(08-03-2024 11:33 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 08:07 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 10:56 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 05:42 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Nice hit and run.

I'd say explain yourself but I know you can't.

There are only two options:

Creation- Explains itself in detail whether you believe it or not.

Evolution - Big bang (that nobody can explain), life on earth is a complete accident, we evolved from monkeys... although there are still monkeys.

The bible has 2 different creation stories. Most people focus on just the first chapter. They don't look at the different creation story in chapter 2 that's obviously different from the first.

Your comments on evolution are...uninformed...so I'll not comment on that.

I thought humans had chromosomes apes don’t so no way can you get evolve when there is a missing link

Apes have chromosomes

Guess I should have clarified my statement. While both have chromosomes Humans have specific ones that allow speech and other mechanisms that Apes don’t have. And that is why apes aren’t advancing.

Apes may very well make some advances but they will never be humans. Sorry but that is just the way it is and you can contribute that fact to whoever you want. A super intelligent alien or God or anything else you would like to conjure up.

(08-03-2024 11:11 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-02-2024 11:55 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Where is this fantasy law written that Genesis is not historical text? (and yes I noticed you are trying to move the goalposts and bring up multiple others things we weren't event talking about)

The ancient rabbis treated Genesis as a historical text, all the OT books treated it as historical text, Jesus, Paul, Peter and all the Apostles treated it as historical text.

Why does it being a historical text threaten you so much?

Why are you so hell bent on disregarding that your Lord and Savior and all His Apostles viewed and taught it as such? Why are you so hell bent on disregarding with God's Word on this topic? You think God has the power to speak time, space, matter and the whole universe into existence but somehow lacks the power to keep a book straight? How silly of a view would that be?

Are you remotely aware of the depth of study and the depth of 2000+ year old manuscripts we have today and the miraculous accuracy that has been maintained? There is no other book in antiquity that even comes close, God CLEARLY preserves His Word as He promised us He would. Why are you so hell bent on attacking that based on nothing but your "feels"?

I've already stated a gazillion times here Genesis is not a salvation issue. But it is an issue that goes directly to the validity of God's Word, which actually can lead to a salvation issue when people begin to disregard whatever in the Bible doesn't suit them.

You seem to have this overwhelming need to go against the words of Jesus, the Apostles and the entire Bible on this so you can pretend its not a historical account and go with mans theories he can't even fully prove.

And NO, the early church of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries did not all accept the 7 additional books, that is just flatly untrue. Those 7 books played virtually no role at all in the early church, they were focused on the 4 Gospels, Acts and the Church epistles. Even if we ignore that and pretend they did they have no bearing on any Christian doctrine at all, its a comeptley meaningless straw man.

I'm not threatened. I don't think your literal interpretation will send you to hell.
But I think you sell the Bible short by being literal. I think its far more amazing than a literal interpretation makes it. It retains all its value as a guide despite imperfect human attempts to copy and translate it.

Your blatantly going out of your way to avoid the point about Genesis and you know it.

Of course there are parables in the Bible and its goes beyond just the massive amount of historical narrative it includes. That was never the point and no one ever argued otherwise. And you know that.

None of it has anything to do with the fact the Genesis is a historical narrative, the entire Bible goes out of the way to show its a historical narrative and Jesus and all that Apostles saw and taught it as historical. Your view is basically arguing that you understand things better today than everyone in the Bible including Jesus who is the creator Himself.

I believe God created everything. And the Bible explains it in a way the primitive Hebrews could understand. I think its a parable of how it happened. Similarly the primitive Hebrews had certain foods deemed unclean, but by Jesus's time, people understood some sanitation things better, so they were no longer unclean. God gives the people what they need, not necessarily what they want. You're knowledgeable about the Bible so you don't need me to quote for you why Jesus spoke in parables.

I am a Christian. It took me a long time to hone my faith. My grandma used to buy me a membership to a Christian magazine called guidepost. It gave me a foundation and I also attended mass sporadically. However I was fairly agnostic. In My early 20’s I went to 12 step groups for Adult Children of Alcoholics but I had trouble believing in a higher power. As I grew older I read a lot of Alan Watts books on Eastern religions such as “ The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are”. I also read books on human psychology such as Ernest Becker’s “Denial of Death”. Long story short, I had a hard time with faith. I had to live a lot of life, read a lot of books, and talk too a lot of folks. To paraphrase Tom Petty “It took a world of trouble, it took a world of tears. It took a long time to get back here.”

