In this topic: non-ACC fans think they can better reorganize the ACC divisions despite the ACC itself not being able to agree to that.

(11-12-2021 09:03 AM)schmolik Wrote:  UNC, Duke, Virginia, and Georgia Tech want to be together.

Start with a premise and keep rolling, even if it's bollocks.

Georgia Tech's interests in the ACC are Clemson and Florida State. Few come close to moving the needle like they do. I would however say that all three of the non-GT schools in your list value and appreciate trips to Atlanta for recruiting. It's just not reciprocated.

(11-12-2021 11:10 AM)CarlSmithCenter Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 09:53 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  Any reasons the divisions are what they are? It’s an odd grouping they have right now.

When can they be changed?

ACC Coastal
Clemson
UNC
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Virginia

ACC Atlantic
Miami
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College

Don’t understand why it’s not a Carolinas-Virginia / old Big East setup. Seems more balanced too and more rivalries.

That would make too much sense.

Clemson wants to be in a division with FSU, but if you were to swap Wake for Georgia Tech and Virginia Tech for FSU this would work and more effectively cordon off the Big East survivors from the real ACC schools. Sorry Wake. Still, scrapping divisions and going to three permanent rivals and five of the other ten every other year would make more sense.

All that has to be done to achieve this is swapping Clemson for Louisville. That way, all the VA/NC schools are still together, and Clemson is now with the GT/FSU/Miami trio.

This has been discussed before of course, but here's an alternate alignment that the ACC could have gone with in 2005. The split is (coincidentally) "Tech"s and private schools in the Coastal, and non-"Tech" publics in the Atlantic.

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL

Maryland/Boston College
Virginia/Virginia Tech

NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke

Additionally, when there were only 12 teams, even with an 8-game conference schedule, having 2 protected crossovers is feasible (the grouped pairs above could have worked for this purpose).

(11-12-2021 12:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  This has been discussed before of course, but here's an alternate alignment that the ACC could have gone with in 2005. The split is (coincidentally) "Tech"s and private schools in the Coastal, and non-"Tech" publics in the Atlantic.

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL

Maryland/Boston College
Virginia/Virginia Tech

NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke

Additionally, when there were only 12 teams, even with an 8-game conference schedule, having 2 protected crossovers is feasible (the grouped pairs above could have worked for this purpose).

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  Any reasons the divisions are what they are? It’s an odd grouping they have right now.

(11-12-2021 07:54 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  The original push to 12 was so they could put Miami and FSU in separate divisions, so ACC championship game would be an annual clash between those two for a spot in the BCS championship. VT and Miami had developed a rivalry from the Big East, so they were put together when divisions formed. BC was the odd man out from the Big East. Syracuse was put with BC when they came on, so Pitt got put in the Coastal by default. Louisville took Maryland's spot in the Atlantic when they left.

Excellent Summary. CCG was in Florida the first 5 years too, with 1 of those 10 teams being FSU or Miami.

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  When can they be changed?

Whenever 75% agree to the change.

(11-12-2021 09:56 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 08:24 AM)goofus Wrote:  I believe all the P5 conferences should get rid of their divisions. But if you had to pick 1 P5 conference especially that should get rid of its divisions it should be the ACC.

Divisions that are set up where the teams are not close together geographicly and do not have historical rivals playing each other just are not worth it. The fact that nobody can remember who is in what division is proof they make little sense.

Then you throw in a schedule with protected cross division rivals with only an 8 game conference schedule and the end result is some teams end up only playing each other once every 6 years.

It is nonsense that WF- UNC need to play OOC because they only play once every 6 years otherwise.

Its time to get the rules for the CCG changed permanently so that the ACC can finally scrap their goofy divisions. Go to a schedule with 3 protected rivals and play everybody else 50% of the time. Then have the top 2 teams go to the ccg.

