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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: New Arts building
(09-10-2020 01:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 05:15 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  Hillsdale is so far out of the mainstream, that it's just about in Bob Jones University territory.

From what I can see of the mainstream, I'm not comfortable with either Bob Jones or the mainstream.

Quote:It currently ranks #2314 in racial diversity (I don't think that the rankings go much lower).

With a little digging, I found the source of that ranking. Thank you for not providing a link. If you look at the underlying data, they have no racial data on Hillsdale. Zero data obviously equal a low score (100% ethnicity unknown). The same page says overall diversity is good. Geograpic, gender, and overall are good. And there are 2700-odd listed, so there are about 400 lower.

The way to hide lack of racial diversity is to not report any figures.

But, after looking at the university's website, one doesn't need to be Lieutenant Columbo to deduce the likely racial breakdown of the student body.
09-10-2020 12:23 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: New Arts building
I know nothing of this college so perhaps I'm way off base....

But according to wiki
The college was founded in 1844 by abolitionists. Their charter prohibits any discrimination based on race, religion, or sex, and the college has been credited as the first American college to prohibit this type of discrimination in a charter. They refused to play in the 1956 Tangerine Bowl when the bowl would not allow the team's black players to join the white players on the field. they were also only the second school in the nation to admit women on an equality with men, and graduated the first woman in Michigan with a college degree in 1851.

According to USNWR, they are 52% male and 48% female, but race is not reported. The percentage of 'whites' is also 0%.

That said, there are only two men and no women who appear to be black on the basketball teams and the county where they are is 98% white. They clearly are not especially diverse, though obviously they let minorities in and not simply to win at basketball. Tavon Brown is a 6'8 200lb Sophomore who went to St Charles Prep and redshirted as a freshman. Jacob Ngobi is a 5'11 190 lb Jr who appeared in 7 games and his 'claim to fame' is that he hit a 3 pointer against Oakland City (Nov 9) for his first career points. I don't say that to point out anything other than it doesn't appear that these two were admitted for their athletic abilities.

In football, there are lots of missing pictures but only one showing anyone who appears to be African American... though may not be. He was first team all conference at both TE and DL in high school... and led the DL in tackles, TFL and sacks... so perhaps he was admitted for his athletic prowess, until you also see that he was an NHS member and 4 time recipient of Academic High Honors.

I'd also note that Republicans have carried the county in 32 of 34 elections since 1884. While certainly they COULD be racists, they've been consistent in supporting racial equality since their founding. There isn't even a place on their application to list 'race'.

The only real complaint I see is that they declined affirmative action, preferring instead to remain true to their charter and admit people based on academics without regard to race. One can assume that they did this to keep black people out, or one can read in their charter as well as their actions since then that seem to indicate otherwise. Being truly blind to race... judging people by the quality of their character rather than the color of their skin certainly seems to fit with what I refer to as 'true' Republicans, regardless of what current party or faction that puts someone in... and their founding (and my upbringing, though I'd never heard of 'free will Baptists') and the civil rights movement of the 1960s as opposed to what that has become...

Hillsdale seems more to me like what HBCs are today where discrimination is not allowed, but there is a strong tendency for 'one race' to attend that school for a variety of reasons. Said more directly... I am 100% convinced that the Free Will Baptists didn't put the idea that they would look at academics alone and not race in their charter in order to keep black people out of their all-white school. They instead would have done what Rice and lots of other places did if that was their goal. Since then, the world has changed around them, but they have not changed... and they STILL are not discriminatory, even if the public education system upon which they rely to generate that academic preparation is.
09-10-2020 12:33 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: New Arts building
(09-10-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The way to hide lack of racial diversity is to not report any figures.

Wow...

So let me get this straight....
My school specifically denied admission to blacks in their charter, drafted well after the end of slavery. Their school specifically ruled such things out, before slavery was even abolished.

My school didn't start allowing minorities until we started losing bowl bids. Theirs gave up bowl bids 8 years earlier because they wouldn't let minorities play in them.

My school today still gets a lot of its ethnic diversity through sports, sometimes specifically because of sports. Their school seems to admit people regardless of their race based on academics, and some of them are minorities and a few of those minorities like to play sports.

Eliminate athletics at Rice and what does our racial diversity look like? It may not be theirs, but its hardly 'good'.

