Hello There, Guest! Registered users see far less ads! Register today and join our virtual tailgate. (Login — Register)

Thread Closed 
New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
Author Message
450bench Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 34,232
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 3086
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Memphis
Post: #221
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  It’s absolutely a banana republic.
The left has created it, perpetuated it, nurtured it and, as we see here daily from the resident libs, denied it.

All you have to do to see proof is watch ABC, nbc, cbs news for a few minutes at the top of an hour sometime. See what their agenda try to brainwash you with.
See what they prop up and see what they criticize or scoff at.

It’s hilarious.

Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.
08-04-2023 12:16 PM
Find all posts by this user
MileHighBronco Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 34,608
Joined: Mar 2005
Reputation: 1770
I Root For: Broncos
Location: Forgotten Time Zone
Post: #222
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
Gee, who would I tend to believe more?

A former Federal Prosecutor or our local lawyer expert who seems awfully invested in seeing Trump brought down?

Jack Smith has a reputation for a reason. He's a weasel.
08-04-2023 12:17 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #223
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:17 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Gee, who would I tend to believe more?

A former Federal Prosecutor or our local lawyer expert who seems awfully invested in seeing Trump brought down?

Maybe try addressing the issues raised. Or run away from them. You be you. Quite the brave person there to run away from the issues in my post. Pretty much all either direct quotes from your person, followed by the facts in the indictment.

Or just run away.

Quote:Jack Smith has a reputation for a reason. He's a weasel.

From what? Please be specific.
08-04-2023 12:24 PM
Find all posts by this user
boss man Offline
The Collapse is Imminent
*

Posts: 16,326
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 1028
I Root For: MEMPHIS TIGERS
Location: Arlington, TN
Post: #224
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 11:44 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  This is the view of a former Federal Prosecutor, Will Scharf.

Quote:Special Counsel Jack Smith’s latest indictment against President Trump seeks to criminalize political speech and taking incorrect legal advice. Americans of all political stripes should be furious and deeply concerned by the course Smith has set this country on.

I have reviewed the new Trump indictment closely, and sadly, it is exactly what we have come to expect from Smith’s team — a highly political document, riddled with legal and factual infirmities. This indictment should have never been brought to a grand jury in the first place. Moreover, its timing, particularly in light of Smith’s statements and actions in the Trump documents case, is so highly suspect that it casts a political pall over the whole case.

The Indictment

Smith’s indictment contains four counts against Trump.

The first, brought under 18 U.S.C. § 371, alleges that Trump conspired to defraud the United States “by using knowingly false claims of election fraud to obstruct federal government function by which those results are collected, counted and certified.”

The second and third allege conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding and the actual or attempted obstruction of an official proceeding, both in violation of subsections of 18 U.S.C. § 1512.

The fourth alleges that Trump committed a “conspiracy against rights,” by knowingly conspiring to deprive Americans of their right to vote and have their votes counted, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241.

Having read the indictment, having followed Jan. 6-related cases closely, having read extensive news coverage, and having spoken to others with experience in this area of the law, I do not believe any of these charges can fairly be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a fair judge and jury. Additionally, I expect that were this case to reach the Supreme Court, the court would reject Smith’s theories of liability on all or at least some of these counts, as it did unanimously with his prosecution of former Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell.

Smith and his team did a real disservice to the cause of justice by bringing this indictment.

Quote:1. Trump’s State of Mind

In the Trump documents case, we’ve already seen how thorny issues of intent can be. There, many of us have argued that, in light of the president’s rights and responsibilities under the Presidential Records Act, it is essentially impossible for Jack Smith to prove that Trump knowingly violated the Espionage Act subsection charged.

Here, we have a similar issue. For all four of these charges, Smith needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew his claims about election integrity were false, and that he knew the legal theories his team advanced were not viable.

Not just that these claims were false, not just that Trump might have known that they were false, or that Trump should have known that they were false. If Trump did not actually know his claims were false and the theories he was advancing were wrong, then I do not see how he can be found guilty of any of the four charges in the indictment.

While Smith points to a few statements Trump allegedly made to others at various stages of his election challenges where he impliedly (if you squint hard enough) appears to concede defeat, the overwhelming gravamen of Trump’s statements and actions indicate he believed that his claims — both factual about the conduct of the election and legal about potential remedies — were true. Considering the record as a whole, how does one go about proving Trump didn’t believe his own arguments?