Yes, all conferences should get rid of divisions. Evidence shows that rivalry and conference games are the most important to fans. Inter-conference, G5, and FCS games continue to hamper ratings. Plus, each conference seems to have an imbalance between divisions. Wisconsin continues to get torched by Eastern opponents for example. And the SEC East has been brutal until Georgias recent emergence.

Divisions are preferable in any given year because it makes competition fair. The "flaw" (if it can be called that) has been in making divisions permanent from one year to the next.

"All conferences should" base their schedule rotation around geography and rivals, and then fit divisions around that rotation.

Given that paradigm, my suggested schedule rotation which would fit into 7-team divisions would be the following groups of three with a 3rd permanent rival listed next to each; the other 10 opponents would be played twice every 4 years.

Atlantic // Coastal (or entirely generic names)
FSU(Clem)-Mia(VT)-Lou(Pitt) // BC(VT)-Syr(Clem)-Pitt(Lou)
NCSt(WF)-UNC(Duke)-UVA(VT) // GT(Clem)-Duke(UNC)-WF(NCSt)
Clem(GT,FSU,Syr) // VT(BC,Mia,UVA)

Every even year the first set of teams would switch divisions, in odd years the second set of teams would switch divisions, Clemson and Virginia Tech would be stationary. "Atlantic" and "Coastal" are actually great non-specific geographic names for divisions, unless you want to go with "A" and "B" or find corporate sponsors. Many fans can't remember who is in which division anyway, so it's not like this is adding confusion where there is none.

(11-12-2021 01:22 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  This has been discussed before of course, but here's an alternate alignment that the ACC could have gone with in 2005. The split is (coincidentally) "Tech"s and private schools in the Coastal, and non-"Tech" publics in the Atlantic.

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL

Maryland/Boston College
Virginia/Virginia Tech

NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke

Additionally, when there were only 12 teams, even with an 8-game conference schedule, having 2 protected crossovers is feasible (the grouped pairs above could have worked for this purpose).

So you don't like the trade of UNC and UVA for BC and WF?

(11-12-2021 11:14 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 09:03 AM)schmolik Wrote:  UNC, Duke, Virginia, and Georgia Tech want to be together.

Start with a premise and keep rolling, even if it's bollocks.

Georgia Tech's interests in the ACC are Clemson and Florida State. Few come close to moving the needle like they do. I would however say that all three of the non-GT schools in your list value and appreciate trips to Atlanta for recruiting. It's just not reciprocated.

GaTech DEFINITELY wants to keep Duke.

I've explained this a number of times.

The ACC didn't work like the SEC or B10 when it expanded in 2003 or again in 2011-12.

UNC, Duke, and UVa fully controlled the Conference Office and Swofford was their man. That was part of what pissed MD off about the ACC.

UNC's football recruiting has ALWAYS relied on the State of Virginia, specifically the Tidewater. UNC had trouble filling Kenan from the time the expanded to 63K. Duke can't fill an empty boot. VT would fill both Wallace Wade and Kenan. It was UNC's and Duke's ptb behind the scenes that allowed UVa to be strong-armed by the Va Governor.

The decision to put VT and GT into a football division with UNC, Duke, and UVa had been made before the vote to admit Miami and VT. It's that simple. UNC did not want to play football in a division with FSU because they could not beat FSU. The disposition of Clemson was not a factor. UNC and Duke didn't want MD in their division because MD's football traveling base had declined.

These were football revenue driven divisions by the ptb at UNC, Duke, and UVa.

NC State's and Clemson's relationship with MD and football was better. MD and Clemson could tick off a trip to Va, by rolling through Va to DC. As long and MD was in the Atlantic, recruiting areas were not horribly unbalanced.

When MD left, UNC, Duke, and UVa did not want to add Louisville so they were chucked into MD's spot instead of moving Pitt to the Atlantic.

Knowing that the underlying alignment was unfair in the long term, UNC, Duke, and UVa made sure that the divisions were written into the Constitution and ByLaws.

