summarizng last post=

beating up good teams, con or non con is proof you are good

beating up bad teams is the non con proves nothing

getting beating up in the non-con by trash team is proof you arent very good

very simple

(07-13-2020 09:33 PM)pesik Wrote:  

(07-13-2020 09:16 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  pesik what’s your take on UCF for this season? Top 5 AAC?

IF CJ Walker gets a waiver,ucf probably top 2 in the conference in bigs...
i love darin greens potential..any kind of freshman to soph bump would be huge...

first off its impossible to project right now becuase so many teams needs waiver.. but lets imagine everyone got waivers
ucf is a "potential" team to me, there is a lot of talent on ucf but the talent isnt proven besides collin smith,...
in the preseason i tend to lean towards experience over potential .. i wouldnt put ucf top 5...id lean towards cincy, memphis, usf and smu to round out the top 5...not becuase i think they are better but becuase they just have more proven players

ucf has the talent to win the whole league..but is cj walker going to live up to expectations...will be perry be more productive now that he isnt on a stacked team..is sean mobley up to the expectations some are putting on him..will darin green take that next step..
in comparison to usf i know what yetna does, i know what david collin does, i know what durr does etc...

ucf could be 3 or 8 next season and neither would surprise me

Fair enough, also depends on the incoming freshmen too, but we could potentially have Brandon Mahan and Florida’s Mr Basketball coming off the bench, that’s a pretty deep team. Any thoughts on our incoming recruits?

We'll like I said just posting what players did in the AAC eliminates all that minutia YOU are now trying to dig back up when that same stuff was meaningless for Gardner last year you even admitted you held him to a different standard. Conference, conference conference is all you ever said anytime he was mentioned.

AAC play is about as apples to apples SOS schedules as you get we dont have to try to compare SOS's because its about the same and cuts that $hit out. Apples to apples, it's not that the other is meaning less but the AAC is more important in comparing and makes it more simple to compare playing against the same teams.

It's a large 18 game sample that is significantly larger than the 13 OOC games anyway, and it's the most recent part of the schedule and relavant where we left players off at the end of the season entering next and can see obvious improvements.

Newton trajectory was nothing but straight up by the time he hit conference play he had clearly had improved a lot. That's worth noting alone regardless when a player takes off like that over the course of the season. He killed it in the AAC where everyone is playing the same type of schedule. Apples to apples. He played 31 minutes a game too as a big time option, it's not like he was doing this in a small sample 18 minutes a game off the bench.

You've yet to refute ANYTHING Newton did in those last 18 games, and his trajectory was even more insane the last ten games and where he ended up. No other players were on a trajectory anywhere close to that returning, most's individual seasons were going the opposite direction by that point. Newton and the guy Igbanu from Tulsa were about the only ones playing major roles getting better in conference play than out out of the entire league, and Newton was a freshman which is EXACTLY what you want to see. It was just a complete accent to the top of the league by the end of the year.

im not refuting anything he did in the conference....im just also including his non-con

why are you acting like 21 is the absolute worst..21 is high..a few teams of players below would not trade their players for newton

22 is david collins who has all conference awards
23 is alterique gilbert who carried a decent uconn his sophomore year after jalen adams got hurt
31 david dejulius wo was projected to be a starter at Michigan before transferring....if we asked cincy fans would they take newton for dejulius in a trade, theyd say no

you acting like i trashed him, i even praised newton in this thread, i noted think his offensive potential is extremely high..its not black and white for me like you are with grimes, mills, dejon..basically every houston player

your "preferred" stats are nice..memphis fans would shot somebody before trading dj jeffries for mamoudou diarra, who has a drastically higher PER and win shares..same argument for Rachal for tulsa

I think Darien Jackson could be on the cusp of top 20. His stats are somewhat similar to Sasser's. (A bit worse from 3, but causes more turnovers and is a defensive linchpin)

