(02-23-2021 10:06 PM)joeben69 Wrote:  

(02-23-2021 09:44 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(02-23-2021 09:26 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(02-23-2021 08:27 PM)joeben69 Wrote:  

(02-23-2021 02:38 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  Implications for the Summit are the most interesting part of this, imo. They were going to get to 10 members with St. Thomas next year, but they'll be straight back down to 9 if WIU leaves. Augie? CSBSJU? Northern Colorado? Seattle even? On the plus side, they're starting to look more institutionally cohesive.

it would seem that the Summit would morph into a North Central Conference (NCC) reunion of sorts...

SLC ===> NCC (D1 version)

UND ===> NCC (1921-2008)
USD ===> NCC (1921-2008)
NDSU ===> NCC (1921-2004)
SDSU ===> NCC (1921-2004)
UNO ===> NCC (1934-1946, 1976-2008)
UST ===> NCC (1921-1928)

if Augie & Northern CO ===> Summit
Augustana ===> NCC (1941-2008)
UNC ===> NCC (1978-2003)

CSBSJU = D3...doubt the Summit would go for another D3 ===> D1 exemption...
Seattle...doubt that SU would leave the WAC for the Summit...

Yeah, fans of the Dakota schools gripe about the similarities. They moved up to D1 to get out of the NCC, only to end up back in it.

I think there is a real possibility for Seattle to move. On their website, they list both Denver and St. Thomas as peer institutions, while listing none of the WAC schools as peer institutions. Plus, it's probably easier to fly to most of the Summit schools than the WAC schools, especially after WIU leaves.

Seattle to the Summit is DOA. With WIU leaving and the AAC looking to go West, the Summit would be a great fit for AFA Olympics.

So if...
Augustana ===> Summit
UNC ===> Summit
AFA ===> Summit
then...
AFA (football) ===> MWC
AFA (non-fb) ===> Summit

Summit Football (2025)
UND
USD
NDSU
SDSU
UST ([2025] after D3=>D1 transition)
Augustana ([2025] after D2=>D1 transition)
UNC

Why would Air Force want to leave the MWC for it's Olympic sports? If anything like this happens and I'm the MWC commissioner I'm on the phone to try to replace AF football with NMSU. Sell it as a way to kill WAC FBS before it restarts. You state all sports membership and see if it's worth keeping Hawaii as a full member or worth it to bring NAU or SUU up from Big Sky. NAU to the West with California and Nevada schools or if SUU then shift Boise State to the West in all sports. You either have 2 hard football teams in a division of 1 in each but pick up another basketball school. You trade saving money on travel to Hawaii from the negative of no week zero exemption.

I'm sure Boise would be at least happy with 2 california games every other year.the loss of Air Force could potentially be picked up by the additional quantity of basketball games.

(02-23-2021 11:04 PM)46566 Wrote:  Why would Air Force want to leave the MWC for it's Olympic sports? If anything like this happens and I'm the MWC commissioner I'm on the phone to try to replace AF football with NMSU. Sell it as a way to kill WAC FBS before it restarts. You state all sports membership and see if it's worth keeping Hawaii as a full member or worth it to bring NAU or SUU up from Big Sky. NAU to the West with California and Nevada schools or if SUU then shift Boise State to the West in all sports. You either have 2 hard football teams in a division of 1 in each but pick up another basketball school. You trade saving money on travel to Hawaii from the negative of no week zero exemption.

I'm sure Boise would be at least happy with 2 california games every other year.the loss of Air Force could potentially be picked up by the additional quantity of basketball games.

The original idea was AFA to the AAC for football, Summit for Olympics.

(02-23-2021 09:26 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  I think there is a real possibility for Seattle to move. On their website, they list both Denver and St. Thomas as peer institutions, while listing none of the WAC schools as peer institutions. Plus, it's probably easier to fly to most of the Summit schools than the WAC schools, especially after WIU leaves.

I highly doubt that given that most of the WAC is located near a large metro area. The WAC TX adds reduces their travel even more and keeps most of it on the west coast.