Moreover, three of these counts charge conspiracy. For those counts, Smith likely has to prove that Trump’s alleged co-conspirators also knew the claims they were advancing were false. And that Trump and his alleged co-conspirators all agreed, knowing that the claims were false, to press ahead anyway. Given the list of co-conspirators, their activities during the time period in question, and the interactions between them and Trump that have already been made public, I think the opposite is likely the case.

In short, proving the requisite intent on the part of Trump and his alleged co-conspirators on all of these charges is likely impossible, at least in front of a fair jury in a fair courtroom. This indictment should never have been brought.

Quote:2. Criminalizing Political Speech

Others have made this point publicly already, so I won’t belabor it. To put it simply, Jack Smith’s theory of the case necessarily requires criminalizing political speech. This is core, protected activity under the First Amendment, and the legal implications are truly scary for our democracy.

Is any public challenge to a certified federal election a criminal act? In Jack Smith’s telling, the answer is probably yes. At what point do election challenges become criminal? Based on Jack Smith’s theory of the case, the answer to that is entirely unclear, meaning that the very fact that this indictment was brought may have a deeply chilling effect on protected speech in years to come.

Hillary Clinton, Stacey Abrams, and many, many others have claimed for years that their elections were stolen from them. Abrams continued her efforts to challenge her defeat to Brian Kemp long after the results were clear. Andrew Jackson claimed John Quincy Adams cheated him out of the election of 1824. After the 2000, 2004, and 2016 elections, Democrats attempted to interfere with the electoral count process. Did those actions constitute a conspiracy against rights under § 241? Under Jack Smith’s theory of the case, I think the answer is unclear, but possible.

Taking political speech and political acts of this sort and shoehorning them into criminal statutes that have never before been used in this way is terrifying. Political candidates should not live in fear of prosecution by their political opponents for stating their views about their elections.

Jack Smith, in his rush to “get Trump,” has done serious violence to our constitutional order and Bill of Rights.

Quote:3. Proving Trump’s Specific Intent

Section 241 is a statute that was originally designed to deal with violence against black voters by the Ku Klux Klan, and other similar efforts to deprive people of their constitutional rights. Jack Smith’s use of it here is outrageous on its face, designed to inflame perhaps more than anything else. But there are also serious legal issues that Smith and his team seem to have been willing to ignore in terms of the statute’s applicability to the facts alleged.

In United States v. Guest, the Supreme Court grappled with the constitutionality of this statute, facing an argument that it was unconstitutionally vague and overbroad. The Supreme Court ultimately held that the statute was constitutional, but only because of the heightened intent requirements that follow from it being a conspiracy statute. In the Supreme Court’s words, “[a] specific intent to interfere with the federal right [at issue] must be proved” on the part of the alleged conspirators. Only because of that specific intent requirement was the prosecution in that case allowable, and was the statute itself deemed to pass constitutional muster.

Eight years later, in Anderson v. United States, the Supreme Court addressed the applicability of § 241 to a scheme to cast fake votes for federal, state, and local candidates in West Virginia. The court cautioned that “[i]t is established that since the gravamen of the offense under § 241 is conspiracy, the prosecution must show that the offender acted with a specific intent to interfere with the federal rights in question.” Furthermore, the court stated that “special care” was warranted in assessing this intent, because “charges of conspiracy are not to be made out by piling inference upon inference, thus fashioning … a dragnet to draw in all substantive crimes.”[/size]

To prove his case, it’s not enough for Jack Smith to prove that Trump and his alleged co-conspirators sought to overturn certified election results — he needs to prove they acted with specific intent to deprive people of the right to have their votes counted. This cannot be established by inference, under binding Supreme Court precedent. Smith needs evidence that Trump’s intent was specifically to deprive people of their right to have their votes counted.

On the face of the indictment and public record, it doesn’t appear he has anything close to meeting this high bar.

Quote:4. Proving a Fraud Conspiracy

Section 371 is a statute that criminalizes defrauding the federal government or interfering in lawful functions of government. Its origins are in the tax fraud context, and it was originally cabined closely to property fraud against the federal government. Even after the statute was expanded, though, the Supreme Court has urged caution throughout the statute’s history that a conspiracy charge relating to the obstruction of governmental functions must be premised on the use of “deceit, craft or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest,” as was decided in Hammerschmidt v. United States. “Open defiance” of the law, for example, cannot give rise to a § 371 charge.

