(04-15-2014 01:18 AM)BoiseStateOfMind Wrote:  

(04-14-2014 07:15 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-14-2014 04:57 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(04-14-2014 03:40 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You cannot market an athletic venture that has no chance of success.

A lot of schools are already marketing only the illusion of a chance of success, or maybe a chance at a watered-down definition of success that fans are less and less willing to pay for every year.

Mississippi State has about the same chance of winning the SEC in football that Boise State has. How long can they continue to bamboozle ticket-buyers and donors into thinking that beating 4 G5/FCS teams (if they can manage that) plus going 2-6 in the SEC equals success? IMO, not much longer.

And once ticket-buyers and donors are no longer willing to pay as much for that faux version of "success", i.e., once fans realize that kind of 6-6 is really no different than 3-9 against an all-P5 schedule and spend their money accordingly, then how much does it help Miss St to play that many G5/FCS games?

Really smack from a Cal fan? Sorry, one win over a FCS team and a bunch of blowout losses qualifies you to cast shade on the G5 teams? I guess it couldn't get much worse.

Lets see how Cal would fare in a world with only FBS P5 games.

2013. 0 wins - all games save one were blowouts.
2012. 2 wins
2011. 5 wins
2010. 4 wins
2009. 7 wins Congrats.

Really? I'll bet a Sun Belt team getting 5 games against FBS teams at home would manage to win at least one of them. Even if they didn't, they wouldn't have been beaten by an average of 3 touchdowns at home. And you weren't any better on the road. My personal favorite was y'all getting curb stomped by a putrid Colorado team.

Cal is a cautionary tale for the P5. And an example why there probably won't be a split.

Congrats on your incumbency. That's all you have over the G5 as far as football goes.

LOL, seriously. It's hilarious how the worst programs in the P5 talk the most **** to the G5. They're grandfathered in and they know it.

And yet the E$PN pundits would still have you believe you should get more credit for beating a crummy P5 team than a G5 team that's actually better.

In all of this I keep asking myself "how bad to the P5 needs the G5?"

To do this, I used last seasons National Champion Florida State as my example. Their OOC included the following:

-Pitt
-Nevada
-Bethune-Cookman
-Idaho

That is a murders row of teams! Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

As hard as it is for me to admit.... I have to agree with 10thMountain.... G5 fans act like networks' ratings will drop and the fans of power conferences will loose interest in their schools if a split occurs. The P5 would still play us just like we play FCS.

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

Really?

If the P5 actually split then this would happen IMO:

Depending on the number of teams that would split, the bottom half of the P5 and the BB conferences would want revenue sharing. You are telling me that a team like Ohio State would want to carry a team like Seaton Hall? I think not, espacilly if the start playing players.

The bottom half of the P5 would go to court over this issue and I highly doubt that they would get an Anti-trust exemption if it came down to that. Even if they did, they would lose the O'Bannon case based on the above ruling like that.

Fans would not tolerate that nonsense and would start watching G5 games for these reasons alone.

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Quote:Fans would not tolerate that nonsense and would start watching G5 games for these reasons alone.

"Well I am just so put off by Ohio State that I believe I will become an Akron Zips fan from now on instead and watch them play Kent State instead Of the Buckeyes vs Spartans game this saturday!"



..Okay, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on your interpretation of reality.

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Not really. We will form our own playoffs and the NCAA can monitor the G5 and below. I wonder who will make more money, have better TV ratings and better attendance?

I think we all know the answer to that.

(04-15-2014 12:55 PM)jml2010 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Not really. We will form our own playoffs and the NCAA can monitor the G5 and below. I wonder who will make more money, have better TV ratings and better attendance?

I think we all know the answer to that.

A starwman does not work.

If if it did, it would only be for a while

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(04-15-2014 12:25 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

As hard as it is for me to admit.... I have to agree with 10thMountain.... G5 fans act like networks' ratings will drop and the fans of power conferences will loose interest in their schools if a split occurs. The P5 would still play us just like we play FCS.