(02-23-2021 11:17 PM)OhioBoilermaker Wrote:  

(02-23-2021 11:04 PM)46566 Wrote:  Why would Air Force want to leave the MWC for it's Olympic sports? If anything like this happens and I'm the MWC commissioner I'm on the phone to try to replace AF football with NMSU. Sell it as a way to kill WAC FBS before it restarts. You state all sports membership and see if it's worth keeping Hawaii as a full member or worth it to bring NAU or SUU up from Big Sky. NAU to the West with California and Nevada schools or if SUU then shift Boise State to the West in all sports. You either have 2 hard football teams in a division of 1 in each but pick up another basketball school. You trade saving money on travel to Hawaii from the negative of no week zero exemption.

I'm sure Boise would be at least happy with 2 california games every other year.the loss of Air Force could potentially be picked up by the additional quantity of basketball games.

The original idea was AFA to the AAC for football, Summit for Olympics.

Honestly that might be a better fit as I would think Navy would play in the same Division. Though I'm under the assumption that the AAC loses someone. A Air Force add could be to keep Navy happy. I'm under the assumption that Boise State doesn't get added due to the AAC learning it's lesson about having a heavy olympic sports only membership. Air Force takes Boises spot.

If West Texas A&M's ad is correct that the large D2 public schools who are not happy with the D2 leadership and are ready to make a jump to D1? You have the large schools in Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas and Colorado that could make the jump from D2 to D1. I could see the Summit to go after the Minnesota schools and maybe Fort Hays State and Washburn in Kansas to fill in spots. Central Oklahoma and NE Oklahioma State will also fit.

(02-22-2021 11:33 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 11:28 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 10:47 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 10:38 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  WIU seems easy pickings here to be in a conference with EIU and SIU-E.

What about Northern Kentucky to the OVC? Would they find it more appealing than the Horizon?

Bad blood between NKU and OVC from 2011. NKU thought they were getting in then was denied for “competitive imbalance” or something similarly absurd.

Also the Horizon fits NKU’s urban/suburban profile better and is a better fit geographically.

WIU will be #11 because they need a FB school. They’ll gun for Bellarmine and Lipscomb, but those two probably decline. If that’s the case, #12 will be USI — new arena, city hosts OVC Tournament.

10 years is quite a while from the NKU/OVC rejection. With Murray State in there I'm sure that has to be some interest to at least listen.

Horizon is downright terrible these days and looks more like the Mid Continent than the old Midwest Collegiate, the one that once had Xavier and Notre Dame as members.

But the OVC is terrible too. If you’re picking between two terrible conferences, pick the one that fits better institutionally (urban), academically, & geographically.

OVC has quite a few football-focused rural schools which doesn’t appeal to NKU.

The only schools that may be focused on football are APSU, and possibly SEMO... that part of the reason JSU and EKU left...

(02-24-2021 03:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  If West Texas A&M's ad is correct that the large D2 public schools who are not happy with the D2 leadership and are ready to make a jump to D1? You have the large schools in Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas and Colorado that could make the jump from D2 to D1. I could see the Summit to go after the Minnesota schools and maybe Fort Hays State and Washburn in Kansas to fill in spots. Central Oklahoma and NE Oklahioma State will also fit.

Jumping to D1 for most D2 schools is an ego move only. Financially, it usually results in taking a bath.

(02-24-2021 09:50 AM)lion1983 Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 11:33 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 11:28 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 10:47 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(02-22-2021 10:38 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  WIU seems easy pickings here to be in a conference with EIU and SIU-E.

What about Northern Kentucky to the OVC? Would they find it more appealing than the Horizon?

Bad blood between NKU and OVC from 2011. NKU thought they were getting in then was denied for “competitive imbalance” or something similarly absurd.

Also the Horizon fits NKU’s urban/suburban profile better and is a better fit geographically.

WIU will be #11 because they need a FB school. They’ll gun for Bellarmine and Lipscomb, but those two probably decline. If that’s the case, #12 will be USI — new arena, city hosts OVC Tournament.

