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AAC Waiver Approved
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #421
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-07-2021 12:46 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 12:11 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  When people won’t recognize the work at Temple football for what has really been more than a decade now, they spew stuff like that. Especially within the more challenging AAC? Come on, now.

But, even if Temple was less consistent, they and Tulane still sort of capture a problem with the power perception thing, both having been in major conferences at one time. Not unlike SMU, who was pulse-less in both football and basketball for a very long time there. Those guys need to go somewhere, and we know they also reside in desirable locations for markets and recruitment. The ECU’s of the world, no matter how good they get again, just won’t ever seemingly pass any sight test for reasons that they can’t help, whereas others go right in.

And you would definitely want Temple basketball in your conference.
This is exactly how I feel about it.

This gets back to the point of "think like a university president and not like a sports fan" - Temple and Tulane are actually the types of schools that are much more like P5 institutions regardless of performance. So, if the idea is to create something that you can argue is a 6th power conference (which I think is a fool's errand because the P5 will just pick off the most valuable parts rather than elevate an entire league, but I digress), then you honestly need more Temples and Tulanes than city/directional schools. The only true "city school" in the P5 is Louisville (note that Pitt is a top tier AAU research institution that is akin to a flagship, so it's not a "city school") and there aren't any directional schools at all in the P5 (and no one should be obtuse enough to bring up USC as supposedly being a directional school - private universities don't count).

Yeah, I thought it went without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that you want to do business and keep the company of the Temple's, Tulane's, and SMU's of the AAC because they are great schools. That their presence in major conferences came because of that in some way, shape, or form. Not because they just happened to be around.

That isn't going to change anytime soon. It's why those schools probably have a closer shot at P5 elevation than others, much to others' frustration. Same goes for the likes of Rice out there, or, even Army when Army isn't that good. You want to be associated with the school, and the school has its benefits, even if the sports on the field are sometimes painful to watch because of how bad it is. I mean, consider how many times the Big East approached Army and Navy over the years. It goes way back, and to eras when both knew they were terrible and had to self-select out. College leaders still wanted to be around them. The reputation and association matters.

Whether there's fairness or ability to rise above your station is a debate for another time, but, for any of these potentially emergent power conferences, get used to some of the names you don't care to see. They're there for reasons that fans just don't control or consider.
06-08-2021 07:58 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #422
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-08-2021 07:58 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 12:46 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 12:11 PM)BraveKnight Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 06:51 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  When people won’t recognize the work at Temple football for what has really been more than a decade now, they spew stuff like that. Especially within the more challenging AAC? Come on, now.

But, even if Temple was less consistent, they and Tulane still sort of capture a problem with the power perception thing, both having been in major conferences at one time. Not unlike SMU, who was pulse-less in both football and basketball for a very long time there. Those guys need to go somewhere, and we know they also reside in desirable locations for markets and recruitment. The ECU’s of the world, no matter how good they get again, just won’t ever seemingly pass any sight test for reasons that they can’t help, whereas others go right in.

And you would definitely want Temple basketball in your conference.
This is exactly how I feel about it.

This gets back to the point of "think like a university president and not like a sports fan" - Temple and Tulane are actually the types of schools that are much more like P5 institutions regardless of performance. So, if the idea is to create something that you can argue is a 6th power conference (which I think is a fool's errand because the P5 will just pick off the most valuable parts rather than elevate an entire league, but I digress), then you honestly need more Temples and Tulanes than city/directional schools. The only true "city school" in the P5 is Louisville (note that Pitt is a top tier AAU research institution that is akin to a flagship, so it's not a "city school") and there aren't any directional schools at all in the P5 (and no one should be obtuse enough to bring up USC as supposedly being a directional school - private universities don't count).

Yeah, I thought it went without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that you want to do business and keep the company of the Temple's, Tulane's, and SMU's of the AAC because they are great schools. That their presence in major conferences came because of that in some way, shape, or form. Not because they just happened to be around.

That isn't going to change anytime soon. It's why those schools probably have a closer shot at P5 elevation than others, much to others' frustration. Same goes for the likes of Rice out there, or, even Army when Army isn't that good. You want to be associated with the school, and the school has its benefits, even if the sports on the field are sometimes painful to watch because of how bad it is. I mean, consider how many times the Big East approached Army and Navy over the years. It goes way back, and to eras when both knew they were terrible and had to self-select out. College leaders still wanted to be around them. The reputation and association matters.

Whether there's fairness or ability to rise above your station is a debate for another time, but, for any of these potentially emergent power conferences, get used to some of the names you don't care to see. They're there for reasons that fans just don't control or consider.