Courts have consistently held that obtaining a conviction under this statute requires both the existence of an agreement to achieve an unlawful objective, as well as deliberate, knowing, and specific intent to participate in that agreement.

Smith’s theory is that Trump and his alleged co-conspirators conspired to “defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the presidential election are collected, counted, and certified by the federal government.” But in light of the requirements for proving fraud conspiracy under § 371, Smith needs to show that Trump and his team knew their theories were groundless when they promoted them to state legislators and other decision-makers in the electoral count process and encouraged those officials to take various official actions. And that Trump and his team agreed this was the plan — promoting theories they knew were groundless, based on facts that they knew were false, to these legislators and officials.

The fact that Trump received advice to the contrary just doesn’t cut it, from a legal perspective, when it comes to proving a fraud conspiracy under § 371. This charge appears to be dead on arrival from a legal perspective.

Quote:5. Misapplication of Obstruction Law

Section 1512 was originally enacted as part of the Sarbanes Oxley Act in 2002, intended to deal with the fallout from the Enron collapse and investigations. Subsection ©, under which Trump has been charged, deals primarily with destroying evidence in advance of judicial proceedings or legislative inquiries, but it also contains a catchall provision that criminalizes corruptly “obstructing” an official proceeding.

The Biden DOJ has used this catchall provision, controversially, to prosecute Jan. 6 defendants, and two of the counts in this new indictment track this theory — that Trump’s activities and statements constituted an obstruction of an official proceeding, namely the electoral count process.

This is an issue that is expected to come before the Supreme Court sooner rather than later. In a sharply divided panel opinion this April, the D.C. Circuit allowed § 1512 charges to proceed against three Jan. 6 defendants. But it did so only on the basis that, in the words of Judge Justin Walker’s decisive concurrence, the act’s requirement of a “corrupt” mental state on the part of the defendants sharply delimited its scope. In Walker’s view, to convict under this statute, a defendant must have acted with the specific intent “to procure an unlawful benefit either for himself or for some other person.” (Judge Katsas dissented and would have dismissed the charges entirely).

Under this reading of the statute, it is not enough that Trump (and, in the case of the conspiracy charge, his alleged co-conspirators) called for protests. It is not enough that Trump tried to prevent the certification of the election or the counting of electoral votes. Trump could have burned down the Capitol personally and that wouldn’t necessarily meet this high bar. He must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have done what he did to procure a benefit for himself that he knew to be unlawful. As with the other statutes discussed above, this is a very high bar to meet, and the facts as presented simply do not support this charge.

Quote:6. Perfectly Timing the Trial for Election Season

As he did with his original indictment in the documents, Jack Smith accompanied his announcement of charges yesterday with a cynical call for a “speedy trial.” More than anything else, Smith’s insistence that these cases that he is bringing should be tried at the height of a presidential election adds fuel to the fire of Trump’s expressed view that the special counsel is waging a political campaign against him, not a valid legal investigation.

There is simply no reason why this case needs to be litigated now, as opposed to two years ago, or as opposed to after the presidential election in 2024. In the documents case, Smith followed his speedy trial call with a voluminous discovery production consisting of close to a million pages of documentary evidence, nine months of video recordings, and terabytes of data to be analyzed by Trump’s defense team. He then proceeded to file a superseding indictment adding new charges and a new defendant. That case was either ready for trial at the time it was brought, or it wasn’t, but Smith can’t have it both ways — his public statements and court filings amount to a gaslighting of the federal court and indeed of the American people.

In this case, the timing concerns are even more severe. The facts at issue date back to 2020 and the first few days of 2021. President Trump has already been impeached and acquitted for the same conduct he now faces these criminal charges for. Trump is now running to be president again (and winning in many polls).

Inserting this case into the presidential election season has all the appearances of an attempt by Smith to substitute the judgment of his office, a single judge, and 12 D.C. jurors for the millions of Americans who would otherwise have had the opportunity to weigh these facts, alongside all the other political considerations that go into a presidential election. These millions of Americans will likely be faced with a choice to vote for Smith’s boss, Joe Biden, or his likely opponent, Donald Trump.

Prosecuting a political opponent during a presidential election in this manner smacks of banana republic politics.


https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fth...suspect%2F

Smith is a hack and has been slapped down by SCOTUS before. In this former federal prosecutor's opinion, his case is really thin and appears politically motivated.

