(02-27-2022 04:44 PM)hburg Wrote:  

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No point in doing that. Where are they going to operate from? What they need is anti-aircraft missile batteries capable of taking down strike aircraft along with higher flying warplanes.

I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

(02-27-2022 05:13 PM)hburg Wrote:  I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

Of course there is a simple way to end the NATO "aggression". Russian need only stop the violence, return to their borders, and work via negotiations. Ask yourself this---why are nukes being threatened? If he saw it as an act of war, why not move some of your 170,000 conventional troops toward the Baltics and threaten NATO with something they arent really in a position right now to counter? It can only mean that Putin sees the idea of inviting a conventional war with NATO as being much more damaging to his own goals than the status quo---and he knows NATO thinks the same. He knows the last thing he needs to do is open a second front against a much larger, much better armed enemy. Thus, he needs to find something that does worry NATO....like nukes.

(02-27-2022 05:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:13 PM)hburg Wrote:  I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

Of course there is a simple way to end the NATO "aggression". Russian need only stop the violence, return to their borders, and work via negotiations. Ask yourself this---why are nukes being threatened? If he saw it as an act of war, why not move some of your 170,000 conventional troops toward the Baltics and threaten NATO with something they arent really in a position right now to counter? It can only mean that Putin sees the idea of inviting a conventional war with NATO as being much more damaging to his own goals than the status quo---and he knows NATO thinks the same. He knows the last thing he needs to do is open a second front against a much larger, much better armed enemy. Thus, he needs to find something that does worry NATO....like nukes.

I dont think the nuke threat is for Ukraine.

(02-27-2022 05:43 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:13 PM)hburg Wrote:  I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

Of course there is a simple way to end the NATO "aggression". Russian need only stop the violence, return to their borders, and work via negotiations. Ask yourself this---why are nukes being threatened? If he saw it as an act of war, why not move some of your 170,000 conventional troops toward the Baltics and threaten NATO with something they arent really in a position right now to counter? It can only mean that Putin sees the idea of inviting a conventional war with NATO as being much more damaging to his own goals than the status quo---and he knows NATO thinks the same. He knows the last thing he needs to do is open a second front against a much larger, much better armed enemy. Thus, he needs to find something that does worry NATO....like nukes.

I dont think the nuke threat is for Ukraine.

Correct. My point is why is he making a nuclear threat against the west when he has a substantial conventional force advantage in Balkans? Its because the absolute worst strategic outcome for Putin is a second front against a conventional enemy that is his equal or better. NATO is an enemy that would instantly reduce his biggest two advantages----numerical superiority and control of the air. The only thing worse than a second front is an unplanned second front.

Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

(02-27-2022 06:51 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:43 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:13 PM)hburg Wrote:  I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

Of course there is a simple way to end the NATO "aggression". Russian need only stop the violence, return to their borders, and work via negotiations. Ask yourself this---why are nukes being threatened? If he saw it as an act of war, why not move some of your 170,000 conventional troops toward the Baltics and threaten NATO with something they arent really in a position right now to counter? It can only mean that Putin sees the idea of inviting a conventional war with NATO as being much more damaging to his own goals than the status quo---and he knows NATO thinks the same. He knows the last thing he needs to do is open a second front against a much larger, much better armed enemy. Thus, he needs to find something that does worry NATO....like nukes.

I dont think the nuke threat is for Ukraine.

Correct. My point is why is he making a nuclear threat against the west when he has a substantial conventional force advantage in Balkans? Its because the absolute worst strategic outcome for Putin is a second front against a conventional enemy that is his equal or better. NATO is an enemy that would instantly reduce his biggest two advantage----numerical superiority and control of the air. The only thing worse than a second front is an unplanned second front.

The nuke threat is being used now because, at the moment, the Russians have a hypersonic missile that will likely avoid our existing defenses.

(02-27-2022 07:34 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 06:51 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:43 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 05:13 PM)hburg Wrote:  I can see Putin seeing this as NATO aggression and will act accordingly. Even though Europe isn't supplying troops, they sure are supplying arms and supplies which is similar to already declaring war without actually declaring it against Russia. If Putin uses tactical nukes in Ukraine or elsewhere, I can see a declaration of war being issued.

Of course there is a simple way to end the NATO "aggression". Russian need only stop the violence, return to their borders, and work via negotiations. Ask yourself this---why are nukes being threatened? If he saw it as an act of war, why not move some of your 170,000 conventional troops toward the Baltics and threaten NATO with something they arent really in a position right now to counter? It can only mean that Putin sees the idea of inviting a conventional war with NATO as being much more damaging to his own goals than the status quo---and he knows NATO thinks the same. He knows the last thing he needs to do is open a second front against a much larger, much better armed enemy. Thus, he needs to find something that does worry NATO....like nukes.

I dont think the nuke threat is for Ukraine.