I agree fully. Some fans tend to let their biases and emotions get the best of them. The loss of UConn was a big blow to the AAC in so many respects (nothwithstanding football). The AAC fans who argue otherwise are either 1. unwilling to admit this even though they know it's true; or 2. clueless.
06-08-2021 08:18 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #423
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-07-2021 02:27 PM)JamesTKirk Wrote:  FBS universities that have already been members of power conferences:

Cincinnati#@^ (Big East; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Houston#@^ (SWC; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Connecticut#@+ (R1; Big East; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Temple#@ (R1; Big East FB; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

SMU#@ (SWC; final top-25 MBB, 2014-17; ranked FB teams, 2019-20)

Rice# (SWC; R1; AAU Member)

Tulane# (SEC; R1; AAU Member)

South Florida (R1; Big East)

Technically speaking, the AAC was at least nominally a power conference in 2013, as it retained the AQ status of the Big East for that last year of the BCS. Therefore one could argue that all AAC members that year were power schools, including UCF, Houston, Memphis, SMU, and Temple. So the only members that have no claim whatsoever to historical power conference membership are ECU, Tulsa, and Navy (and Wichita State, but they're non-football of course).
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2021 11:23 AM by Nerdlinger.)
06-08-2021 11:21 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #424
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-08-2021 11:21 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 02:27 PM)JamesTKirk Wrote:  FBS universities that have already been members of power conferences:

Cincinnati#@^ (Big East; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Houston#@^ (SWC; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Connecticut#@+ (R1; Big East; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Temple#@ (R1; Big East FB; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

SMU#@ (SWC; final top-25 MBB, 2014-17; ranked FB teams, 2019-20)

Rice# (SWC; R1; AAU Member)

Tulane# (SEC; R1; AAU Member)

South Florida (R1; Big East)

Technically speaking, the AAC was at least nominally a power conference in 2013, as it retained the AQ status of the Big East for that last year of the BCS. Therefore one could argue that all AAC members that year were power schools, including UCF, Houston, Memphis, SMU, and Temple. So the only members that have no claim whatsoever to historical power conference membership are ECU, Tulsa, and Navy (and Wichita State, but they're non-football of course).

Yep, everyone in the AAC in 2013 was a member of an AQ-Power conference that season. A Dead One Walking, of course, but still.
06-08-2021 12:02 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #425
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-08-2021 12:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-08-2021 11:21 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(06-07-2021 02:27 PM)JamesTKirk Wrote:  FBS universities that have already been members of power conferences:

Cincinnati#@^ (Big East; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Houston#@^ (SWC; R1; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Connecticut#@+ (R1; Big East; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

Temple#@ (R1; Big East FB; one of the "greatest college basketball programs ever")*

SMU#@ (SWC; final top-25 MBB, 2014-17; ranked FB teams, 2019-20)

Rice# (SWC; R1; AAU Member)

Tulane# (SEC; R1; AAU Member)

South Florida (R1; Big East)

Technically speaking, the AAC was at least nominally a power conference in 2013, as it retained the AQ status of the Big East for that last year of the BCS. Therefore one could argue that all AAC members that year were power schools, including UCF, Houston, Memphis, SMU, and Temple. So the only members that have no claim whatsoever to historical power conference membership are ECU, Tulsa, and Navy (and Wichita State, but they're non-football of course).

Yep, everyone in the AAC in 2013 was a member of an AQ-Power conference that season. A Dead One Walking, of course, but still.

lol---that technically means Houston, Temple, and SMU are the only schools to be demoted from power conferences twice. Thats a dubious honor...talk about bubble teams.
06-08-2021 12:41 PM
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JamesTKirk Offline
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Post: #426
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-08-2021 11:21 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Technically speaking, the AAC was at least nominally a power conference in 2013, as it retained the AQ status of the Big East for that last year of the BCS. Therefore one could argue that all AAC members that year were power schools, including UCF, Houston, Memphis, SMU, and Temple. So the only members that have no claim whatsoever to historical power conference membership are ECU, Tulsa, and Navy (and Wichita State, but they're non-football of course).

Nerdlinger, thank you for sharing that information! I hadn't been aware of that fact, but it is technically correct.

It would thus be accurate to describe the AAC in these glowing terms:

"The American Athletic Association has 10 full (football, basketball, and olympic sports) members, 8 of which (Memphis, Southern Methodist, Temple, and Tulane Universities, and the Universities of Central Florida, Cincinnati, Houston, and South Florida ) are former power conference universities. In addition, the American has one distinguished football member (the U.S. Naval Academy), and one distinguished basketball/olympic sports member (Wichita State University)."

In addition, Tulsa has had a proud history of basketball and football success. Tulsa teams have played in 10 National Invitational Tournaments (winning the 1981 and 2001 NIT championships) since 1953, and 16 NCAA tournaments (advancing to the Elite Eight in 2000) since 1955. Tulsa football teams have played in 22 bowl games, including the Orange, Sugar, Gator, and Liberty Bowls, and 8 Tulsa teams have finished their seasons in the AP Top 20 or Top 25 since 1942.