The objective by the left - and their current gopher Smith - is to continue to hound/harass Trump throughout the 2024 election campaign. The left - including this stunningly corrupt Biden* Administration - has one prime objective: Deny Trump. By ANY means necessary.

The Dems still harbor those painful memories of the ALL TIME Presidential Election choke job by Hillary! in 2016. That MASSIVE choke job truly was an historic burn on the Dems collective @sses. Many were literally driven to tears when the results rolled across the network screens around 200am.

So, without question - the Dems absolutely have serious hatred for Trump for the pain he inflicted on them 7 years ago.

The murderous 2020 Kung flu resulting in the shut down of the USA and 130am stuffing of fake ballots in the key swing states was simply a partial payback to 45. Too bad so many citizens globally had to die: I'm sure Biden* appreciates their sacrifice to HIS greater good.

The Dems are determined to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to deny Trump again.

Smith's charges are simply the next link in the DENY TRUMP obsession. I am sure there are more "deny" tactics already planned.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2023 12:39 PM by boss man.)
08-04-2023 12:37 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #225
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:17 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Gee, who would I tend to believe more?

A former Federal Prosecutor or our local lawyer expert who seems awfully invested in seeing Trump brought down?

Jack Smith has a reputation for a reason. He's a weasel.

Mile High,

Why would a former prosecutor gloss over the difference between action and speech? Does that seem odd in any way to you? Why doesn't he even bother with denoting the very well known actions of Trump in this thing? Those might be a good set of questions to ponder.
08-04-2023 12:52 PM
Find all posts by this user
MileHighBronco Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 34,608
Joined: Mar 2005
Reputation: 1770
I Root For: Broncos
Location: Forgotten Time Zone
Post: #226
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:24 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:17 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Gee, who would I tend to believe more?

A former Federal Prosecutor or our local lawyer expert who seems awfully invested in seeing Trump brought down?

Maybe try addressing the issues raised. Or run away from them. You be you. Quite the brave person there to run away from the issues in my post. Pretty much all either direct quotes from your person, followed by the facts in the indictment.

Or just run away.

Quote:Jack Smith has a reputation for a reason. He's a weasel.

From what? Please be specific.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat legal issues discussion with you, a lawyer. Wouldn't be a fair fight.

I posted that article to show that YOUR opinion is not the only one and that others see this much differently. You wrote your opinion. Repeatedly.

Now, it will be up to the courts, an institution I USED to have respect for. No longer do I feel that way. Our justice system has been corrupted. I don't know for certain if some judges have been compromised or blackmailed but something is not right. It seems the only people that can't see the issues with our justice system are those who work in it.

IF Trump is tried in a D.C. court, he has virtually no chance, as the jury pool would be drawn from a population who voted 90+% for Joe Biden. In that case, facts won't matter. Politics will decide the verdict. The politics of the jury members.

My opinion is this is just the 3,485th attempt by the left to take Trump down or tie him up in lawfare. You don't like my opinion? Tough. Go pound sand. Or write another two page manifesto, like you do so well.

I'm not going to help you stroke your massive ego by beating up on folks that are not lawyers. You be you and I'll be me.
08-04-2023 12:57 PM
Find all posts by this user
oruvoice Offline
Howler Monkey
*

Posts: 11,372
Joined: Aug 2004
Reputation: 1598
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Tulsa
Post: #227
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
I find it amusing when a Rep comes under investigation, that they assume guilt.

Then, when a Dem comes under investigation, they say wait to see all the facts.

Liars. Phonies. All of them.
08-04-2023 12:57 PM
Find all posts by this user
450bench Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 34,232
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 3086
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Memphis
Post: #228
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:57 PM)oruvoice Wrote:  I find it amusing when a Rep comes under investigation, that they assume guilt.

Then, when a Dem comes under investigation, they say wait to see all the facts.

Liars. Phonies. All of them.

Absolutely
08-04-2023 01:03 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #229
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:57 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:24 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:17 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Gee, who would I tend to believe more?

A former Federal Prosecutor or our local lawyer expert who seems awfully invested in seeing Trump brought down?

Maybe try addressing the issues raised. Or run away from them. You be you. Quite the brave person there to run away from the issues in my post. Pretty much all either direct quotes from your person, followed by the facts in the indictment.

Or just run away.

Quote:Jack Smith has a reputation for a reason. He's a weasel.

From what? Please be specific.

I'm not going to get into a tit for tat legal issues discussion with you, a lawyer. Wouldn't be a fair fight.