10 years is quite a while from the NKU/OVC rejection. With Murray State in there I'm sure that has to be some interest to at least listen.

Horizon is downright terrible these days and looks more like the Mid Continent than the old Midwest Collegiate, the one that once had Xavier and Notre Dame as members.

But the OVC is terrible too. If you’re picking between two terrible conferences, pick the one that fits better institutionally (urban), academically, & geographically.

OVC has quite a few football-focused rural schools which doesn’t appeal to NKU.

The only schools that may be focused on football are APSU, and possibly SEMO... that part of the reason JSU and EKU left...

Those two are just 1/3 of the football-first OVC schools. EIU, TSU, UTM, & TT are football-centric schools culturally. They don’t have the success/money/fan base of JSU/EKU, but they historically prioritize football over basketball in budget and fan support.

Are there any other realistic football schools the OVC could add outside of WIU? Even D2 looks pretty bare.

Robert Morris just joined the Horizon and would really stretch the footprint so I don't consider them realistic.

Perhaps if by some miracle they could convince Youngstown State to join in, the two could be packaged together, but that's a very big stretch.

(02-24-2021 10:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 03:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  If West Texas A&M's ad is correct that the large D2 public schools who are not happy with the D2 leadership and are ready to make a jump to D1? You have the large schools in Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas and Colorado that could make the jump from D2 to D1. I could see the Summit to go after the Minnesota schools and maybe Fort Hays State and Washburn in Kansas to fill in spots. Central Oklahoma and NE Oklahioma State will also fit.

Jumping to D1 for most D2 schools is an ego move only. Financially, it usually results in taking a bath.

Yeah... of these, the only one the I could see mutual benefit with, between the summit and the potential school, is Minnesota State (Mankato).

They have enrollment of over ten thousand and are a perfect geographic fit, as they are almost half way between the Twin Cities (St. Thomas) and Sioux Falls (Summit Headquarters/Basketball tourney location).

They also have a strong athletics tradition and have a shared history with pretty much all summit schools. They have a D1 basketball arena as well, and they are in a different system than the U of M.

Only issue is probably football. Mankato has a huge football tradition, and I doubt they could afford to move their highly successful football and hockey teams up to D1. I doubt the MVFC football schools would want to the extra recruiting competition in MN either. It's a great fit though.. just dont see it happening. That's the only move up that most summit schools would prob be happy with, other than maybe St. Johns (prob would be a love/hate add), but it would have to be Pioneer Football only.

If WIU and Oral Roberts left, adding Mankato and St. Johns would be huge, IMO. We would see some amazing rivalries and fan interest. Football at both schools would have to be non scholly or dropped. If non scholly, there would be a decent little pod with St. Johns, St. Thomas, Mankato, and Drake. I don't see Mankato ever going non scholly though, but could be wrong.

This isn't a prediction of what will happen - I highly doubt it does, but there would be some great synergies between all of these schools. Per capita/alumn, St. Johns probably has the best alumni support of almost any school in the country, and the St. Thomas/St. Johns rivalry would be awesome to see at the D1 level.

I hadn’t put much stock in Youngstown St as an OVC candidate but for football only it could be a move that gets the Penguins back in the playoff more often without NDSU and SDSU in their conference.

Travel for Youngstown St would be about the same, if not better than in the MVFC.

(02-24-2021 12:47 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 10:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 03:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  If West Texas A&M's ad is correct that the large D2 public schools who are not happy with the D2 leadership and are ready to make a jump to D1? You have the large schools in Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas and Colorado that could make the jump from D2 to D1. I could see the Summit to go after the Minnesota schools and maybe Fort Hays State and Washburn in Kansas to fill in spots. Central Oklahoma and NE Oklahioma State will also fit.

Jumping to D1 for most D2 schools is an ego move only. Financially, it usually results in taking a bath.

Yeah... of these, the only one the I could see mutual benefit with, between the summit and the potential school, is Minnesota State (Mankato).

