Not enough is being said about how amazing the Dayton police were. The killer was armed with a 100 round drum and was neutralized by the police within "30 seconds" of shots fired. In that "30 seconds" he was able to kill 9 and wound 26.

I am a gun enthusiast and CCW holder, but I would like to know your thoughts on the continued legality of drum magazines.

(08-04-2019 05:58 PM)450bench Wrote:  Devaluing human life. Social media. The internet as a whole. The political climate created by the left (and Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell and other Republicans). Lack of respect for others. Splintering family situations. Lack of respect for a higher power. Zero respect for authority.
Just so many contributing factors.
Plus, some people are just simply evil.

FIFY

(08-04-2019 06:24 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  Not enough is being said about how amazing the Dayton police were. The killer was armed with a 100 round drum and was neutralized by the police within "30 seconds" of shots fired. In that "30 seconds" he was able to kill 9 and wound 26.

I am a gun enthusiast and CCW holder, but I would like to know your thoughts on the continued legality of drum magazines.

That area of Dayton was a high trafficked site. It already had plenty of cops around from what I've read. Pretty much every spot like it will need heavy police presence from now on during peak hours. Plus, get used to security officers at every Walmart, Target and mall in the future (that exists now but not everywhere).

(08-04-2019 06:42 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 05:58 PM)450bench Wrote:  Devaluing human life. Social media. The internet as a whole. The political climate created by the left (and Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell and other Republicans). Lack of respect for others. Splintering family situations. Lack of respect for a higher power. Zero respect for authority.
Just so many contributing factors.
Plus, some people are just simply evil.

FIFY

(08-04-2019 04:42 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
Heavy.com
@HeavySan
· 35m
In his Twitter profile, Connor Betts, the 24-year-old suspected gunman in the Dayton mass shooting, wrote, "he/him / anime fan / metalhead / leftist / i'm going to hell and i'm not coming back." (link: http://bit.ly/2KpcrCL) bit.ly/2KpcrCL

Dayton is about to be memory holed.

I hope Newsbusters is on this. They need to track El Paso and Dayton coverage up to the discovery that the Dayton shooter is a self-admitted leftist, and how that ratio changes from that point on.

(08-04-2019 06:42 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 05:58 PM)450bench Wrote:  Devaluing human life. Social media. The internet as a whole. The political climate created by the left (and Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell and other Republicans). Lack of respect for others. Splintering family situations. Lack of respect for a higher power. Zero respect for authority.
Just so many contributing factors.
Plus, some people are just simply evil.

FIFY

No you didn't, you contributed to the problem.

When a democratic president took the White House, some people didn't like it, myself included. We were irritated. Stewed over it for a few days or maybe a week. Then, we accepted it. Sure we disagreed with his policies, ok, but he was still the president. You get over it.

The libs have changed that thought process to barbaric lows. You've exposed yourselves for the radicals you are. It's beyond just being crybabies. It's almost criminal what you've done and in some cases it is criminal. Truly criminal. You have divided the country. Yes, YOUR SIDE IS RESPONSIBLE.

God help us all when Trump beats your azz again in 2020.

(08-04-2019 10:04 AM)IAH Wrote:  The reason for this mass shootings is clearly a combination of factors. And to say that gun laws couldn’t be improved, not even a little, to help avoid some of these tragedies is non sense.

I am not saying it has do me something drastic, but I am sure something can be done.

Such as? You people are constantly harping on the need for new gun laws, ignoring that we already have laws on the books that people like these shooters ignore. For instance, it's against the law to murder. You harp on it without ever offering up anything that doesn't punish law abiding citizens while having no impact on the criminals who commit these acts.

(08-04-2019 10:53 AM)TheOrigamiJimmyChin Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 08:34 AM)SoMs Eagle Wrote:  Devaluation of life. From video games to abortion to violent movies, the youth of this country are growing up desensitized. No God or higher power. God is mocked and man’s the new deity. All of this is not surprising.

The lives of many Americans have been devalued since the founding of this nation. Look no further than the Constitution, which counted slaves as only 3/5's of a human, not fully human. It continues through the history of slavery (trading humans as property), lynchings and KKK night rides, Blacks being spit on for trying to get an equal education, police using hoses and dogs on peaceful protestors. We just heard another recent example with then-Governor, and later President, Ronald Reagan referring to African as monkeys...to the great delight of sitting President Nixon.