I posted that article to show that YOUR opinion is not the only one and that others see this much differently. You wrote your opinion. Repeatedly.

Now, it will be up to the courts, an institution I USED to have respect for. No longer do I feel that way. Our justice system has been corrupted. I don't know for certain if some judges have been compromised or blackmailed but something is not right. It seems the only people that can't see the issues with our justice system are those who work in it.

IF Trump is tried in a D.C. court, he has virtually no chance, as the jury pool would be drawn from a population who voted 90+% for Joe Biden. In that case, facts won't matter. Politics will decide the verdict. The politics of the jury members.

My opinion is this is just the 3,485th attempt by the left to take Trump down or tie him up in lawfare. You don't like my opinion? Tough. Go pound sand. Or write another two page manifesto, like you do so well.

I'm not going to help you stroke your massive ego by beating up on folks that are not lawyers. You be you and I'll be me.

Mile High -- a non-legal set of questions ---

Why would a former prosecutor gloss over the difference (a very basic and crucial difference) between action and speech? Does that seem odd in any way to you? Why doesn't he even bother with denoting the very well known actions of Trump in this thing? No ego of mine attached to those questions. I actually agree that First Amendment protected activity is by definition legal. And shouldnt be charged.

And a second -- I keep hearing about Jack Smith being a 'weasel', and his sleazy rep. I would simply like to know *why* that is to some.

It seems to be thrown out a lot, and I would like to have more under my belt than a general and non-specific allegation.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2023 01:23 PM by tanqtonic.)
08-04-2023 01:20 PM
Find all posts by this user
MileHighBronco Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 34,608
Joined: Mar 2005
Reputation: 1770
I Root For: Broncos
Location: Forgotten Time Zone
Post: #230
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
Professor Turley and Alan Dershowitz disagree with your view as well, Tanq.

Quote:“This is a free speech-killing indictment. There’s no way around it. I write a great deal in academia in the free-speech area, and I have rarely seen a more chilling filing by the Department of Justice,” Turley said.

“The question that people have to ask themselves is, when is the price too high? People are obviously enraged, but what is the price too high to bag Donald Trump? This indictment is a prohibitive cost. Meaning what they are attempting to do is criminalize what they consider to be disinformation,” he added.

“And I have to tell you, this indictment is really sad moment for me. I hoped that Smith is going to indict on January 6th, that he would find unassailable evidence and unquestioned legal authority. He has neither in this indictment,” Turley added.

“This is a speaking indictment but it doesn’t say very much. It basically just says that we think Trump is lying that he actually didn’t believe this. I can’t tell you how faciously ridiculous this claim is. It starts up by saying, of course, you can say false things in the campaign, but then says that Trump knew they were false. Is that the test going forward in terms of criminalizing political speech?” Turley continued.

“Smith is just not only going to have to just bulldoze through the First Amendment, he’s going to have to bulldoze through a line of cases by the Supreme Court,” he said.

Quote:“You know the worst thing about this indictment, under the terms of this indictment, Jack Smith can be indicted. Let me explain to you why,” Dershowitz said. “The statute says the following, two or more persons conspire to injure and deny somebody the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured him by the constitution.

“What if a court ultimately rules that Donald Trump had a right under the First Amendment to make his Jan. 6 speech and to do what he did? Then Jack Smith will have conspired to deny him of that right. That’s how serious this is,” Dershowitz said.

“Jack Smith … deliberately, willfully and maliciously leaves out the words that President Trump spoke on Jan. 6 in his terrible speech, which I disagree with, but what he said was, ‘I want you to assemble peacefully and patriotically,’” Dershowitz noted further (see below).

“Jack [Smith] leaves that out. That is a lie, a lie, an omission lie, and if you’re going to indict somebody for telling lies, don’t tell lies in the indictment,” Dershowitz continued. “If you’re going to indict somebody for denying people their constitutional rights, don’t deny them their constitutional rights by indicting them for free speech. That’s how hypocritical this is.”

https://republicbrief.com/jack-smiths-in...-at-court/
08-04-2023 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #231
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 12:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  It’s absolutely a banana republic.
The left has created it, perpetuated it, nurtured it and, as we see here daily from the resident libs, denied it.

All you have to do to see proof is watch ABC, nbc, cbs news for a few minutes at the top of an hour sometime. See what their agenda try to brainwash you with.
See what they prop up and see what they criticize or scoff at.