It all clicked for me when I got in my 50’s.

Jesus is my savior. My believe system is simple.


Jesus stated over and over “your faith has saved you”. I choose faith. I choose to believe in Jesus.


Jesus also said "In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you"


I love this passage because I have faith in Jesus and to me this is Jesus saying to trust in me. You may not understand the ways of god…. But God is wondrous and their is a place for you in his kingdom now and forever.

(08-03-2024 11:00 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 10:56 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 05:42 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Nice hit and run.

I'd say explain yourself but I know you can't.

There are only two options:

Creation- Explains itself in detail whether you believe it or not.

Evolution - Big bang (that nobody can explain), life on earth is a complete accident, we evolved from monkeys... although there are still monkeys.

The bible has 2 different creation stories. Most people focus on just the first chapter. They don't look at the different creation story in chapter 2 that's obviously different from the first.

Your comments on evolution are...uninformed...so I'll not comment on that.

I thought humans had chromosomes apes don’t so no way can you get evolve when there is a missing link

One species can not become another through any process. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT COMES CLOSE TO PROVING THAT.

Species can be similar and have similar traits but not change into another.

A TRex can never become a chicken.

And if apes evolved into humans, why are there still apes?

Exactly! My point was apes are missing human DNA and they will never manufacture it. Same conclusion as you stated impossible.

Fools Gold to think otherwise.

I sincerely thought this killed the missing link evolution theory. I guess I was wrong. People are going to believe whatever they want regardless.

You should sit this one out. You keep pointing out that you understand nothing about the theory of evolution. Ignorance is fine. We are all ignorant about some things. But arrogantly displaying it makes you look bad.

(08-04-2024 11:17 AM)No Bull Wrote:  I am a Christian. It took me a long time to hone my faith. My grandma used to buy me a membership to a Christian magazine called guidepost. It gave me a foundation and I also attended mass sporadically. However I was fairly agnostic. In My early 20’s I went to 12 step groups for Adult Children of Alcoholics but I had trouble believing in a higher power. As I grew older I read a lot of Alan Watts books on Eastern religions such as “ The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are”. I also read books on human psychology such as Ernest Becker’s “Denial of Death”. Long story short, I had a hard time with faith. I had to live a lot of life, read a lot of books, and talk too a lot of folks. To paraphrase Tom Petty “It took a world of trouble, it took a world of tears. It took a long time to get back here.”

It all clicked for me when I got in my 50’s.

Jesus is my savior. My believe system is simple.


Jesus stated over and over “your faith has saved you”. I choose faith. I choose to believe in Jesus.


Jesus also said "In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you"


I love this passage because I have faith in Jesus and to me this is Jesus saying to trust in me. You may not understand the ways of god…. But God is wondrous and their is a place for you in his kingdom now and forever.

Well said.

(08-04-2024 11:16 AM)bullet Wrote:  I believe God created everything. And the Bible explains it in a way the primitive Hebrews could understand. I think its a parable of how it happened. Similarly the primitive Hebrews had certain foods deemed unclean, but by Jesus's time, people understood some sanitation things better, so they were no longer unclean. God gives the people what they need, not necessarily what they want. You're knowledgeable about the Bible so you don't need me to quote for you why Jesus spoke in parables.

You believe God created everything, you just don't believe anything He told you about it.

I'm already aware you think its a parable, and I've already pointed out multiple times how the other 65 books of the Bible, Jesus and the Apostles go out of their way to make clear its NOT a parable and that its a historical account of creation. You even think God was so shortsighted He had no idea the Hebrews would be less than .01% of His audience who read Genesis and the Bible and believed in Him.

As I said, your position says you think you understand this better than even Jesus who Himself who was the Creator and made clear it was not. But you still decide to tell yourself its a parable, even though you are total opposition to everything the ancient rabbis wrote on it, everything the early chruch of the first 2 centuries thought and wrote on it (the people taught by the Apostles themselves) everything the rest of the Bible said, everything the Apostles said about it and everything our Lord and Savior (the Creator Himself) said about it.

You are so hell bent on this you are willing to throw ALL that stuff out and just go with your "feels" on it instead.

Its your call but that is the reality of what you are saying and doing.

(08-04-2024 11:19 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 11:00 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 10:56 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The bible has 2 different creation stories. Most people focus on just the first chapter. They don't look at the different creation story in chapter 2 that's obviously different from the first.