Yup. People only care about the top level of football. Whether the G5 could compete or not would no longer be the question. They wouldn't be playing in the top level of football and by default---the best football team in the country could never come from that division. Thus, fan interest would plummet, ticket sales would decline, media money would dry up, and donations would rapidly fall off a cliff. That is not a route the G5 wants to take.

(04-15-2014 01:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 12:25 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

As hard as it is for me to admit.... I have to agree with 10thMountain.... G5 fans act like networks' ratings will drop and the fans of power conferences will loose interest in their schools if a split occurs. The P5 would still play us just like we play FCS.

Yup. People only care about the top level of football. Whether the G5 could compete or not would no longer be the question. They wouldn't be playing in the top level of football and by default---the best football team in the country could never come from that division. Thus, fan interest would plummet, ticket sales would decline, media money would dry up, and donations would rapidly fall off a cliff. That is not a route the G5 wants to take.

The G5 can compete. The question becomes could the P5 find a way not to implode in the manner I posted, assuming there is a split.

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I don't think there will be an mass defection from watching CFB is there is a split, the greater risk to CFB ratings is the NFL spreading to more dates.

I don't think a split would be the wonderous thing that some deluded P5 fans believe it would be. You lose the cover of the lower income programs in fighting the player payment movement. You like concentrate greater attention on the practice of high revenue programs to mostly tap into general operating funds of the university. Probably greater questions about how appropriate the tax deductions are and how appropriate it is for the government to assist in funding the operation of schools generating $80 million + in athletic revenue yet still unable to live within their means.

As to the G5. For most of the G5, take away the pittance of money and most can easily adjust their budgets to adapt. The better schools will draw good crowds and life carries. On remember the top of FCS is able to sell tickets and not dry up and blow away.

The schools that get hurt are the bottom 20 or so of the P5 because they lose the illusion of being competitive major programs.

(04-15-2014 01:26 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't think there will be an mass defection from watching CFB is there is a split, the greater risk to CFB ratings is the NFL spreading to more dates.

I don't think a split would be the wonderous thing that some deluded P5 fans believe it would be. You lose the cover of the lower income programs in fighting the player payment movement. You like concentrate greater attention on the practice of high revenue programs to mostly tap into general operating funds of the university. Probably greater questions about how appropriate the tax deductions are and how appropriate it is for the government to assist in funding the operation of schools generating $80 million + in athletic revenue yet still unable to live within their means.

As to the G5. For most of the G5, take away the pittance of money and most can easily adjust their budgets to adapt. The better schools will draw good crowds and life carries. On remember the top of FCS is able to sell tickets and not dry up and blow away.

The schools that get hurt are the bottom 20 or so of the P5 because they lose the illusion of being competitive major programs.

^this. That is why I said the bottom half and the P5 BB conferences would want revenue sharing especially if the start playing players.

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I like to think of FBS as an ecosystem. Each tier of school needs the one below it in order to feed. "Feed" would consist of home games + wins.

Quarternary consumers (top predators): Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, LSU

Tertiary consumers: Texas Tech, Colorado, BYU

Secondary consumers: UConn, Rice, Navy, Fresno St.

Primary consumers: E. Michigan, Akron, UL-M (two years ago they were a stage up from this - but I'm thinking historically right now)

Suppliers: FCS

Remove one or more "steps" and there is irreparable damage done to the order of operations.

A P5 split would kill the G5 first, and then slowly wear away at the P5 over a longer period of time.

(04-15-2014 01:21 PM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 01:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 12:25 PM)Underdog Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

As hard as it is for me to admit.... I have to agree with 10thMountain.... G5 fans act like networks' ratings will drop and the fans of power conferences will loose interest in their schools if a split occurs. The P5 would still play us just like we play FCS.

Yup. People only care about the top level of football. Whether the G5 could compete or not would no longer be the question. They wouldn't be playing in the top level of football and by default---the best football team in the country could never come from that division. Thus, fan interest would plummet, ticket sales would decline, media money would dry up, and donations would rapidly fall off a cliff. That is not a route the G5 wants to take.