What GT, VT, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, or FSU wanted did not count for **** it was about what the Blue 3 could do through Swofford.


That's the story of divisions in the ACC. No one in the Coastal gets anything by a switch - that's how sweet a deal the Coastal is.

Absent growing to 15 or 18 and splitting into 3 divisions, the only thing that can pass is divisionless play which is okay with everyone in the Coastal as far as I know with the execption of Pitt. Didn't have and don't have any insights there.

Any "solution" starts with the following on division less:

UNC - Duke, UVa, NC State
UVa - UNC, VT,
Duke - UNC, GT
WF - NC State
NC State - UNC, WF
Clemson - GT, FSU
FSU - Miami
GT - Duke
VT - UVa
BC - Syracuse
Syracuse - Pitt
Miami - FSU

This is the skeleton upon which you hang the rest in a three permanent and 5 rotating every other year.

But keep in mind that the B10 West, and SEC East do not want division less play in their conferences, although depending on who goes east in the SEC that might change.

(11-12-2021 03:56 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I've explained this a number of times.

The ACC didn't work like the SEC or B10 when it expanded in 2003 or again in 2011-12.

UNC, Duke, and UVa fully controlled the Conference Office and Swofford was their man. That was part of what pissed MD off about the ACC.

UNC's football recruiting has ALWAYS relied on the State of Virginia, specifically the Tidewater. UNC had trouble filling Kenan from the time the expanded to 63K. Duke can't fill an empty boot. VT would fill both Wallace Wade and Kenan. It was UNC's and Duke's ptb behind the scenes that allowed UVa to be strong-armed by the Va Governor.

The decision to put VT and GT into a football division with UNC, Duke, and UVa had been made before the vote to admit Miami and VT. It's that simple. UNC did not want to play football in a division with FSU because they could not beat FSU. The disposition of Clemson was not a factor. UNC and Duke didn't want MD in their division because MD's football traveling base had declined.

These were football revenue driven divisions by the ptb at UNC, Duke, and UVa.

NC State's and Clemson's relationship with MD and football was better. MD and Clemson could tick off a trip to Va, by rolling through Va to DC. As long and MD was in the Atlantic, recruiting areas were not horribly unbalanced.

When MD left, UNC, Duke, and UVa did not want to add Louisville so they were chucked into MD's spot instead of moving Pitt to the Atlantic.

Knowing that the underlying alignment was unfair in the long term, UNC, Duke, and UVa made sure that the divisions were written into the Constitution and ByLaws.

What GT, VT, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, or FSU wanted did not count for **** it was about what the Blue 3 could do through Swofford.


That's the story of divisions in the ACC. No one in the Coastal gets anything by a switch - that's how sweet a deal the Coastal is.

Absent growing to 15 or 18 and splitting into 3 divisions, the only thing that can pass is divisionless play which is okay with everyone in the Coastal as far as I know with the execption of Pitt. Didn't have and don't have any insights there.

Great history, and as usual with the ACC the blame lies with UNC, UVA & Duke. Maryland was right, I long for a day when Florida State is no longer in a conference with them.

Yeah, I haven’t heard one good proposal that keeps these conference rivalries intact. Just a mess of divisions as far as I’m concerned to keep everyone happy.

From an FSU perspective, the only change I would make would be to swap GT for Louisville. Otherwise it’s fine. No divisions with 3 protected rivalries and 5 rotating games a year would be best though.

(11-12-2021 08:42 PM)3BNole Wrote:  From an FSU perspective, the only change I would make would be to swap GT for Louisville. Otherwise it’s fine. No divisions with 3 protected rivalries and 5 rotating games a year would be best though.

For 8 conference games, 3 permanent rivals works. I do think the ACC would want 9 conference games to have 5 permanent rivals.

(11-12-2021 09:15 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 08:42 PM)3BNole Wrote:  From an FSU perspective, the only change I would make would be to swap GT for Louisville. Otherwise it’s fine. No divisions with 3 protected rivalries and 5 rotating games a year would be best though.