Your comments on evolution are...uninformed...so I'll not comment on that.

I thought humans had chromosomes apes don’t so no way can you get evolve when there is a missing link

One species can not become another through any process. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT COMES CLOSE TO PROVING THAT.

Species can be similar and have similar traits but not change into another.

A TRex can never become a chicken.

And if apes evolved into humans, why are there still apes?

Exactly! My point was apes are missing human DNA and they will never manufacture it. Same conclusion as you stated impossible.

Fools Gold to think otherwise.

I sincerely thought this killed the missing link evolution theory. I guess I was wrong. People are going to believe whatever they want regardless.

You should sit this one out. You keep pointing out that you understand nothing about the theory of evolution. Ignorance is fine. We are all ignorant about some things. But arrogantly displaying it makes you look bad.

Sorry my friend but it is you who knows only what you have been told about evolution from the materialist. That is ignorance. Educate yourself and you will be amazed at what you find. The complexity of the system is so great even from the most simple single cell organism that it is impossible it arose by accident. Prove me wrong with facts. Not insult or the insults of others you believe. I will tell you again that you simply can’t.

(08-04-2024 11:17 AM)No Bull Wrote:  I am a Christian. It took me a long time to hone my faith. My grandma used to buy me a membership to a Christian magazine called guidepost. It gave me a foundation and I also attended mass sporadically. However I was fairly agnostic. In My early 20’s I went to 12 step groups for Adult Children of Alcoholics but I had trouble believing in a higher power. As I grew older I read a lot of Alan Watts books on Eastern religions such as “ The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are”. I also read books on human psychology such as Ernest Becker’s “Denial of Death”. Long story short, I had a hard time with faith. I had to live a lot of life, read a lot of books, and talk too a lot of folks. To paraphrase Tom Petty “It took a world of trouble, it took a world of tears. It took a long time to get back here.”

It all clicked for me when I got in my 50’s.

Jesus is my savior. My believe system is simple.


Jesus stated over and over “your faith has saved you”. I choose faith. I choose to believe in Jesus.


Jesus also said "In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you"


I love this passage because I have faith in Jesus and to me this is Jesus saying to trust in me. You may not understand the ways of god…. But God is wondrous and their is a place for you in his kingdom now and forever.

It took me 40 years to get there. For 40 years of my life you would have heard me saying most of the things said in opposition to Genesis and the Bible in this thread.

But deep down I always knew I didn't read over 95% of the Bible had no idea what it said and had no idea that the facts were about the evidence. But I never would have admitted that back then and would have argue things into the ground even knowing I was totally full of it on this and had no clue what I was really talking about.

It just pains my heart to think of the things I used to say and argue on this, and seeing others do that same thing I did for all those years knowing their heart and mind is totally closed off on this just as mine was.

I would have NEVER believed back then where I am now on this. Clearly God had other plans for me and I never knew it.

(08-04-2024 09:35 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 11:53 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 11:10 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-02-2024 10:44 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-02-2024 11:04 AM)miko33 Wrote:  You're not reading these texts in their original languages. We don't see the changes within the blocks of text that would show different authors. There can be hundreds of years separating the authorship of different parts of the book.

That is exactly what I have spent years now doing Miko, Studying the the Bible in 3 different languages. Both the OT and NT in their original languages and in English.

You on the other hand have never ever read most of it in your own language, much less done years worth of study in original Hebrew or Greek as well. You can't even remotely make an argument yourself you have to link other peoples arguments and speak as vaguely and little as possible because you really know little to nothing about the actual text at all.

(08-02-2024 11:04 AM)miko33 Wrote:  Not to be mean, but you ARE reading this as if you are a child. Because of the tradition you chose as your lens thru which you interpret the bible, you have to rationalize away obvious inconsistencies. In the 2nd story of creation - for example - you have to say "God brought animals to man to name and find a suitable partner" while in reality it's showing God is creating those animals exactly how he created Adam by bringing them out from the dirt and then Adam is giving them names plus looking for a suitable partner.

A "child" who has studied the text in 3 different languages for many years Miko. Meanwhile you are trying to debate a book you have not even read 90% of in just one language.

Even if you go into this theoretical P or J (Yahwehist) stuff its still just that. A hypothetical THEORY about the original document that is highly questionable, rejected by many scholars and historically about 5 minutes old. What we do KNOW is ancient rabbis universally taught this as ONE creation account, not two. Jesus, the Apostles and the church fathers of the first 2 centuries had the EXACT same Genesis we have today and universally taught it as 100% literal, and NOT 2 different creation accounts. The idea of 2 accounts never even came up until about 150 years ago.

