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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #21
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
Terry in light of this country going further and further into debt: maybe it isn't a bad thing that the NCAA puts on constraints to spending and dial back the extravagance.

You have families paying $500 to $1500 a year per child to subsidize sports on campus. Is the mission of schools to create a small minority of student athletes who are basically paid employees and are totally detached from the college experience?
03-28-2020 09:22 AM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #22
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-27-2020 07:15 PM)nole Wrote:  *FSU has had a plan for MANY years to renovate Doak Cambell (totally $250-$400 Million) that it simply can't afford to do. But it is starting to be a structural issue and govt code is a big concern. See FSU's recent survey it sent to boosters to address this.

I think it's probably a fair statement that on average the typical ACC football stadium is around $300m out of date. Despite this, it probably won't be getting addressed soon because the athletic department has higher priority outlays right now trying to keep up with the other P5 conferences. Boston College, Duke, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, and Virginia need wholesale change of their entire stadium. At Boston College, Duke, Georgia Tech, and North Carolina this is a logistical nightmare. There's probably a few schools where the stadium is old enough and sufficiently behind in red tape like ADA compliance, fire codes, zoning, building abatement, modern security needs that you cannot legally renovate it anymore: it is now by definition an all or none job. That applies to the West Stands at Georgia Tech for sure, probably quite a few more stadiums again as well.

Boston College, Duke, Georgia Tech, North Carolina have structural issues in the setting of their stadium that means that parking isn't ideal and if those athletic departments don't explicitly own and set aside space for tailgating and fan congregation no matter how many are inside the stadium during the game it won't feel like the festive real deal atmosphere outside other than spread out little clusters. AFAIK GT is the only one of that group even attempting to tackle that problem.

Pittsburgh and Miami don't have control over their venue but in general the owning tenant keeps the venue to high standards for pro competition.

Just Louisville, Wake Forest, and Clemson own their own stadium and have it right about where it should be.
03-28-2020 10:21 AM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #23
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 09:22 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Terry in light of this country going further and further into debt: maybe it isn't a bad thing that the NCAA puts on constraints to spending and dial back the extravagance.

You have families paying $500 to $1500 a year per child to subsidize sports on campus. Is the mission of schools to create a small minority of student athletes who are basically paid employees and are totally detached from the college experience?

Every single pro sports league in the world has caps. Formula 1 use to be the iconic wild west where there are no spending limits. It got to where trimming a second off your lap time cost in the millions, and if you weren't willing to spend to such a degree than you'd lose money even when you won, you weren't seriously in contention. Now Formula 1 has spending limits and engine capacity limits.

Given that college athletics has no draft and a much wider breadth of teams that most sports, what probably makes the most sense is a cap with a luxury tax MLB style. So Alabama can still go around creating MTV cribs videos of their latest laser tag pavilion, but they'll subsidize everybody else in the process. This is politically the most likely to win enough people over because you're not telling the Alabamas of the world no.

I prefer tackling the argument head on like this instead of falling into the trap of "but what about students having to subsidize this madness!" It's incredibly rare ... but some athletic departments do turn profit and give back to the academic side and do so without subsidy. Generally these are teams with large Wal-Mart fan bases without much or any pro competition who also draw really well in sports that almost nobody does. LSU typically gives money back to the academic side, and LSU actually profits off their baseball team from gate revenue. Almost nobody's baseball team makes money. They don't hugely lose money either like the Title IX sports do ... but they're not profitable by and large and still need some of that sweet sweet MBB/FB money.
03-28-2020 10:30 AM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #24
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 10:30 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(03-28-2020 09:22 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Terry in light of this country going further and further into debt: maybe it isn't a bad thing that the NCAA puts on constraints to spending and dial back the extravagance.

You have families paying $500 to $1500 a year per child to subsidize sports on campus. Is the mission of schools to create a small minority of student athletes who are basically paid employees and are totally detached from the college experience?

Every single pro sports league in the world has caps. Formula 1 use to be the iconic wild west where there are no spending limits. It got to where trimming a second off your lap time cost in the millions, and if you weren't willing to spend to such a degree than you'd lose money even when you won, you weren't seriously in contention. Now Formula 1 has spending limits and engine capacity limits.

Given that college athletics has no draft and a much wider breadth of teams that most sports, what probably makes the most sense is a cap with a luxury tax MLB style. So Alabama can still go around creating MTV cribs videos of their latest laser tag pavilion, but they'll subsidize everybody else in the process. This is politically the most likely to win enough people over because you're not telling the Alabamas of the world no.