Correct. My point is why is he making a nuclear threat against the west when he has a substantial conventional force advantage in Balkans? Its because the absolute worst strategic outcome for Putin is a second front against a conventional enemy that is his equal or better. NATO is an enemy that would instantly reduce his biggest two advantage----numerical superiority and control of the air. The only thing worse than a second front is an unplanned second front.

The nuke threat is being used now because, at the moment, the Russians have a hypersonic missile that will likely avoid our existing defenses.

There are questions about that. But regardless, assuming you could stop all incoming Nukes is a foolish position. If he nukes us, Moscow will be nuked over and over until it glows like a neon sign. Nobody wins a nuclear exchange. Mutually guaranteed destruction has always been the whole basis of "deterrence".

Something interesting to watch. I think its possible economic panic could hit Monday. The Ruble is supposed to drop as much as 50% in value. Lines are already forming in Russian cities to get cash at ATMs. There isnt that much cash anymore in this digital world. Theres going to be a shortage of physical money. Many electronic payment systems have already ceased working. For instance, I understand Apple pay has already ceased functioning there. Furthermore, business and business travel is about to become a real pain in the butt for Russian companies.

Honestly---because its never really been done before---I dont think anyone really knows the entire fall out from these kinds of sanctions moves---but a 50% reduction in buying power in an already record setting inflationary environment wont take long to create substantial friction between the Russian people and Putin. I just dont think most Russians actually believe taking Ukraine is worth the normal functioning of their individual family budgets. This may not take that long to get a cease fire and move toward a reasonable negotiated settlement. Hopefully, Ukraine can hang on that long.

The Russian soldiers have nothing to fight for. Morale has to be very low, especially if they aren't getting fed and have to steal food and water.

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

I wonder if the civilian casualty figures are about to rise drastically. Eagleaidaholic has a good point.

"Honestly---because its never really been done before---I dont think anyone really knows the entire fall out from these kinds of sanctions moves---but a 50% reduction in buying power in an already record setting inflationary environment wont take long to create substantial friction between the Russian people and Putin. I dont think most in Russians think Ukraine is worth the normal functioning of their individual family budgets."

It doesn't matter. Putin is holding all the aces because like True Doh he has the government lackies with prisons and rifles on his side. The only way would be for a military coup. That wouldn't guarantee a more democratic system but at least the wing nut wouldn't be in charge. No one wants a nuclear war, that is, if you're sane.

(02-27-2022 07:57 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  The Russian soldiers have nothing to fight for. Morale has to be very low, especially if they aren't getting fed and have to steal food and water.

I believe they were clearly lied to, or for the sake of forgetting my bias they are getting a different story than we are. But, now that they are invading and killing Ukrainians some of them have to be saying to themselves wtf are we doing here.


I would not take it off the table that a tactical nuke goes off on Russian territory and Putin lays out evidence that the Ukrainians never actually gave up all of their nuclear weapons. That will galvanize his populace and give him the excuse to use his own tactical nukes in future attacks.

(02-27-2022 08:00 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  "Honestly---because its never really been done before---I dont think anyone really knows the entire fall out from these kinds of sanctions moves---but a 50% reduction in buying power in an already record setting inflationary environment wont take long to create substantial friction between the Russian people and Putin. I dont think most in Russians think Ukraine is worth the normal functioning of their individual family budgets."

It doesn't matter. Putin is holding all the aces because like True Doh he has the government lackies with prisons and rifles on his side. The only way would be for a military coup. That wouldn't guarantee a more democratic system but at least the wing nut wouldn't be in charge. No one wants a nuclear war, that is, if you're sane.

To be clear, Im not expecting Putin to transform Russia to a western democracy. I just think it might be enough pressure to get him to cease military operations and move to a negotiated settlement. We'll see.

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

That’s not true. Vladimir Putin used his alien technology that beams dead bodies into space to send him to another planet. And only 5 of John Travoltas puppies survived. At least that’s what “reports are” saying. The reports no one posts a link to.

Hook, line, and sinker on naive, gullible people who don’t even know where Ukraine is, but are all playing Lazy Boy generals in their fantasy lives.

But Biden….

(02-27-2022 08:25 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

That’s not true. Vladimir Putin used his alien technology that beams dead bodies into space to send him to another planet. And only 5 of John Travoltas puppies survived. At least that’s what “reports are” saying. The reports no one posts a link to.

Hook, line, and sinker on naive, gullible people who don’t even know where Ukraine is, but are all playing Lazy Boy generals in their fantasy lives.

But Biden….

Putin is caught in a quagmire, and he has hundreds of supply trucks about 40 miles away that will feed his troops. But he aint going to get them there without going scorched earth. So, in order not to lose the support of China, he will fake negotiate, then start blowing up and bombing everything to get those supplies in there. I mean, after you bomb a kindergarten and an apartment complex, its kind of hard to go full scorched earth without making some gesture of a settlement or risking the only real support you have.

Of course, a request to proclaim Putin a war criminal is making its way to the Hague as we speak. That will complicate his life further.