(07-13-2020 10:57 PM)pesik Wrote:  you acting like i trashed him, i even praised newton in this thread, i noted think his offensive potential is extremely high..its not black and white for me like you are with grimes, mills, dejon..basically every houston player

your "preferred" stats are nice..memphis fans would shot somebody before trading dj jeffries for mamoudou diarra, who has a drastically higher PER and win shares..same argument for Rachal for tulsa

The stats are the stats. I didn't make them up. They don't change, the only thing you can point at was I included a couple guys like Diarra that only played 10 minutes a game WHICH I NOTED AT THE BOTTOM as to why, because the PF spot at Cincy now has minutes open with Tre Scott graduated who killed it last year and he was stuck behind . Even though he was totally good when he actually played on the court take him the off the list if you want and set the level at 25 minutes or something and we know all the best players actually performing are accounted for sure.

I think most people are sophisticated enough around here to understand role and know the difference in a 10 minute a game guy and a 31 minute a game guy like Newton with that kind of load. Do i have to spoon feed everything to you. Set the limit to 20 or 25 minutes a game and take him out if you want, changes nothing for any of the other players.

As far as Jefferies he played 7 games in conference and had a 11.2 PER and wasn't good in them. That's just the facts, you want to pick at the biggest outliers out of 30 player whatever but he wasn't good in the 7 games he played in the AAC either way. That's just a fact but most people understand the variance of 7 games vs 18 and that his situation is different than most anyone listed for that reason as well. I expect more of him as well this season but again that doesn't change or discredit anything Newton or anyone else on the list actually did in AAC play.

Pick around the edges because you can't refute the primary guys we all know are on the court a lot or things about how little the ball actually goes into the basket for guys like Mills compared to Newton or Gardner. It's cut and dry and basically his one skill of scoring he's not even efficient or very good at. That's just a fact too. You want to talk about an empty stat guy inflated usage sucker. That's Mills clearly. Hell he barely even gets any stats other than his raw scoring on lame ass percentages, conference or OOC doesn't even matter. That's not an opinion that's just fact.

True Shooting

.554 Newton

.530 Gardner

.480 Mills

(07-13-2020 05:28 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  Ugh, haven’t you guys learned not to feed the ecu fans? It’s pointless.

I had to check their last few years records. They haven't won more than 11 games in like 4 years??

If you want your individual players to get respect just win some games. All the stats in the world don't mean anything if your team sucks. I look at the "PER" and "win shares" and all I can think is Houston's 6th man would average a double double on that team.

(07-14-2020 07:38 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  Pick around the edges because you can't refute the primary guys we all know are on the court a lot or things about how little the ball actually goes into the basket for guys like Mills compared to Newton or Gardner. It's cut and dry and basically his one skill of scoring he's not even efficient or very good at. That's just a fact too. You want to talk about an empty stat guy inflated usage sucker. That's Mills clearly. Hell he barely even gets any stats other than his raw scoring on lame ass percentages, conference or OOC doesn't even matter. That's not an opinion that's just fact.

True Shooting

.554 Newton

.530 Gardner

.480 Mills

this is why our debates are the worst...you take stupid, idiotic takes and then refuse to acknowledge when your idiotic take is dumb

you spent hours upon hours debating how juco stats would hold in the aac and high majorb"by 1-2%".....early in that debate i literally posted EVERY single juco the year prior that went high major- 100% had a drastic drop..that wasnt enough for you....you used kevin pelton as 100% of your evidence, and backed it with him being smart..i literally went and read his data, and found out you made up everything, and he never backed your point..TILL THIS DAY you refuse to admit you were wrong

your entire basis is true shooting...a stat you know good and well doesnt reflect his style of offense...heres the sick joke.....TS% includes FTs....we are talking about scoring..EFG% in just scoring..the argument is who is good at scoring

FULL season EFG%--
Caleb Mills - .453
Tristen newton- .453

newton is HORRENDOUS in efficiency.,....Mills 10 seconds into his film you can seen why his ts% isnt great..he shoots lots of mid ranges. the best midrange shooter in the conference jamarious burton had a horrible ts%/efg% in both his years

newton is just horrible and doesnt even shoot a ton of mid ranges..he is just horrible

mills had .453 fg% while playing a DRASTICALLY harder non-conference schedule

facts- newton played top 10 easiest non conference in the nation and ended up with a horrible efg% , the fact you chose efficiency as you argument is a joke

pretending his poor play vs poor competition in the non con didnt happen doesnt magically make it disappear..