They have enrollment of over ten thousand and are a perfect geographic fit, as they are almost half way between the Twin Cities (St. Thomas) and Sioux Falls (Summit Headquarters/Basketball tourney location).

They also have a strong athletics tradition and have a shared history with pretty much all summit schools. They have a D1 basketball arena as well, and they are in a different system than the U of M.

Only issue is probably football. Mankato has a huge football tradition, and I doubt they could afford to move their highly successful football and hockey teams up to D1. I doubt the MVFC football schools would want to the extra recruiting competition in MN either. It's a great fit though.. just dont see it happening. That's the only move up that most summit schools would prob be happy with, other than maybe St. Johns (prob would be a love/hate add), but it would have to be Pioneer Football only.

...but they do have legendary coach, Hayden Fox, available as an advisor.

(02-24-2021 12:47 PM)nodak651 Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 10:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 03:35 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  If West Texas A&M's ad is correct that the large D2 public schools who are not happy with the D2 leadership and are ready to make a jump to D1? You have the large schools in Minnesota, Missouri, Kansas and Colorado that could make the jump from D2 to D1. I could see the Summit to go after the Minnesota schools and maybe Fort Hays State and Washburn in Kansas to fill in spots. Central Oklahoma and NE Oklahioma State will also fit.

Jumping to D1 for most D2 schools is an ego move only. Financially, it usually results in taking a bath.

Yeah... of these, the only one the I could see mutual benefit with, between the summit and the potential school, is Minnesota State (Mankato).

They have enrollment of over ten thousand and are a perfect geographic fit, as they are almost half way between the Twin Cities (St. Thomas) and Sioux Falls (Summit Headquarters/Basketball tourney location).

They also have a strong athletics tradition and have a shared history with pretty much all summit schools. They have a D1 basketball arena as well, and they are in a different system than the U of M.

Only issue is probably football. Mankato has a huge football tradition, and I doubt they could afford to move their highly successful football and hockey teams up to D1. I doubt the MVFC football schools would want to the extra recruiting competition in MN either. It's a great fit though.. just dont see it happening. That's the only move up that most summit schools would prob be happy with, other than maybe St. Johns (prob would be a love/hate add), but it would have to be Pioneer Football only.

If WIU and Oral Roberts left, adding Mankato and St. Johns would be huge, IMO. We would see some amazing rivalries and fan interest. Football at both schools would have to be non scholly or dropped. If non scholly, there would be a decent little pod with St. Johns, St. Thomas, Mankato, and Drake. I don't see Mankato ever going non scholly though, but could be wrong.

This isn't a prediction of what will happen - I highly doubt it does, but there would be some great synergies between all of these schools. Per capita/alumn, St. Johns probably has the best alumni support of almost any school in the country, and the St. Thomas/St. Johns rivalry would be awesome to see at the D1 level.

I also see Summit schools preferring Minnesota St over Augustana. Minnesota St just has synergy with the Summit profile -- UND/NDSU/USD/SDSU -- and allows the league to doubledip in Minnesota.

I've never heard of any Minnesota St-to-D1 noise though so I'm not sure what the situation is there.

Reviving the Tommies/Johnnies rivalry at D1 would be cool too.

(02-24-2021 11:42 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Are there any other realistic football schools the OVC could add outside of WIU? Even D2 looks pretty bare.

Robert Morris just joined the Horizon and would really stretch the footprint so I don't consider them realistic.

Perhaps if by some miracle they could convince Youngstown State to join in, the two could be packaged together, but that's a very big stretch.

Maybe Lindenwood, Arkansas Tech, UAH, or North Georgia? I dunno their interest level or if one of them is destined for the ASUN. Tennessee, Kentucky, and Illinois are pretty picked over. University of Indianapolis (private school, not IUPUI) could be interesting as a non-football school.

If the Summit gets a 6th football school they may well sponsor the sport, as they will have an AQ and it adds another men's team sports, a little more safety margin.

....