But it is what it is. Putin is going to take a lot of casualties getting in there, and in order for it not to go on for days and days, he's going to have to go scorched earth.

(02-27-2022 08:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 08:25 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

That’s not true. Vladimir Putin used his alien technology that beams dead bodies into space to send him to another planet. And only 5 of John Travoltas puppies survived. At least that’s what “reports are” saying. The reports no one posts a link to.

Hook, line, and sinker on naive, gullible people who don’t even know where Ukraine is, but are all playing Lazy Boy generals in their fantasy lives.

But Biden….

Putin is caught in a quagmire, and he has hundreds of supply trucks about 40 miles away that will feed his troops. But he aint going to get them there without going scorched earth. So, in order not to lose the support of China, he will fake negotiate, then start blowing up and bombing everything to get those supplies in there. I mean, after you bomb a kindergarten and an apartment complex, its kind of hard to go full scorched earth without making some gesture of a settlement or risking the only real support you have.

Of course, a request to proclaim Putin a war criminal is making its way to the Hague as we speak. That will complicate his life further.

But it is what it is. Putin is going to take a lot of casualties getting in there, and in order for it not to go on for days and days, he's going to have to go scorched earth.

After watching the financial meltdown in Russia Monday, watch China slowly allow more and more daylight to show between China and Putin.

(02-27-2022 09:13 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 08:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 08:25 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

That’s not true. Vladimir Putin used his alien technology that beams dead bodies into space to send him to another planet. And only 5 of John Travoltas puppies survived. At least that’s what “reports are” saying. The reports no one posts a link to.

Hook, line, and sinker on naive, gullible people who don’t even know where Ukraine is, but are all playing Lazy Boy generals in their fantasy lives.

But Biden….

Putin is caught in a quagmire, and he has hundreds of supply trucks about 40 miles away that will feed his troops. But he aint going to get them there without going scorched earth. So, in order not to lose the support of China, he will fake negotiate, then start blowing up and bombing everything to get those supplies in there. I mean, after you bomb a kindergarten and an apartment complex, its kind of hard to go full scorched earth without making some gesture of a settlement or risking the only real support you have.

Of course, a request to proclaim Putin a war criminal is making its way to the Hague as we speak. That will complicate his life further.

But it is what it is. Putin is going to take a lot of casualties getting in there, and in order for it not to go on for days and days, he's going to have to go scorched earth.

After watching the financial meltdown in Russia Monday, watch China slowly allow more and more daylight to show between China and Putin.

BP is dumping their 20% stake in russian oil company Rosnef.

Some are saying the ruble may get slaughtered tomorrow.

EDIT: Already happening. Ruble down 30%.

TOKYO — The ruble plunged nearly 30% to an all-time low versus the dollar on Monday, while the euro sank after Western nations announced fresh sanctions to punish Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, including blocking some banks from the SWIFT international payments system.

Rouble plunges 30% at opening to all-time low against the US dollar -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...0c5-pinned

(02-27-2022 09:26 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 09:13 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 08:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 08:25 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(02-27-2022 07:27 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Reports that the Russians sacked their military theater chief. Off to the gulag.

That’s not true. Vladimir Putin used his alien technology that beams dead bodies into space to send him to another planet. And only 5 of John Travoltas puppies survived. At least that’s what “reports are” saying. The reports no one posts a link to. :lmfao:

Hook, line, and sinker on naive, gullible people who don’t even know where Ukraine is, but are all playing Lazy Boy generals in their fantasy lives.

But Biden….

Putin is caught in a quagmire, and he has hundreds of supply trucks about 40 miles away that will feed his troops. But he aint going to get them there without going scorched earth. So, in order not to lose the support of China, he will fake negotiate, then start blowing up and bombing everything to get those supplies in there. I mean, after you bomb a kindergarten and an apartment complex, its kind of hard to go full scorched earth without making some gesture of a settlement or risking the only real support you have.

Of course, a request to proclaim Putin a war criminal is making its way to the Hague as we speak. That will complicate his life further.

But it is what it is. Putin is going to take a lot of casualties getting in there, and in order for it not to go on for days and days, he's going to have to go scorched earth.

After watching the financial meltdown in Russia Monday, watch China slowly allow more and more daylight to show between China and Putin.

BP is dumping their 20% stake in russian oil company Rosnef.

Some are saying the ruble may get slaughtered tomorrow.

EDIT: Already happening. Ruble down 30%.

TOKYO — The ruble plunged nearly 30% to an all-time low versus the dollar on Monday, while the euro sank after Western nations announced fresh sanctions to punish Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, including blocking some banks from the SWIFT international payments system.

As it should. The world needs to punish Putin as hard as they can financially. I feel bad for the average Russian citizen who has no control over what their leaders are doing, but if it causes enough unrest at home Putin will stop his expansion dreams.

(02-27-2022 09:26 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  Rouble plunges 30% at opening to all-time low against the US dollar -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...0c5-pinned

Kinda like here since Biden*