I prefer tackling the argument head on like this instead of falling into the trap of "but what about students having to subsidize this madness!" It's incredibly rare ... but some athletic departments do turn profit and give back to the academic side and do so without subsidy. Generally these are teams with large Wal-Mart fan bases without much or any pro competition who also draw really well in sports that almost nobody does. LSU typically gives money back to the academic side, and LSU actually profits off their baseball team from gate revenue. Almost nobody's baseball team makes money. They don't hugely lose money either like the Title IX sports do ... but they're not profitable by and large and still need some of that sweet sweet MBB/FB money.

Luxury tax is an excellent idea!
Something must be done or the golden goose will die!
03-28-2020 10:49 AM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #25
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
Actually Syracuse makes money on athletics. The Dome is owned by the school. (Cost $28M in 1980). The AD has always kept costs low. Sometimes to the detriment of the money making sports. They used to constantly rob the athletic profits back to the academic side. That has changed some the last 5-10 years. The school has committed about $120M so far. New roof, new LED lighting, some ADA compliance, new sound, new scoreboard. They promise A/C by Sept 21. Beyond that I'm not sure if they will go on to Phase 2 (expanded concourses, restaurants, recruiting lounge, etc...)

Our Dome is landlocked and tailgating sucks as you tailgate in numerous small urban lots close to the Dome or you ride a shuttle to the vast open lots 2 miles away. This will not change and probably get worse as the land gets more valuable around the campus.

Overall, Syracuse is probably in better shape than most P5 Athletic Departments because their facility costs are much lower
03-28-2020 11:29 AM
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nole Offline
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Post: #26
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 08:38 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  I'd say baseball stadium building is the least of your worries. You'll never get ROI unless you can convince Leon County to build a joint use stadium for a minor league club.

I've been to Doak Campbell several times. It looks great on the outside and many areas inside the bowl too. Are you saying they still need $250-400M more?

I did notice the skeleton of the stadium: ramps, bathrooms look old. Tell me they didn't put lipstick on a pig with the latest facade remodel?

Makes me think the Dome is the best bargain in the ACC. One building that covers Football, Basketball, Lacrosse and other events like concerts, HS football games, graduations, sports camps, marching band competitions, and monster truck shows!

The metal inside is structurally not sound. It needs to be replaced.

I paste quotes from FSU over the last 5 years or so that give better detail:

"The stadium renovations are just the first phase. In an interview with The Associated Press, Wilcox said that plans to renovate the rest of the stadium are in the preliminary stages, but that those could run $200 to $400 million.
"You are always going to be in the facilities business along with recruiting," Wilcox said. "Student-athletes are savvy consumers. When they go around and do their visits, they are seeing what everyone is doing. They want to see where they are going to play, practice, eat and live. That is why we have upgraded all of the locker rooms."

"Some speculation of further additions both inside and outside the stadium. Outside would be the potential of a hotel or conference center attached (helping to further make it a year-round facility). Inside would be extending club seating down the sides further."


The future vision for Doak would blow up the existing concession infrastructure and totally replace the sewer, plumbing and electric. This would give our concession partner the resources to offer a wide array of food and beverage options, including alcohol. As you said, to make it work right you also want wider aisles and more and better bathrooms.

Could it happen sooner? Sure. But I think it would have to be in "beer gardens" or special spaces where we could provide the right infrastructure.

While our infrastructure is nothing to brag about, we are not alone. There are a number of stadiums -- including UF -- with antiquated concessions. At least at Doak you have options. You can join the UCC for about $50 a month and have access to the 3rd floor patio and ball room where you can buy beer, wine or mixed drinks, upgraded concessions and tiled bathrooms. Doak also has skyboxes, the Varsity Club, skyboxes and club seats.

The next question is when will FSU address those changes to Doak? We have a design and a budget estimate (about $400 million in 2016 dollars) to replace all the infrastructure and grandstands. Right now we are focused on raising money for a football operations building, baseball, golf and basketball but I know it is Andy Miller's ambition to add the stadium project before his career is over. I think he'd like to say in the next five to seven years.


Jerry Kutz is Sr. Vice President of Seminole Boosters in charge of special projects including the $250 million Champions Campaign for FSU Athletics, renovations to Doak Campbell Stadium including the Champions Club. email: jkutz@fsu.edu Cell: (850) 508-8690

Agree with your post.
We had HKS come in about 5 years ago and do a master plan for the highest and best use for Doak. They envisioned the south endzone with the champions club as phase one with the east and west sidelines as phase 2 (and probably) phase 3.

The Champions Club is built and will reach critical mass this fall in terms of sales. It was profitable in year 1 with sales at 50 percent so Seminole Boosters is encouraged to move forward with raising money and completing design for phase 2 and 3 if athletics and the university and board of trustees is on board. It could happen within the next 7-10 years.