The G5 can compete. The question becomes could the P5 find a way not to implode in the manner I posted, assuming there is a split.

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I think 2 FCS programs average over 20K. A handful more over 15K. The vast majority are under 10K. Don't fool yourself. How many will continue to follow a program that isn't part of the top level of the sport? I suspect some former FBS football programs would shut down under such a scenario. Most would struggle on as mere shadows of themselves in largely empty overbuilt stadiums. Few would ever be on TV.

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Dude, TAMU has the following record against fellow Sun Belt teams that you played while both were FBS.

Arkansas State 1-1
Louisiana Lafayette 3-1
Louisiana Monroe 1-0

Texas A&M home record vs Sun Belt FBS 5-1
Texas A&M road record vs Sun Belt FBS 0-1

Total record 5-2.

Sure, you're better, but not exactly a record of dominance. Congrats on your 4th place finish in the SEC West. Without playing 4 G5 FBS teams (2 losing record P5 teams and 1 FCS team), you would have struggled to compete for a bowl.

There are teams that always win almost always win against the P5. TAMU is not one of them. With that attitude, you might just get (Sun) Belted again next year when you host ULM.

(04-15-2014 12:01 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:58 AM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 11:52 AM)10thMountain Wrote:  

Quote:Sorry P5, you need the G5 more than we need you.

If this is true then teach us a lesson by going and forming your own separate subdivision. That'll show us.

Honestly I almost want them to just to prove my point. If they split first(P5), they MUST give up everything and forfeit the money that goes with it(No March Madness, Frozen Four, CWS, ECT). They must start fresh. See how long the P5 last!

Splitting will inconvenience the P5.

No longer being able to sell your fans and recruits as being in the same division as Michigan, UCLA, North Carolina, Southern Cal and Bama and eligible (in theory) for the same bowls and playoffs (in both money sports) as they are will cause interest in G5 athletics to dry up and blow away over night and you know it.

It will also cause a lack of interest in the P5 by fans of G5 schools, and that's a lot of people. I think the P5 believes once they have finished forcing everyone out that G5 fans will just start to follow them. I suppose some will, but not this one.

Yes, we have had some stinker teams in the past that lost a couple games to SBC teams. (Though name me the P5 team that has never lost to a G5 team it shouldn't have)

But how does that make the P5 more dependent on the G5 then the G5 is on the P5 as lance suggested?

There is a partial symbiosis in that the P5 want extra home games they cant get from exclusively playing each other...but the G5 need access to the money and exposure the P5 creates that they can not create themselves.

Losing that access hurts the G5 far more than losing the extra games hurts the P5, particularly since the P5 absolutely could continue to play the G5 and FCS after a split, but the G5 would be totally cut off from the P5 money and exposure after a split.

(04-15-2014 01:42 PM)oliveandblue Wrote:  I like to think of FBS as an ecosystem. Each tier of school needs the one below it in order to feed. "Feed" would consist of home games + wins.

Quarternary consumers (top predators): Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, LSU

Tertiary consumers: Texas Tech, Colorado, BYU

Secondary consumers: UConn, Rice, Navy, Fresno St.

Primary consumers: E. Michigan, Akron, UL-M (two years ago they were a stage up from this - but I'm thinking historically right now)

Suppliers: FCS

Remove one or more "steps" and there is irreparable damage done to the order of operations.

A P5 split would kill the G5 first, and then slowly wear away at the P5 over a longer period of time.

How? The P5 would still play G5 schools just like G5 schools play FCS. If G5 schools decided not to play FCS, would that cause harm to the G5? NO. The same principal applies to the P5 and the G5. They have most of the $$$, exposure, fans, bowls, upcoming playoff, etc.... Texas (for example) not playing Texas St does not harm Texas or the B12. There are enough sorry P5 schools that Texas could play instead of Texas St. However, Texas St needs the ability to play P5 schools in order to build its football program by being able to offer recruits that possibility....