I just find it odd that you assume that they are doing this to hide something, when it seems clear that they've been consistent (and on the correct side of the issue) from day 1 (in the 1840's).
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2020 12:58 PM by Hambone10.)
09-10-2020 12:56 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #84
RE: New Arts building
(09-10-2020 12:56 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-10-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The way to hide lack of racial diversity is to not report any figures.

Wow...

So let me get this straight....
My school specifically denied admission to blacks in their charter, drafted well after the end of slavery. Their school specifically ruled such things out, before slavery was even abolished.

My school didn't start allowing minorities until we started losing bowl bids. Theirs gave up bowl bids 8 years earlier because they wouldn't let minorities play in them.

My school today still gets a lot of its ethnic diversity through sports, sometimes specifically because of sports. Their school seems to admit people regardless of their race based on academics, and some of them are minorities and a few of those minorities like to play sports.

Eliminate athletics at Rice and what does our racial diversity look like? It may not be theirs, but its hardly 'good'.

I just find it odd that you assume that they are doing this to hide something, when it seems clear that they've been consistent (and on the correct side of the issue) from day 1 (in the 1840's).

I question that logic (see bold above), Bones. ALL schools pad their diversity numbers through sports; Rice is hardly alone in that regard....and, yet, we have ranked #1 in diversity by Princeton for several consecutive years now.
09-10-2020 03:36 PM
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75src Offline
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Post: #85
RE: New Arts building
Maybe we could get diverse scholars instead of athletes.

(09-10-2020 03:36 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(09-10-2020 12:56 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-10-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The way to hide lack of racial diversity is to not report any figures.

Wow...

So let me get this straight....
My school specifically denied admission to blacks in their charter, drafted well after the end of slavery. Their school specifically ruled such things out, before slavery was even abolished.

My school didn't start allowing minorities until we started losing bowl bids. Theirs gave up bowl bids 8 years earlier because they wouldn't let minorities play in them.

My school today still gets a lot of its ethnic diversity through sports, sometimes specifically because of sports. Their school seems to admit people regardless of their race based on academics, and some of them are minorities and a few of those minorities like to play sports.

Eliminate athletics at Rice and what does our racial diversity look like? It may not be theirs, but its hardly 'good'.

I just find it odd that you assume that they are doing this to hide something, when it seems clear that they've been consistent (and on the correct side of the issue) from day 1 (in the 1840's).

I question that logic (see bold above), Bones. ALL schools pad their diversity numbers through sports; Rice is hardly alone in that regard....and, yet, we have ranked #1 in diversity by Princeton for several consecutive years now.
09-10-2020 05:24 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #86
RE: New Arts building
(09-10-2020 12:56 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I just find it odd that you assume that they are doing this to hide something, when it seems clear that they've been consistent (and on the correct side of the issue) from day 1 (in the 1840's).

I don't think there's any attempt to hide anything. The data regarding racial breakdown typically come from federal compilations of statistics which universities who receive federal funds are required to report. Hillsdale accepts no federal funds, and therefore does not file such reports.

I must take exception to trying to overemphasize one point for which you have no actual data and which was not the point of my comment. Hillsdale is a staunch defender of free market capitalism (George Mason is another) and their curriculum is set up to require all students, regardless of major, to obtain an education in the classics, history, and basic sciences. Those are the two--and the only two--points I am making about wishing Rice to be more like Hillsdale. Going off on a race baiting rabbit trail, when there is no evidence to support that and considerable evidence to refute it, seems to me to be out of bounds.
09-10-2020 05:40 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: New Arts building
(09-10-2020 03:36 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(09-10-2020 12:56 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(09-10-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The way to hide lack of racial diversity is to not report any figures.

Wow...

So let me get this straight....
My school specifically denied admission to blacks in their charter, drafted well after the end of slavery. Their school specifically ruled such things out, before slavery was even abolished.

My school didn't start allowing minorities until we started losing bowl bids. Theirs gave up bowl bids 8 years earlier because they wouldn't let minorities play in them.

My school today still gets a lot of its ethnic diversity through sports, sometimes specifically because of sports. Their school seems to admit people regardless of their race based on academics, and some of them are minorities and a few of those minorities like to play sports.

Eliminate athletics at Rice and what does our racial diversity look like? It may not be theirs, but its hardly 'good'.

I just find it odd that you assume that they are doing this to hide something, when it seems clear that they've been consistent (and on the correct side of the issue) from day 1 (in the 1840's).

I question that logic (see bold above), Bones. ALL schools pad their diversity numbers through sports; Rice is hardly alone in that regard....and, yet, we have ranked #1 in diversity by Princeton for several consecutive years now.

