(05-03-2021 04:31 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

I have not researched this, but I am really surprised you have already forgotten about a 3rd baseman who started Rice in the fall of 2007 and was a highly successful college player, and has forged an excellent career in MLB. He was expected to go in round 7 or so out of Lamar HS in Houston, but dropped because of signability concerns and did not sign with the Braves, that year, opting to honor his commitment.

Didn't forget about Ant. And I'm not sure about him being expected to go in Round 7. He was not a Top 100 prospect, and ended up not being drafted at all. He tried out with the Braves, but they foolishly low-balled him on their offer (to our HUGE benefit).

Correction: The Braves did, in fact, draft Ant in the 27th round-- he dropped because of his then size and perceived bonus demands.

I wonder if he will go to the game where Rice visits UT or just watch it on the Longhorn network.

It was time for WG to stop being the baseball coach but he should have been put in a different post at Rice. Bragga was a mistake from the beginning because he was not going to be able to recruit here very well and he fouled the nest with his decommits.

(05-03-2021 10:35 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 10:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What I think Wayne should have gotten in the first place: A one-year sunset cruise with his successor onboard as an assistant, then move up to AD.

What it would take to get him back on campus now in any capacity including visitor: At least firing JK, not sure even that would be enough.

The departure of JK and the hiring of Hallmark would almost certainly due the trick. I think he and Tanya would continue to live in Austin, but they'd definitely visit Reckling and would probably finally accept a proper sendoff ceremony in his honor.

It would be a big mistake to bring Wayne Graham back in any capacity at this point. What's done is done. Make amends with him in whatever way you wish, but leave him in the past. It's time for Rice to look to the future, and Wayne Graham is not the future.

(05-03-2021 10:23 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  I like the idea and moving on from Bragga seems plausible at this point, but JK has done enough with the non-revenue sports, especially all the women programs, that I don't think he gets axed anytime soon.

I am an attorney. This is kind of like me doing a good job of calling clients at the beginning of a lawsuit and filing an answer and then doing no discovery, not engaging in any motion practice, and failing to prepare for trial. Being really good at the least important parts of your job does not make you good at your job!

To be fair, I am less harsh on JK then many around here. I think he has been fine, but Rice needs someone with transformational leadership and that hasn't been JK. Better than Greenspan and not as good as Del Conte.

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

(05-04-2021 09:00 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 10:23 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  I like the idea and moving on from Bragga seems plausible at this point, but JK has done enough with the non-revenue sports, especially all the women programs, that I don't think he gets axed anytime soon.

I am an attorney. This is kind of like me doing a good job of calling clients at the beginning of a lawsuit and filing an answer and then doing no discovery, not engaging in any motion practice, and failing to prepare for trial. Being really good at the least important parts of your job does not make you good at your job!

To be fair, I am less harsh on JK then many around here. I think he has been fine, but Rice needs someone with transformational leadership and that hasn't been JK. Better than Greenspan and not as good as Del Conte.

Gotta disagree with you here, Bigs. As good a guy as Del Conte was, and he was a terrific salesman, he did nothing to fix the disfunction in the athletic department. Most of us have a high regard for CDC, but in actuality, what did he really do here at Rice? For all of JK's faults, he brought much needed discipline and state of the arts analytics to the department. He excels as an administrator.

(05-04-2021 09:06 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

This is accurate. Specific to pitchers, OG was particularly good at teaching specific aspects of breaking balls. He had an affinity for the knuckle-curve (more bite, less arc). Not many people were as good at Graham at teaching a difficult pitch to guys that never learned it in high school. He was a master at this side of the developmental portion of the game.

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  ... [WG] was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that.

Those early teams did not have a ton of MLB players, and a lot of really good players (like Berkman) were not heavily recruited studs, but were identified by Graham (and his staff of course). Graham also did a very good job of mining the local Juco ranks his first 10-15 years at Rice.

(05-04-2021 09:06 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

Kenny Baugh was drafted in the ... 70th round!!! out of high school. But he was drafted!

(05-04-2021 09:10 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:06 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

This is accurate. Specific to pitchers, OG was particularly good at teaching specific aspects of breaking balls. He had an affinity for the knuckle-curve (more bite, less arc). Not many people were as good at Graham at teaching a difficult pitch to guys that never learned it in high school. He was a master at this side of the developmental portion of the game.