It’s hilarious.

Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.

How do you classify the "I was asked by Trump and by his clown car attorneys to overturn the election" comment by Pence?

Doesnt that seem to fit in with a person willing to break the law "in order to get their own way"?

How is that different from your comment against the left on what the left has done "in order to get their own way"?

I actually agree that the left has done a lot in order to achieve their goals, no doubt.

I find it odd that that defense or rationale is used in order to ostensibly protect someone who is willing to ask to have an election overturned, ostensibly "in order to get their own way."
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2023 01:44 PM by tanqtonic.)
08-04-2023 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #232
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 01:28 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Professor Turley and Alan Dershowitz disagree with your view as well, Tanq.

Quote:“This is a free speech-killing indictment. There’s no way around it. I write a great deal in academia in the free-speech area, and I have rarely seen a more chilling filing by the Department of Justice,” Turley said.

“The question that people have to ask themselves is, when is the price too high? People are obviously enraged, but what is the price too high to bag Donald Trump? This indictment is a prohibitive cost. Meaning what they are attempting to do is criminalize what they consider to be disinformation,” he added.

“And I have to tell you, this indictment is really sad moment for me. I hoped that Smith is going to indict on January 6th, that he would find unassailable evidence and unquestioned legal authority. He has neither in this indictment,” Turley added.

“This is a speaking indictment but it doesn’t say very much. It basically just says that we think Trump is lying that he actually didn’t believe this. I can’t tell you how faciously ridiculous this claim is. It starts up by saying, of course, you can say false things in the campaign, but then says that Trump knew they were false. Is that the test going forward in terms of criminalizing political speech?” Turley continued.

“Smith is just not only going to have to just bulldoze through the First Amendment, he’s going to have to bulldoze through a line of cases by the Supreme Court,” he said.

Quote:“You know the worst thing about this indictment, under the terms of this indictment, Jack Smith can be indicted. Let me explain to you why,” Dershowitz said. “The statute says the following, two or more persons conspire to injure and deny somebody the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured him by the constitution.

“What if a court ultimately rules that Donald Trump had a right under the First Amendment to make his Jan. 6 speech and to do what he did? Then Jack Smith will have conspired to deny him of that right. That’s how serious this is,” Dershowitz said.

“Jack Smith … deliberately, willfully and maliciously leaves out the words that President Trump spoke on Jan. 6 in his terrible speech, which I disagree with, but what he said was, ‘I want you to assemble peacefully and patriotically,’” Dershowitz noted further (see below).

“Jack [Smith] leaves that out. That is a lie, a lie, an omission lie, and if you’re going to indict somebody for telling lies, don’t tell lies in the indictment,” Dershowitz continued. “If you’re going to indict somebody for denying people their constitutional rights, don’t deny them their constitutional rights by indicting them for free speech. That’s how hypocritical this is.”

https://republicbrief.com/jack-smiths-in...-at-court/

If you note, both are talking about Trump's *speech* to the crowd on Jan 6.

I actually agree that that *speech* is protected.

Turley only talks about 'false speech'. Again, Trump generally has *every* right to spout the wackadoodle crap about 'the DOJ having incontrovertible evidence' on fraud, when in fact Meadows and ten other people told him just the opposite.

The issue at hand isnt 'Trump talking wackadoodle crap', it is about him *taking actions* to reject slates of voters, duly certified by their states, out of hand -- that is simply 'because'. Not just that action, but *that action* was described explicitly by the attorney author as having no basis in being legal. And later described by that same attorney author as a "violation [of the Federal electoral law]" in a later text to Pence.

He took concrete actions to do this. *That* is the brunt of the first conspiracy in the three conspiracies indictment.

They dont even talk about the *actions* of trying to reject the slates of electors in those pieces.

Those pieces for the most part I actually agree with.

As fing disgusting as it was, Trump had every First Amendment right to make that incendiary speech on Jan 6 to that crowd.

And as utterly fing stupid as it is, Trump has every right to falsely spout the crap about what the DOJ has found.

But that isnt what the indictments touch on.

They touch on taking *actions* to deny (not just saying words) the electoral slates of New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania *their* right to vote as electors. That is their right *as certified* by their own states.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2023 01:46 PM by tanqtonic.)
08-04-2023 01:43 PM
Find all posts by this user
BigTigerMike Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 24,835
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 1195
I Root For: Memphis Tigers
Location:
Post: #233
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
So what are you trying to say Doris? Hmmm!