You miss my point... sorry.

First let me point out that while we are hardly alone in padding our scores, Hillsdale may be alone in not doing so. They have quite frequently been alone on racial issues... and on the right side of this issue. That's what i was pointing out.

What I'm pointing out is that you seem to be okay with schools (like ours) who engaged in racism from the start and were late to the diversity game... but you seem to see something nefarious in a school that was founded on racial equality, has been in front of it throughout their history.

You also seem to be okay with schools that use athletics to pad their diversity numbers (which at our level can be somewhat exploitative) and take issue with schools that are transparent and ignore race.

Let me be clear what I mean there... A minority student from a disadvantaged background who happens to be great at athletics will get a full scholarship to play football at Rice... but if we were to admit that same guy just to be a student, he would also most likely ALSO get a full scholarship based on his disadvantaged background, and not have to 'work' a full-time job that he will likely pay for in terms of joints for the rest of his life. If we would have admitted that guy whether or not he played football, why don't we just do that and not to 'pad our diversity score'? That's what Hillsdale does. Remember, Rice has a high average SAT but that is a byproduct of admitting 'the whole person'. That's precisely what Hillsdale does... Without sports, would we?

I'm not casting shade on what we do... I'm simply comparing it to what (to someone who doesn't know this school and have just perused their website, read wiki and a few news stories) SEEMS to be a somewhat self-serving (for Rice) jump to a conclusion about their intentions.

Best I can tell, Hillsdale has been consistent in their practice of racial equality... and while affirmative action IS an attempt to correct previous societal wrongs... it would certainly seem hypocritical for a school with a 150+ year history of NOT engaging in the racism that the rest of society did, to suddenly engage in it to 'bail that society out'.

Yes, you CAN use athletics to pad your diversity scores... and Hillsdale could do that... I mean they obviously admit black students who AREN'T good at athletics... but they don't...

Yes, you CAN use 'not reporting racial data' to hide your lack of racial diversity... but it doesn't seem consistent with their long and sometimes unpopular history of racial inclusion.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2020 12:06 PM by Hambone10.)
09-11-2020 11:58 AM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #88
RE: New Arts building
The most recent number I could find shows that the average SAT among those accepted at Hillsdale was 1363. Looking at national figures from 2018, the average SAT for black students was 946, for Latinx 990, for whites 1123, and for Asians 1223.

Choosing to ignore all of the many non-academic factors that contribute to differences in test scores is a wonderful way to disguise racism among the university's board and among those who agree with that philosophy.
09-11-2020 12:23 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: New Arts building
WRC,

You can race bait all you want, but let me remind you that you are focusing on exactly not why I said good things about Hillsdale.

Let me repeat, they are staunch defenders of free market capitalism and their core curriculum for all majors requires a solid base in classics, history, and basic sciences. What do you have to say about those things?

I don't think either one of those things precludes any form of race, color, or gender diversity. Moreover, I don't think that achieving diversity but not those things is cause for praise.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2020 02:02 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-11-2020 12:27 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #90
RE: New Arts building
(09-11-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The most recent number I could find shows that the average SAT among those accepted at Hillsdale was 1363. Looking at national figures from 2018, the average SAT for black students was 946, for Latinx 990, for whites 1123, and for Asians 1223.
Choosing to ignore all of the many non-academic factors that contribute to differences in test scores is a wonderful way to disguise racism among the university's board and among those who agree with that philosophy.

Two questions:
What is the average SAT for Rice?
How does one pronounce the word "Latinx"?
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2020 12:31 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
09-11-2020 12:30 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: New Arts building
Does Hillsdale make the entire application blind? At a minimum, I assume they’re blanking our names on applications if they want to be completely free of potential racial biases.
09-11-2020 12:47 PM
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Post: #92
RE: New Arts building
This discussion has certainly turned into a far more detailed investigation of Hillsdale than I intended. And interestingly, as far as I can tell, nobody has commented on the two points that I made--support/defense of free market capitalism and broad core curriculum requirement.
09-11-2020 12:50 PM
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Post: #93
RE: New Arts building
I have learned a lot about Hillsdale that I didn't know before. It has raised my opinion of the school.
09-11-2020 12:57 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #94
RE: New Arts building
I have Hillsdale as a Facebook friend. I have the following message from them today.

"In these uncertain times, we need your input now more than ever. Is America at risk of becoming a socialist state?"