Serious question-- did anyone throw the knuckle-curve after Townsend and Niemann (and I had always heard that it was Wade who taught his roomie the pitch)? Wayne demanded that to see action pitching at Rice you had to develop on off-speed pitch. He added the changeup to the arsenal of most of his pitchers, and a couple guys perfected it so much that it became their "out pitch" (Bell, Bramhall, Fox). Over his last 10 years at Rice, the signature pitch of Rice pitchers was the 12-6 hammer curve.

(05-04-2021 09:10 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:00 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 10:23 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  I like the idea and moving on from Bragga seems plausible at this point, but JK has done enough with the non-revenue sports, especially all the women programs, that I don't think he gets axed anytime soon.

I am an attorney. This is kind of like me doing a good job of calling clients at the beginning of a lawsuit and filing an answer and then doing no discovery, not engaging in any motion practice, and failing to prepare for trial. Being really good at the least important parts of your job does not make you good at your job!

To be fair, I am less harsh on JK then many around here. I think he has been fine, but Rice needs someone with transformational leadership and that hasn't been JK. Better than Greenspan and not as good as Del Conte.

Gotta disagree with you here, Bigs. As good a guy as Del Conte was, and he was a terrific salesman, he did nothing to fix the disfunction in the athletic department. Most of us have a high regard for CDC, but in actuality, what did he really do here at Rice? For all of JK's faults, he brought much needed discipline and state of the arts analytics to the department. He excels as an administrator.

You are certainly more knowledge than me, as I have never been close to any of the athletic directors, departments, or coaching staffs. That said, there was much less available on the analytics and technology side when Del Conte was at Rice (2006-2009) so that is a tough comparison to make.

I'm not really relying my own assessment when expressing my admittedly low-information opinion. I look at Del Conte and see a guy who was hired away from Rice after 3 years and moved on to TCU and now UT. JK has been here more than 7 years, has anyone come a knockin'?

(05-04-2021 09:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:10 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:06 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

This is accurate. Specific to pitchers, OG was particularly good at teaching specific aspects of breaking balls. He had an affinity for the knuckle-curve (more bite, less arc). Not many people were as good at Graham at teaching a difficult pitch to guys that never learned it in high school. He was a master at this side of the developmental portion of the game.

Serious question-- did anyone throw the knuckle-curve after Townsend and Niemann (and I had always heard that it was Wade who taught his roomie the pitch)? Wayne demanded that to see action pitching at Rice you had to develop on off-speed pitch. He added the changeup to the arsenal of most of his pitchers, and a couple guys perfected it so much that it became their "out pitch" (Bell, Bramhall, Fox). Over his last 10 years at Rice, the signature pitch of Rice pitchers was the 12-6 hammer curve.

Honestly I don't know specifically who taught who what but....amongst college pitching evaluators, the general thought was that WG was probably the best they'd seen when it came to teaching the knuckle-curve. Its not a common pitch because its difficult to master and it CAN be seen by the batter on separation from glove to arm slot (you can see the raised knuckle).

BUT, Graham believed the upside (sharp, hammer like break) outweighed the downside (difficulty in mastering/possible pitch recognition).

His results speak for themselves. Pitchers who figured it out became really tough to hit in 2 strike situations.

(05-04-2021 09:17 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:10 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:06 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 03:53 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 12:19 PM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  While I am all for honoring the incredible career and record WG compiled while here (and he did remarkable things for the program and school), he was winning games because he was trotting out MLB players to stars in his line-ups, and those that were not at that level, were very fine, highly skilled baseball players. I am not sure what he could do with this current collection of scholarship athletes, and in light of the standard "well, he couldn't do worse", I am not so sure about that. His presence would also end any recruiting momentum (do we have any? I hear different sides of that) we have. No one is signing up their 17 year old to go play for a head coach that would be 86 next year and not likely to be around for that kid's entire career.

Very few are advocating he should come back to coach, and almost all of us agreed it was time to transition from him back in 2018. It was the embarrassing and disrespectful way it was handled that grates on people.