Some lives have always been devalued by our society at large. It continues today with shootings (mass or not), physical and sexual abuse of children, our treatment of immigrant children, and much more.

I think in general we are in a better place than we were 50 and 100 and 200 years ago, but we have a President today that is stoking the fires of hatred and division.

Can you provide some examples of that, not opinions but factual examples? I'll wait.

(08-04-2019 11:00 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 10:53 AM)TheOrigamiJimmyChin Wrote:  I think in general we are in a better place than we were 50 and 100 and 200 years ago, but we have a President today that is stoking the fires of hatred and division.

I'm tired of hearing that talking point.

His political opponents have been calling him AND his voters, nazis, racists, white supremacists and Russian collaborators from day 1.

Who the hell are you people to call out hatred and division? What a bunch of flaming hypocrites.

You people dish out hatred and division every hour of every day.

truEth...

(08-04-2019 11:06 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 11:00 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 10:53 AM)TheOrigamiJimmyChin Wrote:  I think in general we are in a better place than we were 50 and 100 and 200 years ago, but we have a President today that is stoking the fires of hatred and division.

I'm tired of hearing that talking point.

His political opponents have been calling him AND his voters, nazis, racists, white supremacists and Russian collaborators from day 1.

Who the hell are you people to call out hatred and division? What a bunch of flaming hypocrites.

You people dish out hatred and division every hour of every day.

I think it’s a valid talking point. Yours is as well.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked him, can you provide examples, not opinions but fact based examples of him doing anything remotely like that? I'll wait.

IMO Obama was far more divisive.

(08-04-2019 02:31 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 01:53 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Dayton shooter killed his sister.

Read that too.
Guessing he was upset at his sister for something, tracked her down, found her at a bar and took her out as well as others. Sick SOB. Glad he's dead.

The most common threads among these type of shooters is they are loners and they play violent video games.

That does't mean all loners who play video games are going to go postal but they are two characteristics shared by those who have. Violent video games can desensitize people to killing because they do it all the time in their cyber lives.

It may explain why mass shootings have become common place since the 1990s and really weren't beforehand. People have always had guns. Why wasn't this happening in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s?

...prior to the 90s there were no realistic-looking violent video games and nuclear families were intact at a higher percentage.

The most common thread has been that most of these shooters are on psychotropic drugs and were from an early age.

(08-04-2019 03:02 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  This **** would stop if open carry was the norm and concealed carry was encouraged by qualified individuals.

An armed society is a polite society.

We're at 83 deaths so far in 2019. There were 102 deaths in 2018. The last line in the top graph is 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ma...ted_States

(08-04-2019 03:21 PM)IAH Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 12:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 10:04 AM)IAH Wrote:  The reason for this mass shootings is clearly a combination of factors. And to say that gun laws couldn’t be improved, not even a little, to help avoid some of these tragedies is non sense.

I am not saying it has do me something drastic, but I am sure something can be done.

Such as?

And if so, why hasn’t it been done already with the ~20,000 various gun laws we have now?

Honest ?, I have two kids in college that are currently home.

We had a 2 hour drive to the airport a couple weeks ago and for some reason (forgotten now) this topic came up.

Both of them said much the same thing, “ we’ve got to do SOMETHING!”. I said fine. But what?

It was all gun licensing, gun registration, gun ownership restriction etc. I asked how many criminals are going to follow those laws all of the sudden?

Not much in response cause there is none.

Any restriction, additional burocracy, license, etc could help. The same way a well lit house, or a house with an alarm sign in the front yard helps to stop certain types of criminals (of course not all, if someone is determined to break into your house they will probably find a way). But I would assume same would apply to these shootings.

Say that a license requires some courses, tests etc. Where you add some evaluations where these guys think they could be flagged. Or you make the waiting period for the background check last a few months. Or the first gun you buy is s more basic with a limit in ammunition, and maybe you have to wait a while (say a year) to be allowed to buy as many as you want. Or if you are ubder 25 (I thought if this limit thinking of rental cars) a parent or say a shooting instructor needs to vouch for you.

Look, I just thought of these ideas now, and I am sure you will find issues with them. My point is that any barrier helps.

We already have barriers. What you want to do is punish law abiding citizens and hinder their ability to protect themselves and their families.