When one describes the conference in these terms, the connotation is that the American is, in essence, a conference of distinguished, legacy, and former power conference teams.

It fits perfectly with Commissioner Aresco's effort to portray the American as a "power" or "P6" conference. It might be helpful if more AAC fans were to get into the habit of describing the American as, basically, a conference of former power conference schools, enhanced by the addition of Navy Football and Wichita State Basketball.


(06-08-2021 12:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yep, everyone in the AAC in 2013 was a member of an AQ-Power conference that season.

That is a positive attribute, and could turn out to be helpful for the conference from a public relations, marketing, and personnel-recruiting perspective.


(06-08-2021 12:41 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ---...that means Houston, Temple, and SMU are the only schools to be demoted from power conferences twice...

You were obviously speaking ironically (to provide comic relief) of course, but strictly speaking, Houston and SMU were never "demoted," and none of the other AAC teams (Connecticut, Memphis, Temple, UCF, or USF) were demoted after the 2013 season.

Houston and SMU were members of the Southwest Conference, which imploded, and the 2013 football season was the final season of the BCS era.

I'm sure you would also agree that there is no shame in being a former member of a power conference. To the contrary, it is a badge of distinction and it conveys a certain sense of a program's historical sense of legacy.

If you were to ask most UCF or Memphis fans if they are pleased or displeased to know that they were members of a BCS/power conference - - which they actually were for one year, technically speaking, most would probably prefer to know that they were, even for just one year.
(This post was last modified: 06-08-2021 02:52 PM by JamesTKirk.)
06-08-2021 02:24 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #427
RE: AAC Waiver Approved
(06-08-2021 02:24 PM)JamesTKirk Wrote:  
(06-08-2021 11:21 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Technically speaking, the AAC was at least nominally a power conference in 2013, as it retained the AQ status of the Big East for that last year of the BCS. Therefore one could argue that all AAC members that year were power schools, including UCF, Houston, Memphis, SMU, and Temple. So the only members that have no claim whatsoever to historical power conference membership are ECU, Tulsa, and Navy (and Wichita State, but they're non-football of course).

Nerdlinger, thank you for sharing that information! I hadn't been aware of that fact, but it is technically correct.

It would thus be accurate to describe the AAC in these glowing terms:

"The American Athletic Association has 10 full (football, basketball, and olympic sports) members, 8 of which (Memphis, Southern Methodist, Temple, and Tulane Universities, and the Universities of Central Florida, Cincinnati, Houston, and South Florida ) are former power conference universities. In addition, the American has one distinguished football member (the U.S. Naval Academy), and one distinguished basketball/olympic sports member (Wichita State University)."

When one describes the conference in these terms, the connotation is that the American is, in essence, a conference of distinguished, legacy, and former power conference teams.

It fits perfectly with Commissioner Aresco's effort to portray the American as a "power" or "P6" conference. It might be helpful if AAC fans were to get into the habit of describing the American as, basically, a conference of former power conference schools, enhanced by the addition of Navy Football and Wichita State Basketball.


(06-08-2021 12:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yep, everyone in the AAC in 2013 was a member of an AQ-Power conference that season.

That is a positive attribute, and could turn out to be helpful for the conference from a PR perspective, and otherwise.


(06-08-2021 12:41 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  ---...that means Houston, Temple, and SMU are the only schools to be demoted from power conferences twice...

You were obviously speaking ironically (to provide comic relief) of course, but strictly speaking, Houston and SMU were never "demoted," and none of the other AAC teams (Connecticut, Memphis, Temple, UCF, or USF) were demoted after the 2013 season.

Houston and SMU were members of the Southwest Conference, which imploded, and the 2013 football season was the final season of the BCS era.

I'm sure you would also agree that there is no shame in being a former member of a power conference. To the contrary, it is a badge of distinction and it conveys a certain sense of a program's historical sense of legacy.

If you were to ask most UCF or Memphis fans if they are pleased or displeased to know that they were members of a BCS/power conference - - which they actually were for one year, technically speaking, most would probably prefer to know that they were, even for just one year.


On this theme, I clearly recall the days when Memphis and Cincinnati were independents in football (and perhaps more "loosely associated" — i.e., nationally respected — with power football programs because of that) and were members of the old Metro and Conference USA leagues (both of which were better than the current AAC in basketball).

So that one year of the American being a AQ power league, though nice, was not much compared to the earlier days for this Tiger and Bearcat fan (obviously, UC being a part of the Big East was huge, too).

Memphis and Cincinnati simply need to keep doing their thing, be good members of the AAC and "stay the course."
06-08-2021 02:50 PM
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