As soon as a someone starts trying to argue man was created twice from Genesis 1 to Genesis 2 you know you are in total quackville on this. No honest unbaised person can read the text in either language and say there were different 2 creations of man.

I read Genesis the same way the other 65 books of the Bible read Genesis. I read Genesis and creation the same way Jesus Christ, Peter, Paul, John, James David, Solomon read it. As a LITERAL first hand account of creation. There are 65 books of the Bible that follow Genesis and reference and bring up the creation details over and over and over again and not one single time in the entire Bible is it ever presented as a parable or non literal. Every single time its is referenced as being ONE CREATION and 100% literal.

If you were actually reading the text you would know both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 say God brought forth every living creature out of the earth (dry land) and out of the ground every beast was formed. And its says this in both languages.

I'm going to be kind here because we both know you are out of your depth on this and forced to take a blind leap of faith over what someone else says that you point to. YOU can't explain or state your position at all, you don't even know what to argue. You just know you have blind faith in this for obvious reasons.

There are a couple of legit places where you can point to possible contradiction in the text of the Bible, THIS AIN'T ONE OF THEM. Its not even close.

You're fluent in 3 languages - 2 of them being over 2,000 year old dialects? You read copies of manuscripts of the bible completely in their original languages - front to back - and completely understood the language with zero issues? Is that what you're telling us? We're not talking just any old Greek - but Koine Greek. If you wanted to, you could have an intelligent conversation with someone in Koine Greek. Not just ordering water at a restaurant level of mastery - but mastery on a level to have deep discussions with others in philosophy, theology and other such topics?

So, Miko, tell us how you think or believe we got here. To this place and time where we are intellectually trying to solve the mystery of our origin?

While you are to attempt it realize this

Are we the only technological species that has ever arisen?'- Woodruff Sullivan, University of Washington
The result? By applying the new exoplanet data to the universe’s 2 x 10 to the 22nd power stars, Frank and Sullivan find that human civilization is likely to be unique in the cosmos only if the odds of a civilization developing on a habitable planet are less than about one in 10 billion trillion, or one part in 10 to the 22nd power.

This makes me realize we are not here by mistake nor by some fish washing up on shore to become an ape to a man. We are all for a reason I just don’t know what it is.

Christians go on faith? And there has been some archaeological finds that confirm that a lot of things and events in the Bible were factual. So, while not confirming origin not complete fiction.

Science uses carbon dating and some other methods which aren’t 100% accurate either.

We can conclude early man not necessarily cave men did roam the earth.

How long ago? Still, not conclusive.

How old was the Mammoth flash frozen and kept frozen with green vegetation in its mouth and digestive tract. You can’t have a gradual ice age with green vegetation.

Mysteries? Perhaps or just maybe things didn’t occur over the vast periods of time as we are being told.

I mean just look at what’s gone on the last fifty years.

Does it matter if man was created with a purpose or if we developed with no purpose to our existence ever intended?

Now, you’re missing the point.

It didn’t just occur by happen chance.

Astronomical odds are against you if you try to argue otherwise.

(08-03-2024 10:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:24 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(08-01-2024 10:56 PM)miko33 Wrote:  The bible has 2 different creation stories. Most people focus on just the first chapter. They don't look at the different creation story in chapter 2 that's obviously different from the first.

Your comments on evolution are...uninformed...so I'll not comment on that.

I thought humans had chromosomes apes don’t so no way can you get evolve when there is a missing link

One species can not become another through any process. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT COMES CLOSE TO PROVING THAT.

Species can be similar and have similar traits but not change into another.

A TRex can never become a chicken.

And if apes evolved into humans, why are there still apes?

Show me the quote from any scientific publication thats says a

Show me one ounce of evidence. THERE IS NONE. Only this animal has five fingers and five toes, two eyes and hips that are similar so one must have evolved from the other. Doesn’t mean one was once the other. So show me just one scientific paper that shows irrefutable proof of one species becoming another. I promise that you can’t. But keep on believing that a man can have a baby if you want because they are both just as impossible.
Life didn’t just appear. Just as an F22 didn’t appear after a tornado blew through a trailer park. (Actually an F22 is nowhere in the same galaxy in complexity compared to a living single cell organism.) If it did the living cell didn’t just decide to multiply by ripping itself in two equal pieces. Nor did two of those pieces decide to gang up together and then gang up some more. Neither did they just learn to communicate to form organs and tissues. So from there to form a conscious aware entity.