08-04-2023 02:20 PM
Find all posts by this user
oruvoice Offline
Howler Monkey
*

Posts: 11,372
Joined: Aug 2004
Reputation: 1598
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Tulsa
Post: #234
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 02:20 PM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  So what are you trying to say Doris? Hmmm!


The Orange Dude really did (mentally & emotionally) break these people. 03-lmfao
08-04-2023 02:31 PM
Find all posts by this user
BartlettTigerFan Offline
Have gun Will travel
*

Posts: 47,638
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation: 6844
I Root For: Freedom
Location: Undetermined
Post: #235
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
[Image: 46a350dd0b3c4afc.png]
08-04-2023 02:44 PM
Find all posts by this user
450bench Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 34,232
Joined: Feb 2005
Reputation: 3086
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Memphis
Post: #236
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  It’s absolutely a banana republic.
The left has created it, perpetuated it, nurtured it and, as we see here daily from the resident libs, denied it.

All you have to do to see proof is watch ABC, nbc, cbs news for a few minutes at the top of an hour sometime. See what their agenda try to brainwash you with.
See what they prop up and see what they criticize or scoff at.

It’s hilarious.

Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.

How do you classify the "I was asked by Trump and by his clown car attorneys to overturn the election" comment by Pence?

Doesnt that seem to fit in with a person willing to break the law "in order to get their own way"?

How is that different from your comment against the left on what the left has done "in order to get their own way"?

I actually agree that the left has done a lot in order to achieve their goals, no doubt.

I find it odd that that defense or rationale is used in order to ostensibly protect someone who is willing to ask to have an election overturned, ostensibly "in order to get their own way."

Trump wanted Pence to exercise his right as VP to investigate the irregularities of the election.
Everybody knows that he can’t “overturn” the results but he can slow the process down so fraud and irregularities can be investigated.
And there were plenty of irregularities in that election.

Spin that however you want.

Care to dive into the framing and overthrow attempt the left performed while Trump was in office with coordinated fictionalized charges from all angles of left leaning governing bodies in order to get Trump out? The crooked FBI, Hillary’s team, congressman, senators etc etc.

The left started the lies and fabrication and blame Trump for calling them out from the start.

The left are criminals. Plain and simple.
08-04-2023 02:59 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #237
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 02:59 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  It’s absolutely a banana republic.
The left has created it, perpetuated it, nurtured it and, as we see here daily from the resident libs, denied it.

All you have to do to see proof is watch ABC, nbc, cbs news for a few minutes at the top of an hour sometime. See what their agenda try to brainwash you with.
See what they prop up and see what they criticize or scoff at.

It’s hilarious.

Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.

How do you classify the "I was asked by Trump and by his clown car attorneys to overturn the election" comment by Pence?

Doesnt that seem to fit in with a person willing to break the law "in order to get their own way"?

How is that different from your comment against the left on what the left has done "in order to get their own way"?

I actually agree that the left has done a lot in order to achieve their goals, no doubt.

I find it odd that that defense or rationale is used in order to ostensibly protect someone who is willing to ask to have an election overturned, ostensibly "in order to get their own way."

Trump wanted Pence to exercise his right as VP to investigate the irregularities of the election.
Everybody knows that he can’t “overturn” the results but he can slow the process down so fraud and irregularities can be investigated.

Pence (direct quote): "the president ultimately, ultimately continued to demand that I choose him over the Constitution."

Pence (direct quote): "President Trump and his advisers didn't just ask me to pause, they asked me to reject votes, return votes, to overturn the election,”

Quote:And there were plenty of irregularities in that election.

Spin that however you want.

Pence (direct quote): "President Trump and his advisers didn't just ask me to pause, they asked me to reject votes, return votes, to overturn the election,”

Not my spin.... the direct quote from the direct witness to act. But go get em sparky....

Quote:Care to dive into the framing and overthrow attempt the left performed while Trump was in office with coordinated fictionalized charges from all angles of left leaning governing bodies in order to get Trump out? The crooked FBI, Hillary’s team, congressman, senators etc etc.

"[The] President.... asked me ..... to overturn the election."

What does that have anything to do with the laundry list above? Are you trying to excuse someone for trying to "overturn the election"? Seriously?

Quote:The left started the lies and fabrication and blame Trump for calling them out from the start.

How is that an excuse to directly and explicity "overturn the election"?