We had the architects give us a conceptual design of what the east and west could look like before we built phase 1. We needed to contemplate what the east and west structures would be someday before we built the Champions Club now and found we had blocked sightlines later. So while the east and west are not detailed drawings, they give us an idea of what the capacity could be with that design which is just north of 70,000.

Once we start the east and west, we have to upgrade to the new building code and meet all ADA requirements which is a good thing but eats away at capacity. If we kept the same bowl perimeter (which we probably will be confined to), and widened the majority of seats to 20 inches and went to a 30 inch tread rather than current 26 inch tread, it would reduce capacity to 50-55k. Just widening the aisles to put in a hand rail and required handicapped seating cuts capacity 5,000 seats. But you gain back 10k-15k seats by cantilevering the upper 6-10 rows of seats over the lower rows of seats like we've done in the Champions Club.

So, we can get it back to 70k or slightly more.

And I agree there are sections that could be standing decks or tighter seating for students (who don't want to sit) and visiting fans and a cheap seat section for fans who need to sample college game day.

The east and west sideline renovation would tear down only the metal seating structure, ramps, concourses, bathrooms and concession stands and not touch the brick buildings which house 500,000 sq ft of classrooms and offices and are topped with the skyboxes and press box. So, while it is a daunting project, it does not require a total demo, only the metal structure inside the University Center Complex buildings.

You are also correct about the spans. We are told the support spans can be spaced 2 or 3 times farther apart which requires fewer columns and gives us a lot of flexibility for concessions, bathrooms, etc.

Current cost to build is about $250 to $300 million and would need to be raised. We envision about 10 mid level skyboxes that we would lease to 10 individuals who made very large leadership gifts ($10 million or more) to the project. The remaining money would require a major capital campaign.

While all this is exciting to FSU season ticket holders, be forewarned: a project of this magnitude scrambles all the eggs in terms of seating. Stadium folks we've talked to, who have gone through a major project like this, tell us the only way to get it done is to do a total reseating of your existing season ticket holders.

Even if you just widen the seats in Doak from 16 inches to 20 inches, you reduce the number of people who can sit in a row from 38 to about 30. You do that in each of your center 6 sections and people who now sit on the 20 would be moved to the goal line.

As you get into actually trying to reseat -- which we have contemplated -- it gets very disruptive for groups of people who are used to sitting together or around the same people, or on an aisle, etc.

We've had lively discussion on how best to accomplish it.


Jerry Kutz is Sr. Vice President of Seminole Boosters in charge of special projects including the $250 million Champions Campaign for FSU Athletics, renovations to Doak Campbell Stadium including the Champions Club. email: jkutz@fsu.edu Cell: (850) 508-8690
57 Jerry Kutz, Today at 11:22 AM
03-28-2020 11:42 AM
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nole Offline
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Post: #27
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 07:03 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 10:45 PM)nole Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 10:35 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-27-2020 07:15 PM)nole Wrote:  ...FSU's admin is a mess....they are about to lose their AD, president, and 40 year booster president all within the next 18 months. None have a good escape plan. It will get worse at FSU.

I'm not suggesting FSU has nothing to worry about, but you have to admit that being 3rd in revenue doesn't fit with being poor. There's a huge disconnect there somewhere.

I think that leads credence to my regular assertion, that if my memory serves you might normally doubt, that FSU has some admin issues.

Understood. So it sounds like the boosters are trying to keep it propped up, but the administrators are basically wasting their money?


I don't know.

I know some facts. I know some inside info. I know that 90% of the conclusions I read from FSU's fan base or outside it's fanbase are ridiculous and way WAY off.

FSU has $$$ issues. There is ZERO way around that. That is a FACT.

The nuance is 'in order to keep up with teams competing with national titles in football.'

Somewhere, something went off the tracks. Maybe they misspent the money they had, maybe priorities are wrong, maybe admin is a mess and lack of leadership is ALWAYS costly.

But FSU football does not have the $$$ it needs to compete at elite levels. Why is debatable.
03-28-2020 11:45 AM
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TexanMark Offline
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Post: #28
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
Nole thanks for the insight.

Sadly they should have addressed the structural stuff first but I understand why they didn't (skeleton improvement vs a new fashionable suit coat)
03-28-2020 02:01 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #29
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 09:22 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Terry in light of this country going further and further into debt: maybe it isn't a bad thing that the NCAA puts on constraints to spending and dial back the extravagance.

You have families paying $500 to $1500 a year per child to subsidize sports on campus. Is the mission of schools to create a small minority of student athletes who are basically paid employees and are totally detached from the college experience?


I agree with you.

I was just commenting that legions of Notre Dame fans have complained about its Administration over 7 decades in similar fashion as FSU fans currently do.