No science can nor probably will ever explain how life began. Nor will it ever explain the incredible diversity of life on this planet.

therefore, why let someone challenge your "faith" ... b/c that's all this really is about, Ja?!

@food4thought #thatA-guy ... (you know I'm just funnin') ... however, it's impo®tant in scope before powder becomes something else, Ja?

(08-07-2024 03:39 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 10:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:24 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 06:26 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  I thought humans had chromosomes apes don’t so no way can you get evolve when there is a missing link

One species can not become another through any process. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT COMES CLOSE TO PROVING THAT.

Species can be similar and have similar traits but not change into another.

A TRex can never become a chicken.

And if apes evolved into humans, why are there still apes?

Show me the quote from any scientific publication thats says a

Show me one ounce of evidence. THERE IS NONE. Only this animal has five fingers and five toes, two eyes and hips that are similar so one must have evolved from the other. Doesn’t mean one was once the other. So show me just one scientific paper that shows irrefutable proof of one species becoming another. I promise that you can’t. But keep on believing that a man can have a baby if you want because they are both just as impossible.
Life didn’t just appear. Just as an F22 didn’t appear after a tornado blew through a trailer park. (Actually an F22 is nowhere in the same galaxy in complexity compared to a living single cell organism.) If it did the living cell didn’t just decide to multiply by ripping itself in two equal pieces. Nor did two of those pieces decide to gang up together and then gang up some more. Neither did they just learn to communicate to form organs and tissues. So from there to form a conscious aware entity.

No science can nor probably will ever explain how life began. Nor will it ever explain the incredible diversity of life on this planet.

therefore, why let someone challenge your "faith" ... b/c that's all this really is about, Ja?!

@food4thought #thatA-guy ... (you know I'm just funnin') ... however, it's impo®tant in scope before powder becomes something else, Ja?

As I stated above it has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with math, probability and information. Information does not just appear out of the ether. Science itself tells us this. Ink and paper does not write a book. ABCs scattered on paper will never produce a book. Information must be brought into existence by a mind. The information in a simple single cell organism is incredibly vast. It is also interpreted by the cell indicating that the cell is in some way computing. I’m telling you now with no religion involved, life did not just “happen”. Something created the information in all living organisms. As I said, attribute that to whatever or whoever you desire.

(08-07-2024 04:21 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-07-2024 03:39 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 10:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:24 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(08-03-2024 09:03 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  One species can not become another through any process. There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE THAT COMES CLOSE TO PROVING THAT.

Species can be similar and have similar traits but not change into another.

A TRex can never become a chicken.

And if apes evolved into humans, why are there still apes?

Show me the quote from any scientific publication thats says a

Show me one ounce of evidence. THERE IS NONE. Only this animal has five fingers and five toes, two eyes and hips that are similar so one must have evolved from the other. Doesn’t mean one was once the other. So show me just one scientific paper that shows irrefutable proof of one species becoming another. I promise that you can’t. But keep on believing that a man can have a baby if you want because they are both just as impossible.
Life didn’t just appear. Just as an F22 didn’t appear after a tornado blew through a trailer park. (Actually an F22 is nowhere in the same galaxy in complexity compared to a living single cell organism.) If it did the living cell didn’t just decide to multiply by ripping itself in two equal pieces. Nor did two of those pieces decide to gang up together and then gang up some more. Neither did they just learn to communicate to form organs and tissues. So from there to form a conscious aware entity.

No science can nor probably will ever explain how life began. Nor will it ever explain the incredible diversity of life on this planet.

therefore, why let someone challenge your "faith" ... b/c that's all this really is about, Ja?!

@food4thought #thatA-guy ... (you know I'm just funnin') ... however, it's impo®tant in scope before powder becomes something else, Ja?

As I stated above it has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with math, probability and information. Information does not just appear out of the ether. Science itself tells us this. Ink and paper does not write a book. ABCs scattered on paper will never produce a book. Information must be brought into existence by a mind. The information in a simple single cell organism is incredibly vast. It is also interpreted by the cell indicating that the cell is in some way computing. I’m telling you now with no religion involved, life did not just “happen”. Something created the information in all living organisms. As I said, attribute that to whatever or whoever you desire.

fair enough ... "something" = 1