Can't imagine getting anything like that from Rice. My answer to the question, in case you haven't figured it out, is, "Yes."
09-11-2020 01:59 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #95
RE: New Arts building
(09-11-2020 01:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I have Hillsdale as a Facebook friend. I have the following message from them today.

"In these uncertain times, we need your input now more than ever. Is America at risk of becoming a socialist state?"

Can't imagine getting anything like that from Rice. My answer to the question, in case you haven't figured it out, is, "Yes."

I’m assuming that is a post of there’s.

Let’s compare that to Rice’s most recent posts:

Highlighting OpenStax, promoting recent research, and the announcement of the new materials science research center.

I think I’m good if Rice doesn’t become Hillsdale on the Bayou...
09-11-2020 03:29 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #96
RE: New Arts building
(09-11-2020 12:23 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  The most recent number I could find shows that the average SAT among those accepted at Hillsdale was 1363. Looking at national figures from 2018, the average SAT for black students was 946, for Latinx 990, for whites 1123, and for Asians 1223.

Choosing to ignore all of the many non-academic factors that contribute to differences in test scores is a wonderful way to disguise racism among the university's board and among those who agree with that philosophy.

Yes... in 1844, Abolitionists who refused to play in a bowl game 100 years later because they wouldn't allow their black players on the field... are secretly racists who somehow knew that 150 and 50 years later, their refusal to address race would come in handy. I mean, in 1844, Blacks had all the same rights and educational opportunities as whites, right? If all you wanted to do was admit white people, why bother with those events? Just be like Rice at the time (both times I might add) and only admit whites.

That's certainly possible, though it seems far less likely than the idea that they simply follow their charter which doesn't allow race to be used as a determinant. Rice had to sue to amend theirs.

By your statistics, they didn't admit anyone.


(09-11-2020 12:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Does Hillsdale make the entire application blind? At a minimum, I assume they’re blanking our names on applications if they want to be completely free of potential racial biases.

Although they accept the common app, which I'm sure includes race, I looked at their direct application, which asks for Citizenship and has a line for dual citizenship... but it doesn't ask for race.

If its just names... somehow a basketball player named Jacob Ngobi got admitted. He's a junior who is 1-3 in his career from the floor and 1-2 from the free throw line.
On the football team,
Jackie Robinson got admitted, though he's white as me.
Quentin Hernandez looks German.
Drew Ransom looks black. NHS, Class President, Team captain and 4.0 GPA through High School...
Austen Williams NHS, 4.0+ through High School. I'm betting they both did better than 946 on the SAT.

Women's track
Carmen Botha is a Sr G-MAC outdoor champ in the 400 hurdles.... from Africa. South Africa. White
Zalona Eby is black... Sr... claim to fame is 2018 freshman of the year. Her 60m time went from 7.76 to 8.15 and her 200m went from 24.67 to 26.56. Guess that 'exception' didn't pay off, huh?


And finally, rather than ask a bunch of white men from Rice, let's ask a black female alum of the school.
Tori Hope Petersen is a graduate of Hillsdale College and an advocate for foster youth, a graduate of the system herself. After a group of her fellow alumni circulated a letter demanding the school speak out on Black Lives Matter, Petersen pushed back, drafting and publishing a powerful letter on her experience as a black student at Hillsdale.

Dear Hillsdale College,

I was one of your “token black” students. The essays I wrote on my admissions application spoke about my newly found faith in Christ, experiences as a former foster youth, and adversities faced while growing up with a mentally ill mother. Though my ACT score was not just below your average, but the national average, you accepted me anyways. While other prestigious colleges might have seen me as a high risk statistic, you saw me as an individual with human dignity. I look at my acceptance letter and diploma as symbols of the institution seeking justice and equality for those who represent me, and that is: former foster youth, underprivileged, undereducated, pregnant student, white, black, woman, and person.

Along with my track scholarship, you offered me a grant designated to low-income students. I couldn’t have attended Hillsdale College without that grant, as I needed it to fill the financial gap many students’ parents generously cover. Additionally, since Hillsdale College refuses to accept any government funding, I no longer had to rely on the county agency or caseworkers for documentation or representation to receive financial aid. Hillsdale College’s stance and assistance freed me from the government system that oppressed me and stifled my voice, the system that still shackles young, vulnerable men and women of color. Because I no longer needed government funds, I didn’t have to report to the people who endorsed abuse and neglect I endured as a foster youth. This caused much of my anger and bitterness to shatter, which was a catalyst to the growth of my faith. This is a statement of stifling systematic oppression.

