Facilities & Engineering kept hard copies of plans (on paper, mylar, and linen) when I was on campus in the '90s. Copies were also on microfiche.

Rice ought to sell prints of the more interesting plans! Below is a photo of a portion of my copy of one of the Lovett Hall elevations.

Quote:This is the 21st century not 1874.

True. Backhoes and metal detectors make the job of finding uncharted pipes and cables much simpler and faster.

"Call before you dig"... and stop if you hear a clank.

(05-07-2015 10:46 AM)Caelligh Wrote:  Facilities & Engineering kept hard copies of plans (on paper, mylar, and linen) when I was on campus in the '90s. Copies were also on microfiche.

Rice ought to sell prints of the more interesting plans! Below is a photo of a portion of my copy of one of the Lovett Hall elevations.

LOL So my guess as to where I'd start looking was pretty good (at least 'back in the day' but not necessarily all the way 'back in my day'

(05-07-2015 10:16 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(05-07-2015 09:55 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-07-2015 08:32 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  On a major engineering project there are thousands of intricately detailed drawings, both electronic and paper.

OTOH, when I'm putting in fenceposts at my house, I don't have drawings of any kind, nor did I inherit any from prior builders.

Given what you know about the circumstances of the scoreboard install, and of Rice in general, toward which end of the above spectrum do you really expect the level of planning and detail of the installation project to
land?

Good point - this wasn't exactly a project that Rice Facilities needed to maintain/understand well.

While there were definitely plans made for the install, it's more than likely that Rice didn't care to see them or keep them in-house once the structure was built. I've encountered enough manufacturing plants or other industrial operations that have no idea what lies under their site, that it would actually be more shocking if Rice has kept them, then if they hadn't.

Don't follow that line of thinking at all. Who was going to maintain and operate the scoreboard? Someone should have sealed the structural drawings. Even if it's not a public project, the liability and the value of the asset requires that much due diligence on Rice's part. There would be hell to pay if the scoreboard fell on someone due to some structural or installation failure.

Not all industrial and manufacturing facilities are that cavalier about maintaining facility records. I'm don't manage facilities like that, but I wouldn't want Contractor's digging for buried utilities, etc without having a pretty good idea of what they were going to find. This is the 21st century not 1874.

Someone definitely has sealed copies, but it may not be Rice. Does the client always hold on to those items? I know the engineers who design them always do.

As I said, I've come across plenty of facilities who do not have adequate records of their facilities (utilities especially) at their disposal, so it wouldn't surprise me if Rice had neglected to maintain a working copy of the scoreboard structural drawings. You're right that not all facilities disregard records, but plenty aren't on top of their stuff.

Also, at some point there can just be a lose of institutional knowledge, even in the most well managed plants, which is one of the reasons you call 811 prior to significant digging or drilling. The call will help determine buried utilities in the area, and if there are concerns that a one call isn't sufficient, you get a licensed utility locator out on site to check for lines using GPR and other tech.

811 doesn't help inside a plant, where the lines are the plant's responsibility, not the utility company's.

At a refinery that had been established in 1912 and expanded an upgraded many times since then, the owner's had dutifully accumulated drawings from over the years. The underground lines I was concerned with dated from the 1950's through mid-70's. The drawings were small-scale plant plot plans with the underground piping shown as a dashed line along the general route. At least by knowing where it was coming from and going to and assuming it ran in a straight line, I knew its location to within a few feet, but not its depth. If an underground line actually needed to be found, the only way was to cautiously dig a slit trench perpendicular to its route, and clank marks the spot.

I didn't deal with any of these, but sometimes excavations would come across mystery lines. What to do if you discover a 6" steel pipe that isn't on any drawing and nobody at the plant has any idea what it's for? It's probably an abandoned line from long ago, but even so that doesn't mean it's empty...

Small lines are sometimes just field-routed, no precise drawings at all. Another story I have is of a plant that was aware of a 1 1/2" natural gas line somewhere in the grassy area where they needed to dig, but it too showed on drawings only as a dashed line sketches across a plot plan. They tried detectors, no dice - they don't work nearly as well as they do in TV crime dramas. They found it the old-fashioned way. (No harm done)

(05-07-2015 12:10 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  Small lines are sometimes just field-routed, no precise drawings at all. Another story I have is of a plant that was aware of a 1 1/2" natural gas line somewhere in the grassy area where they needed to dig, but it too showed on drawings only as a dashed line sketches across a plot plan. They tried detectors, no dice - they don't work nearly as well as they do in TV crime dramas. They found it the old-fashioned way. (No harm done)

At least they knew it was there somewhere. I had a client who operated several water utility systems in the area between Pearland and Alvin where there is a really old Amoco field that has subsequently been through several owners. If you're familiar with the area, you know exactly where I'm talking about. There are no records of what is where, and there are lots of lines running back and forth carrying all sorts of stuff. Every time they had to run a water line, it was an adventure of massive proportions.