mills literally got 2nd team all conference , as a freshmen, coming off the bench solely and only based on scoring

newton couldnt even get all-freshman....

stop it

(07-14-2020 11:16 AM)pesik Wrote:  this is why our debates are the worst...you take stupid, idiotic takes and then refuse to acknowledge when your idiotic take is dumb

Not only are you a OCD having nut job who can't disconnect from this board, you are delusional as well if you believe that.

Quote:you spent hours upon hours debating how juco stats would hold in the aac and high major, by 1-2%.....early in that debatei literally posted EVERY single juco th year prior that went high major..100% had a drastic drop..that wasnt enough for you....you used kevin pelton as 100% of your evidence, and backed it with him being smart..i literally went and read his data, and found out you made up everything, and he never backed your point

A guy that has literally spent 1.5 years of his life in the last 6 years on here lecturing me about spending "hours" that is rich man. Trying to change the subject again too I see, you are clearly losing every time you try to do that. Why don't you spend several more hour throwing together a 20 plays video from one blow out game editing it and call it "evidence" again. How about some more coachspeak while we are at it, that's all you got for evidence to back anything up ever.

Quote:your entire basis is true shooting...a stat you know good and well doesnt reflect his style of offense...heres the sick joke.....TS% includes FTs....we are talking about scoring..EFG% in just scoring

FULL season EFG%--
Caleb Mills - .453
Tristen newton- .453

this is a cute attempt at actual tangible numbers and substance on the court.

Wait, so FT's aren't shots or points and part of scoring now? You dumb*** this is the kind of stupid crap I and why I even despise to have a circle jerk of a conversation with you. All Effective FG gives you is a value of three point shooting vs 2 pointers. That's it, it's not close to complete picture of scoring and he even sucked at that too and Newton was way higher in the AAC than him in that as well.

FT's are one of the most important parts of high efficient offense, everyone knows that. So what they don't count now? Talk about manipulating, you don't get to pick and choose what good offense is. Shots are shots and True shooting weights them ALL to accurate value per offensive possession used. It's exactly what it is and Mills sucks period, he's not even close to the college average as a scorer.

Offense last time I checked is everything and FT's is a huge part of efficient offense. Gardner and Newton are great at getting to the line making shots and scoring, that's there game which is why having no space and the 347th three point shooting team around them makes what they do more amazing.

Points are points bottomline and mills isn't even close to average as a scorer much less as elite as either Gardner or Newton. That's the fact. True shooting is true value of scoring and he doesn't put the ball in the basket and he sucks at that, it's easily measurable. It's exactly what it is.

I could give a $hit what idiot coaches voted for him, those dinosaurs only see ppg and raw counting stats and no depth or context behind how he even got there which was highly inefficient.. The same idiot coaches that voted for Shawn Williams rookie of the year. Kind of the same players too, just a bunch of shot jackers didn't do much else, can't get to the line etc. Same reason why I didn't like him and he's averaging 5ppg in the WAC now.

youve gone full homer...

last year, JUST LAST YEAR Miggy was using ts% to stat why jayden gardener wasnt very a good player..as his ts% for a big is horrendous, you debated why that was dumb

if we used the EXACT same methodology and manipulation you are using today:
ts% and only in conference
Jayden gardner ts% -freshman 50% soph- 53% --these ARE Horrible for a big

martins igbanu- 65%
chris vogt 61%-
michael durr 56%
yetna 56%

im going to pretend like i'm an idiot who doesnt understand context and overall picture "Jayden gardener is just not good on offense" "he legit not a very good player"

im sure the homer and manipulator in you is tingling, trying to find a new preferred stat and make that the new end all be all

everything you do to other players in defense of your chosen ecu guy, no one ever does to your guys....there is a stat out there to push out whatever narrative you want ...i try to be fair to everyone...newton offensive efficiency is horrible, his fg% are horrible. even if you went to advanced metrics and divide it by the type of shots, unlike mills his would still be horrible..yet i never questioned his offense, and praised it, and praised the potential...