For 8 conference games, 3 permanent rivals works. I do think the ACC would want 9 conference games to have 5 permanent rivals.

No, they'll refuse to go to 9 even then. Divisionless doesn't change anything about the OOC games with the SEC rivals or ND.

IPTAY, GTAA, and FSU's booster club are set up around points that get you tickets and parking for the games with South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. The Hokie Club is lucky to revolve around football tickets for UVa.

Iron Dukes, Ed Foundation, and UVa are all set up to build points toward basketball and especially ACC Tournament Ticket Books.

Louisville and NC State have more of a mix.

It doesn't matter how many football games are won by UNC or UVa or if Duke wins any, their ptb want their G. D. ACC Tournament Ticket Books. Even if those three wanted to evolve, they are captured by their inherent structure.

(11-12-2021 07:28 AM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  Any reasons the divisions are what they are? It’s an odd grouping they have right now.

When can they be changed?

ACC Coastal
Clemson
UNC
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Virginia

ACC Atlantic
Miami
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College

Don’t understand why it’s not a Carolinas-Virginia / old Big East setup. Seems more balanced too and more rivalries.

Swap Virginia Tech and Florida St. and I think it'll be solid. Then add protected rivalries for Virginia-VT, Clem-GT, and FSU-Miami, and let the northern 4 schools rotate a game with the NC schools.

Probably the best idea for the recruiting BS I’ve heard yet.

I never realized how much of a geographical mess the ACC is.

(11-14-2021 02:58 PM)AuzGrams Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 07:28 AM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  Any reasons the divisions are what they are? It’s an odd grouping they have right now.

When can they be changed?

ACC Coastal
Clemson
UNC
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Virginia

ACC Atlantic
Miami
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College

Don’t understand why it’s not a Carolinas-Virginia / old Big East setup. Seems more balanced too and more rivalries.

Swap Virginia Tech and Florida St. and I think it'll be solid. Then add protected rivalries for Virginia-VT, Clem-GT, and FSU-Miami, and let the northern 4 schools rotate a game with the NC schools.

Probably the best idea for the recruiting BS I’ve heard yet.

I never realized how much of a geographical mess the ACC is.

I think that's the issue, it just doesn't work. Solving one problem creates another - in the above example FSU would get an annual game with GA Tech, the nearest ACC school which solves a current problem. BUT we'd lose our annual game with Clemson which used to provide one of the rare ACC national interest games each year...and could again someday if the ACC lasts long enough. And even worse we'd get annual games with all three of the northern schools instead of the two we currently have. There is nothing in the world wrong with Pitt, Syracuse or BC but they are not schools I have the slightest interest on seeing on a Florida State football schedule every year.

The only way I can see to do it is by geography & culture (so Miami goes with the geographically northern schools), but I don't think UVA would ever allow this to happen -

NORTH
Pitt
Boston College
Syracuse
Louisville
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami

SOUTH
Florida State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest

Ultimately, the ACC is a collection of schools that don't belong together as a 14 team conference. There are smaller subgroups within the 14 that do fit together very well and when the GoR dies I think those groups will focus on escaping together to new homes, leaving the less valuable schools or those who don't fit well into a cohesive subgroup scrambling.

(11-14-2021 03:20 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(11-14-2021 02:58 PM)AuzGrams Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 07:28 AM)GoBuckeyes1047 Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 12:56 AM)AuzGrams Wrote:  Any reasons the divisions are what they are? It’s an odd grouping they have right now.

When can they be changed?

ACC Coastal
Clemson
UNC
Duke
Wake Forest
NC State
Virginia Tech
Virginia

ACC Atlantic
Miami
Florida State
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Boston College

Don’t understand why it’s not a Carolinas-Virginia / old Big East setup. Seems more balanced too and more rivalries.