BTW, you're not giving Wayne his due as a developer of talent. Very, very few of his all-american and all-conference players over the years were elite prospects or were even drafted out of high school. Jose Cruz and Joe Savery were the two elite (Top 100) prospects. A number of others were drafted out of high school, but almost all of those were drafted in Round 20 or below. Up until his final few years at Rice, Wayne had a talent for finding the diamond in the rough, and then refining that diamond into a top MLB prospect. Glenn Otto was his last recruit that fit that mold.

For those who question Wayne's eye for talent and player development skills, particularly among pitchers, he took two undrafted position players (3B Cox, bullpen C Ditman) and turned them into elite closers. He took an undrafted Matt Anderson and turned him into the first selection in the MLB draft. Both Townsend and Niemann were undrafted out of high school. He took two undrafted pitchers who both struggled their first year at Rice (Duffy, Cingrani), tweeked their mechanics, and turned them into elite closers and solid major leaguers. Others who were undrafted and became all-americans or all-conference under Wayne include: Baugh, Aardsma, Tacker, Bell, Chargois, Wall, Lemond, Fox and Otto. Berkman was also undrafted out of high school.

This is accurate. Specific to pitchers, OG was particularly good at teaching specific aspects of breaking balls. He had an affinity for the knuckle-curve (more bite, less arc). Not many people were as good at Graham at teaching a difficult pitch to guys that never learned it in high school. He was a master at this side of the developmental portion of the game.

Serious question-- did anyone throw the knuckle-curve after Townsend and Niemann (and I had always heard that it was Wade who taught his roomie the pitch)? Wayne demanded that to see action pitching at Rice you had to develop on off-speed pitch. He added the changeup to the arsenal of most of his pitchers, and a couple guys perfected it so much that it became their "out pitch" (Bell, Bramhall, Fox). Over his last 10 years at Rice, the signature pitch of Rice pitchers was the 12-6 hammer curve.

There were a few the last few years that WG taught the knuckle curve or spike curve as some call it. I believe Otto, Myers, Esquivel, Gayle possibly Duplantier and a few others were taught this pitch by WG in the more recent past. I recall a game against TCU years ago where the announcers specifically mentioned this pitch and how it was a WG staple to those he could teach to throw it. It's a great pitch BTW.

(05-04-2021 09:10 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-04-2021 09:00 AM)mrbig Wrote:  

(05-03-2021 10:23 AM)Buho00 Wrote:  I like the idea and moving on from Bragga seems plausible at this point, but JK has done enough with the non-revenue sports, especially all the women programs, that I don't think he gets axed anytime soon.

I am an attorney. This is kind of like me doing a good job of calling clients at the beginning of a lawsuit and filing an answer and then doing no discovery, not engaging in any motion practice, and failing to prepare for trial. Being really good at the least important parts of your job does not make you good at your job!
To be fair, I am less harsh on JK then many around here. I think he has been fine, but Rice needs someone with transformational leadership and that hasn't been JK. Better than Greenspan and not as good as Del Conte.

Gotta disagree with you here, Bigs. As good a guy as Del Conte was, and he was a terrific salesman, he did nothing to fix the disfunction in the athletic department. Most of us have a high regard for CDC, but in actuality, what did he really do here at Rice? For all of JK's faults, he brought much needed discipline and state of the arts analytics to the department. He excels as an administrator.

And sucks as a visionary leader.

We had guys like that in the military. We called them paper shufflers. They excelled at keeping all their paperwork in order and getting all their reports in on time. So they got promoted to positions of leadership. Then a fight starts and they have no idea WTF to do. They lose battles and get their people killed, until they get replaced by warriors.

Be careful what you wish for.
Remember the idiot we had before JK. You would have to fire the President also.

(05-03-2021 12:29 PM)RiceFootball2K5 Wrote:  Should we put Wayne back in charge of the team? No. (Should we let Bragga keep running the team...no, but that's another issue).

Should we welcome Wayne back to campus with open arms to be honored? Yes.

Since that requires firing JK, do it. That's not even close to the only reason he should be fired, just one more reason thrown on top.

Get rid of JK and his Stanford crew ASAP. Send them packing and how much better things get.