Quote:The left are criminals. Plain and simple.

I may not disagree to some sort.

"[The] President.... asked me ..... to overturn the election."
08-04-2023 03:25 PM
Find all posts by this user
shere khan Offline
Southerner
*

Posts: 76,597
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 10822
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Russia
Post: #238
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 02:20 PM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  So what are you trying to say Doris? Hmmm!


Reeeeeeeeee03-hissyfit

These fricks hate America.
08-04-2023 03:26 PM
Find all posts by this user
shere khan Offline
Southerner
*

Posts: 76,597
Joined: Mar 2004
Reputation: 10822
I Root For: Memphis
Location: Russia
Post: #239
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 02:59 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:24 AM)450bench Wrote:  It’s absolutely a banana republic.
The left has created it, perpetuated it, nurtured it and, as we see here daily from the resident libs, denied it.

All you have to do to see proof is watch ABC, nbc, cbs news for a few minutes at the top of an hour sometime. See what their agenda try to brainwash you with.
See what they prop up and see what they criticize or scoff at.

It’s hilarious.

Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.

How do you classify the "I was asked by Trump and by his clown car attorneys to overturn the election" comment by Pence?

Doesnt that seem to fit in with a person willing to break the law "in order to get their own way"?

How is that different from your comment against the left on what the left has done "in order to get their own way"?

I actually agree that the left has done a lot in order to achieve their goals, no doubt.

I find it odd that that defense or rationale is used in order to ostensibly protect someone who is willing to ask to have an election overturned, ostensibly "in order to get their own way."

Trump wanted Pence to exercise his right as VP to investigate the irregularities of the election.
Everybody knows that he can’t “overturn” the results but he can slow the process down so fraud and irregularities can be investigated.
And there were plenty of irregularities in that election.

Spin that however you want.

Care to dive into the framing and overthrow attempt the left performed while Trump was in office with coordinated fictionalized charges from all angles of left leaning governing bodies in order to get Trump out? The crooked FBI, Hillary’s team, congressman, senators etc etc.

The left started the lies and fabrication and blame Trump for calling them out from the start.

The left are criminals. Plain and simple.

They are brownshirts no lie.

It doesnt bother idiots.

Is our board idiot lawyer still losing his case here? I ignore the low iq statist pawn.

Never mind, dont care.
(This post was last modified: 08-04-2023 03:28 PM by shere khan.)
08-04-2023 03:26 PM
Find all posts by this user
tanqtonic Online
Legend
*

Posts: 25,662
Joined: Nov 2016
Reputation: 1149
I Root For: rice
Location:
Post: #240
RE: New charges brought against Trump. Four counts.
(08-04-2023 03:26 PM)shere khan Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 02:59 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 01:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 12:16 PM)450bench Wrote:  
(08-04-2023 09:33 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Pence: I had no right to overturn the election as asked by Trump.

I had no idea Trump was a left winger. Thanks for clearing that up.

What’s clear is what the left has done to this country in order to get their way. That’s what’s clear.
If you don’t see that, you’re beyond help.

How do you classify the "I was asked by Trump and by his clown car attorneys to overturn the election" comment by Pence?

Doesnt that seem to fit in with a person willing to break the law "in order to get their own way"?

How is that different from your comment against the left on what the left has done "in order to get their own way"?

I actually agree that the left has done a lot in order to achieve their goals, no doubt.

I find it odd that that defense or rationale is used in order to ostensibly protect someone who is willing to ask to have an election overturned, ostensibly "in order to get their own way."

Trump wanted Pence to exercise his right as VP to investigate the irregularities of the election.
Everybody knows that he can’t “overturn” the results but he can slow the process down so fraud and irregularities can be investigated.
And there were plenty of irregularities in that election.

Spin that however you want.

Care to dive into the framing and overthrow attempt the left performed while Trump was in office with coordinated fictionalized charges from all angles of left leaning governing bodies in order to get Trump out? The crooked FBI, Hillary’s team, congressman, senators etc etc.

The left started the lies and fabrication and blame Trump for calling them out from the start.

The left are criminals. Plain and simple.

They are brownshirts no lie.

It doesnt bother idiots.

"brownshirts".

"[The] President.... asked me ..... to overturn the election."

Rich comment shere, absurdly rich.
08-04-2023 03:28 PM
Find all posts by this user
Thread Closed 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2026 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2026 MyBB Group.