Swap Virginia Tech and Florida St. and I think it'll be solid. Then add protected rivalries for Virginia-VT, Clem-GT, and FSU-Miami, and let the northern 4 schools rotate a game with the NC schools.

Probably the best idea for the recruiting BS I’ve heard yet.

I never realized how much of a geographical mess the ACC is.

I think that's the issue, it just doesn't work. Solving one problem creates another - in the above example FSU would get an annual game with GA Tech, the nearest ACC school which solves a current problem. BUT we'd lose our annual game with Clemson which used to provide one of the rare ACC national interest games each year...and could again someday if the ACC lasts long enough. And even worse we'd get annual games with all three of the northern schools instead of the two we currently have. There is nothing in the world wrong with Pitt, Syracuse or BC but they are not schools I have the slightest interest on seeing on a Florida State football schedule every year.

The only way I can see to do it is by geography & culture (so Miami goes with the geographically northern schools), but I don't think UVA would ever allow this to happen -

NORTH
Pitt
Boston College
Syracuse
Louisville
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Miami

SOUTH
Florida State
Clemson
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest

Ultimately, the ACC is a collection of schools that don't belong together as a 14 team conference. There are smaller subgroups within the 14 that do fit together very well and when the GoR dies I think those groups will focus on escaping together to new homes, leaving the less valuable schools or those who don't fit well into a cohesive subgroup scrambling.

Coastal - Clemson, UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, NC State, Virginia Tech, Virginia

Atlantic - Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Pitt, Syracuse, Boston College

Protected cross-division rivalry: GT-Clemson, Miami-VT, anyone else??

It’s just a mess, man. Almost better to create a new Big East type football league again. Like the Metro Conference 2.0 or something.

(11-12-2021 08:02 PM)Gamenole Wrote:  

(11-12-2021 03:56 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I've explained this a number of times.

The ACC didn't work like the SEC or B10 when it expanded in 2003 or again in 2011-12.

UNC, Duke, and UVa fully controlled the Conference Office and Swofford was their man. That was part of what pissed MD off about the ACC.

UNC's football recruiting has ALWAYS relied on the State of Virginia, specifically the Tidewater. UNC had trouble filling Kenan from the time the expanded to 63K. Duke can't fill an empty boot. VT would fill both Wallace Wade and Kenan. It was UNC's and Duke's ptb behind the scenes that allowed UVa to be strong-armed by the Va Governor.

The decision to put VT and GT into a football division with UNC, Duke, and UVa had been made before the vote to admit Miami and VT. It's that simple. UNC did not want to play football in a division with FSU because they could not beat FSU. The disposition of Clemson was not a factor. UNC and Duke didn't want MD in their division because MD's football traveling base had declined.

These were football revenue driven divisions by the ptb at UNC, Duke, and UVa.

NC State's and Clemson's relationship with MD and football was better. MD and Clemson could tick off a trip to Va, by rolling through Va to DC. As long and MD was in the Atlantic, recruiting areas were not horribly unbalanced.

When MD left, UNC, Duke, and UVa did not want to add Louisville so they were chucked into MD's spot instead of moving Pitt to the Atlantic.

Knowing that the underlying alignment was unfair in the long term, UNC, Duke, and UVa made sure that the divisions were written into the Constitution and ByLaws.

What GT, VT, Pitt, Miami, Syracuse, or FSU wanted did not count for **** it was about what the Blue 3 could do through Swofford.


That's the story of divisions in the ACC. No one in the Coastal gets anything by a switch - that's how sweet a deal the Coastal is.

Absent growing to 15 or 18 and splitting into 3 divisions, the only thing that can pass is divisionless play which is okay with everyone in the Coastal as far as I know with the execption of Pitt. Didn't have and don't have any insights there.

Great history, and as usual with the ACC the blame lies with UNC, UVA & Duke. Maryland was right, I long for a day when Florida State is no longer in a conference with them.

How about the other 11 vote them out or leave?