We have drifted pretty far away from the OVC. It seems to be built on the premise the Western Illinois would automatically bolt the MVFC and Summit in favor of the Tennessee heavy OVC. I don't see that as likely, it would be viewed as a step down for football.

Possible Summit League targets which could also mean football.
Northern Colorado
Metro State 20,192
Colorado-Colorado Springs 12,753
Colorado Mesa 11,000
Colorado Christian 8406
Regis 8368

Fort Hays State 15, 908
Washburn in Topeka 6285
Pittsburg State 6645

Minnesota State-Mankato 17,357
St. Cloud State 16,326
Minn.-Duluth 10,858

Central Missouri 11,229
NW Missouri State 7104
Missouri Western 5413 (should merge the athletics departments with UMKC)

Montana State-Billings

Nebraska-Kearney over 10,000

Central Oklahoma 10,910
NE Oklahoma State 8548

Augustana 2080


OVC/Horizon lineup.
Belmont/Bellarmine/Lipscomb/Southern Indiana/UMSL/Illinois Springfield/Lewis/Ashland/Lee U. all could go to Horizon.

OVC gets:
Youngstown State
Indianapolis
Wayne State Michigan
Grand Valley State
Ferris State
Missouri S&T
Lindenwood
Ashland football or they could go Pioneer with it.
West Chester
Indiana, PA.
Bloomsburg
Robert Morris
Green Bay or Miluakee if they add football or both.

Bowie State at 6171 is the only HBCU that is over 6000 in the nothern footprint for MEAC now. I wonder if Bowie State and UMES should merge their athletic departments since they both are competeing for the same athletes near each other?

(02-24-2021 03:26 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  If the Summit gets a 6th football school they may well sponsor the sport, as they will have an AQ and it adds another men's team sports, a little more safety margin.

....

We have drifted pretty far away from the OVC. It seems to be built on the premise the Western Illinois would automatically bolt the MVFC and Summit in favor of the Tennessee heavy OVC. I don't see that as likely, it would be viewed as a step down for football.

WIU would be the exception to the rule that football drives the bus.

Moving into a regional conference as opposed to being the Eastern outlier in a Dakota centric conference, would be a hard opportunity to pass up.

While I'm sure they would prefer to stay in the MVFC, the savings the OVC would provide them would outweigh the cost of the downgrade in FCS conference prestige

If I were OVC I would take WIU and Lipscomb right now and push for Robert Morris to join for football only.

Then would put you back at 9 for football while consolidating the core footprint of the conference (Tennesse)

(02-24-2021 03:26 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  If the Summit gets a 6th football school they may well sponsor the sport, as they will have an AQ and it adds another men's team sports, a little more safety margin.

....

We have drifted pretty far away from the OVC. It seems to be built on the premise the Western Illinois would automatically bolt the MVFC and Summit in favor of the Tennessee heavy OVC. I don't see that as likely, it would be viewed as a step down for football.

It is a step down in football—pretty much any MVFC to other FCS move is a downgrade.

What it would be is a cash saver for Olympic sports as they’d shrink their travel budget by having many more drivable road games.

(02-24-2021 01:00 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I hadn’t put much stock in Youngstown St as an OVC candidate but for football only it could be a move that gets the Penguins back in the playoff more often without NDSU and SDSU in their conference.

Travel for Youngstown St would be about the same, if not better than in the MVFC.

I don't see Youngstown St. leaving the MVFC but I would go ahead and try to plant the seeds while snagging the much more obtainable Robert Morris for that 9th football slot

IMO YSU and RMU are too far of a footprint stretch. YSU was already a member from 1981-88 and that did not last. Also EKU will be gone as one of their closer travel points. OVC is fading and would be a lateral move at best for anyone. They may still lose Austin Peay.

Only two possibles:

1.) Western Illinois University

2.) Morehead State-- convince them to return to FCS from non-scholly Pioneer- doubtful

Still--- they are OK. Current- Seven members. Add WIU to get Eight in football. Even if they lost one more would still then be at Seven (one above the six team minimum).