It all looks familiar, that is all.

Sports fans look at the university and its priorities differently than non-sports fans, for certain.
03-28-2020 02:25 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #30
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 02:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Nole thanks for the insight.

Sadly they should have addressed the structural stuff first but I understand why they didn't (skeleton improvement vs a new fashionable suit coat)

I get why they did some of it honestly. I think FSU's #1 issue is, they don't hire pros to run the football program. Dave Hart was a pro....but the good ole boys ran him off.

The list of unprofessionalism since is LONG and it has made a real impact on FSU football.

I will say this. There are some interesting ideas floating around for the stadium. They may never get there. But there are some things they can do.
03-28-2020 03:57 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #31
Exclamation RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 03:57 PM)nole Wrote:  
(03-28-2020 02:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Nole thanks for the insight.

Sadly they should have addressed the structural stuff first but I understand why they didn't (skeleton improvement vs a new fashionable suit coat)

I get why they did some of it honestly. I think FSU's #1 issue is, they don't hire pros to run the football program. Dave Hart was a pro....but the good ole boys ran him off.

The list of unprofessionalism since is LONG and it has made a real impact on FSU football.

I will say this. There are some interesting ideas floating around for the stadium. They may never get there. But there are some things they can do.

So prompted by your post, Nole, I looked up Dave Hart Jr. at FSU. Impressive. This says a lot right here:

Quote:Oct. 1, 1999 - FSU’s Dave Hart Takes Over As President Of Division IA Athletic Directors’ Association. Previous Presidents of the Association include:
DeLoss Dodds....1995-1996 University of Texas
Vince Dooley......1994-1995 University of Georgia
Sam Jankovich...1990-1991 University of Miami
Frank Broyles.....1988-1989 University of Arkansas
Homer Rice........1986-1987 Georgia Tech University
https://seminoles.com/fsus-dave-hart-tak...directors/
03-28-2020 06:25 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #32
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 06:25 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Homer Rice........1986-1987 Georgia Tech University
https://seminoles.com/fsus-dave-hart-tak...directors/

I'd like to thank Florida State College for that informative page. Go Fighting Sioux!
(This post was last modified: 03-28-2020 06:49 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
03-28-2020 06:49 PM
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nole Offline
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Post: #33
RE: ACC Football Spending By School
(03-28-2020 06:25 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(03-28-2020 03:57 PM)nole Wrote:  
(03-28-2020 02:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Nole thanks for the insight.

Sadly they should have addressed the structural stuff first but I understand why they didn't (skeleton improvement vs a new fashionable suit coat)

I get why they did some of it honestly. I think FSU's #1 issue is, they don't hire pros to run the football program. Dave Hart was a pro....but the good ole boys ran him off.

The list of unprofessionalism since is LONG and it has made a real impact on FSU football.

I will say this. There are some interesting ideas floating around for the stadium. They may never get there. But there are some things they can do.

So prompted by your post, Nole, I looked up Dave Hart Jr. at FSU. Impressive. This says a lot right here:

Quote:Oct. 1, 1999 - FSU’s Dave Hart Takes Over As President Of Division IA Athletic Directors’ Association. Previous Presidents of the Association include:
DeLoss Dodds....1995-1996 University of Texas
Vince Dooley......1994-1995 University of Georgia
Sam Jankovich...1990-1991 University of Miami
Frank Broyles.....1988-1989 University of Arkansas
Homer Rice........1986-1987 Georgia Tech University
https://seminoles.com/fsus-dave-hart-tak...directors/

FSU hired a stupid redneck politician (he played football at FSU) TK Wetherall for president. He really wanted to be AD. He basically self reported FSU to the NCAA to run Dave Hart off because he wanted to micro manage (ie BE THE AD) the athletic dept and Hart was a professional.

Everything solid (well about 90%) about FSU athletics comes from Dave Hart even today. Coach Hamilton...Dave Hart hire. The soccer coach with 2 national titles.....Dave Hart hire. The track coach with 3 national titles....Dave Hart hire. Jimbo was hired while Hart was AD. Directors cup never went near top 20 before Dave Hart, etc, etc, etc The softball field, soccer field. Since, the facilities, professionalism, etc have fallen off drastically. That isn't a 100% to 0% thing, but the stats are DRASTIC.

FSU's latest AD.....a hire with zero experience in athletics. FSU's pres hired him because they were college buddies.

FSU fans love the hire.....because FSU fans are part of the problem.

FSU is a good ole boy program but they aren't the auburn, OK state, Texas A&M type good ole boys with billions. They are just the stupid kind.
(This post was last modified: 03-29-2020 09:57 AM by nole.)
03-29-2020 09:35 AM
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