Since I graduated in 2018 the staff in institutional advancement and I have tirelessly worked together to form the Fostering the Good Scholarship, a scholarship for former foster youth, which are 23% African American, with hopes to continue to fill that gap and leave an imprint in the life of some of the most suffering young people in America. This is a statement of fulfilling the call to help those who have less, so they might someday have more.

During my senior year I attended a casual round table lunch with six other students and Dr. [Larry] Arnn. After I expressed my heart and dream to someday build up a home for those without parental figures, Dr. Arnn affirmed he wanted the same for myself and those children. He offered me an opportunity to visit a home for underprivileged youth that had been one of the most successful homes in the nation, and purchased plane tickets for me in less than twenty-four hours. This is a statement of believing in the less fortunate for the sake of the less fortunate.

The following semester I became pregnant out of wedlock. I felt some students were unkind and some Christians I admired for their faith failed to reflect Jesus when I announced the life of my child, but Hillsdale College’s deans and leadership rallied to support me, my then-boyfriend, and my pre-born, biracial baby. This is a statement of seeing all life as equal.

I, too, initially thought silence was violence. But over the weeks, I’ve realized that sometimes silence looks like paying for a plane ticket for a dream to be fulfilled, so broken lives might be healed. Sometimes silence looks like two years of working relentlessly to fund a scholarship for the vulnerable. Sometimes silence looks like not endorsing the system that oppresses the vulnerable for their own gain, by refusing even a penny. Sometimes silence looks like handing a diploma to a young woman who doubted they’d ever hold one.

I have never viewed Hillsdale College as silent. I still yearn to practice a virtue the college taught me and displayed in the midst of the most recent racial turmoil— prudence. Hillsdale College doesn’t have to be loud with their words, because they’re bold in their actions and consistent in their education, as they whisper “justice.”

Your forever thankful alumni,

Tori Petersen


I don't know what kind of athlete she was, but it looks like they have no problem admitting 'below average' students from disadvantaged backgrounds. They just apparently don't feel the need to wave it around like a flag of superiority.

Any sense of snarkiness here Lad is not at all intended for you...


here is the stated objective of their founders in 1844:
“to furnish all persons who wish, irrespective of nation, color, or sex, a literary, scientific, [and] theological education”

Here was ours, 50 years later and AFTER the civil war:
Rice's will specified the institution was to be "a competitive institution of the highest grade" and that only white students would be permitted to attend


Look (again, not directed at you Lad) I get that it is possible that this is all just some convenient and serendipitous ploy and that somehow, nobody who was around at any time while the school was turning down bowl bids to support African Americans nor anyone 'wronged' by these policies wants to sue their school for such a blatant violation of their charter.... but the vastly more simple and likely position is that 'irrespective of color' in their charter means just that... and that affirmative action, regardless of its intended purpose is a clear and direct violation of that charter.
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2020 04:23 PM by Hambone10.)
09-11-2020 03:47 PM
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Post: #97
RE: New Arts building
Interesting to hear people claim that not caring about race is somehow racist.
09-11-2020 03:57 PM
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Post: #98
RE: New Arts building
(09-11-2020 03:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-11-2020 01:59 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I have Hillsdale as a Facebook friend. I have the following message from them today.

"In these uncertain times, we need your input now more than ever. Is America at risk of becoming a socialist state?"

Can't imagine getting anything like that from Rice. My answer to the question, in case you haven't figured it out, is, "Yes."

I’m assuming that is a post of there’s.

Let’s compare that to Rice’s most recent posts:

Highlighting OpenStax, promoting recent research, and the announcement of the new materials science research center.

I think I’m good if Rice doesn’t become Hillsdale on the Bayou...

So you'd rather a school ignore what's going on in the world than one that asks a very direct and straightforward question? The answer to which could easily be 'no'?
09-11-2020 04:26 PM
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Post: #99
RE: New Arts building
Is there space on this forum for someone who think Rice has been overtaken by the most corrosive elements of the left wing over the past 10 years, yet, does not want to see the school become “Hillsdale on the Bayou?”
(This post was last modified: 09-11-2020 04:33 PM by ExcitedOwl18.)
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Post: #100
RE: New Arts building
(09-11-2020 03:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Interesting to hear people claim that not caring about race is somehow racist.

I don’t know that Hillsdale is racist. What I do know is that I do not share the enthusiasm for modeling Rice after school that is probably > 95% white not to mention the presumed lack of diversity of thought. No thank you.
09-11-2020 04:37 PM
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