at first i thought you were decently smart but just had a hard time backing out of a bad take (hated being wrong, you knew you were wrong but just being prideful)...your new takes are miggy-esque and im starting to accept you just dont know much about basketball

according to sj

- ecu has a better basketball staff than cincy
- caleb mill who did 13pt per on houston in 21 mins, couldnt do 11 point per on 31 mins on ecu
- tristen newton who wasnt even all freshman, is a top 5 returning player
- jayden gardner and tristen newton are the nest duo in the conference

all while claiming he isnt a homer

(07-14-2020 12:11 PM)pesik Wrote:  youve gone full homer...

last year, JUST LAST YEAR Miggy was using ts% to stat why jayden gardener wasnt very a good player..as his ts% for a big is horrendous, you debated why that was dumb

if we used the EXACT same methodology and manipulation you are using today:
ts% and only in conference
Jayden gardner ts% -freshman 50% soph- 53% --these ARE Horrible for a big



martins igbanu- 65%
chris vogt 61%-
michael durr 56%
yetna 56%

So now you go back and actually only want to do AAC play when we get to Gardner and ignore his .570 overall true shooting both years. Shocking. You are the one that can't pick one, last year OOC didn't count now AAC doesn't, blah, blah.

you've gone full retard again not knowing what you are talking about.

Usage and minutes load

Gardner 29.9 usage and 36 minutes a game and still .530 true shooting percent in the AAC play which is good for a guy with his minutes load and usage. He's and above average scorer even at that usage and minutes load

Usage

28.5 martins igbanu- but 28 minutes a game
17.7 Vogt- 29 minutes
17.4 michael durr - 25 minutes
20.7 yetna -31 minutes

These are not the same. The thing you don't understand at all is the concept of usage. Guys that are high usage guys like Gardner and expected to score and carry the offense aren't expected to be Deandre Jordan like or put up the same percentages as bigs standing under the basket dunking and open shot or conserving energy cause they play 28 minutes.

Gardner is the primary scorer and also Gardner plays significantly more minutes exerting a lot of energy than most bigs which tires him out AND HE'S STILL THE MOST PRODUCTIVE PLAYER IN THE AAC DESPITE IT. As well as a totally solid scorer. If he was asked to play 25 minutes a game as the 3rd banana he would be even more eff that's how it normally goes, but he's completey fine now for a guy averaging 19ppg. on a solid .530 true shooting. Compare him to other 20ppg scorers with similar loads and he's a good scorer.

Mills is also high usage and doesn't play a ton of minutes though and is well rested by comparison as well who sucks 32% usage but he's still no where close the scorer Gardner is regardless. That's just the facts. You can't even grasp the relation ship of usage and scoring or minutes load. The fact he does all this and is still as productive as he each POSSESSION is still at 36 minutes a game is exactly why he is special.

your dumb and missed my point... i said i dont use ts% to judge anyone, nor do i look at inconference only as a definer...but noting that if we only did ts% and inconference only flat says gardener isnt good

I did not read anything but the first sentence of your response..you have already told me stats are stats, and ts% is the definer of who is good on offense..since we cannot add context to mills...we can not add context to Gardner..you can not change the rules to the game you made

stats are stats

ts% in conference

martins igbanu- 65%
chris vogt 61%-
michael durr 56%
yetna 56%

Gardner 53%

gardener is just not good on offense...and is horrible is the aspect o putting the ball in the bucket...he is horrible inefficient for a big...this is based on the information you have put forwards.....you have layed the rules..gardner isnt a top 5 player in this league...

im tired of playing your stupid game where bad stats by ecu chosen ones are given allowed to be given context
but the players you are attacking can not be given context....its dumb and manipulative
ignoring that you are the one picking the prefered stats

you make absurd rules and then dont even follow them for your own plaers

yeh...no.


LOCK IT UP!