(08-04-2019 03:44 PM)IAH Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 03:33 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 03:21 PM)IAH Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 12:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 10:04 AM)IAH Wrote:  The reason for this mass shootings is clearly a combination of factors. And to say that gun laws couldn’t be improved, not even a little, to help avoid some of these tragedies is non sense.

I am not saying it has do me something drastic, but I am sure something can be done.

Such as?

And if so, why hasn’t it been done already with the ~20,000 various gun laws we have now?

Honest ?, I have two kids in college that are currently home.

We had a 2 hour drive to the airport a couple weeks ago and for some reason (forgotten now) this topic came up.

Both of them said much the same thing, “ we’ve got to do SOMETHING!”. I said fine. But what?

It was all gun licensing, gun registration, gun ownership restriction etc. I asked how many criminals are going to follow those laws all of the sudden?

Not much in response cause there is none.

Any restriction, additional burocracy, license, etc could help. The same way a well lit house, or a house with an alarm sign in the front yard helps to stop certain types of criminals (of course not all, if someone is determined to break into your house they will probably find a way). But I would assume same would apply to these shootings.

Say that a license requires some courses, tests etc. Where you add some evaluations where these guys think they could be flagged. Or you make the waiting period for the background check last a few months. Or the first gun you buy is s more basic with a limit in ammunition, and maybe you have to wait a while (say a year) to be allowed to buy as many as you want. Or if you are ubder 25 (I thought if this limit thinking of rental cars) a parent or say a shooting instructor needs to vouch for you.

Look, I just thought of these ideas now, and I am sure you will find issues with them. My point is that any barrier helps.

I’m short on time right now, but very quickly none of those will prevent two types of people from getting guns or using another method of mass killings like driving down a bike path at 70 mph on a Saturday afternoon.

Two types: criminals and those bent on killing people: nuts IOWs.

Who will it affect? Law abiding citizens. Hunh

I don’t think you can just assume it would not stop some of these guys. And of course I agree that it would not stop all of them.

Also you cannot just assume all of these guys would find a different way of killing a bunch of people if they are not able to buy a gun.

I know it would affect law abiding citizens more... but so does say airport security. I mean , how mean law abiding citizens go through security before we catch a nut case.

You are unbelievably naive.

(08-04-2019 04:09 PM)IAH Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 04:01 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 03:44 PM)IAH Wrote:  I don’t think you can just assume it would not stop some of these guys. And of course I agree that it would not stop all of them.

Also you cannot just assume all of these guys would find a different way of killing a bunch of people if they are not able to buy a gun.

I know it would affect law abiding citizens more... but so does say airport security. I mean , how mean law abiding citizens go through security before we catch a nut case.

There is very little reason to think it would deter most of these cases. They are typically very calculated and premeditated, and the perps have thought long and hard about how they are going to do it and why they are doing it. Most of them have manifestos and have been building to their attacks for many months if not years.

Such people are not going to be deterred by background checks or banning AR rifles and its absurd to pretend they will be.

I don’t think you can put all these guys in the same category. And I don’t think we can assume we know for sure how many of these cases this type of policy would or would not stop. And I am not a expert, I came up with those examples in about 30 seconds.

Which should give you pause to consider the foolishness of your statements.

(08-04-2019 08:28 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 03:21 PM)IAH Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 12:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 10:04 AM)IAH Wrote:  The reason for this mass shootings is clearly a combination of factors. And to say that gun laws couldn’t be improved, not even a little, to help avoid some of these tragedies is non sense.

I am not saying it has do me something drastic, but I am sure something can be done.

Such as?

And if so, why hasn’t it been done already with the ~20,000 various gun laws we have now?

Honest ?, I have two kids in college that are currently home.

We had a 2 hour drive to the airport a couple weeks ago and for some reason (forgotten now) this topic came up.

Both of them said much the same thing, “ we’ve got to do SOMETHING!”. I said fine. But what?

It was all gun licensing, gun registration, gun ownership restriction etc. I asked how many criminals are going to follow those laws all of the sudden?

Not much in response cause there is none.

Any restriction, additional burocracy, license, etc could help. The same way a well lit house, or a house with an alarm sign in the front yard helps to stop certain types of criminals (of course not all, if someone is determined to break into your house they will probably find a way). But I would assume same would apply to these shootings.

Say that a license requires some courses, tests etc. Where you add some evaluations where these guys think they could be flagged. Or you make the waiting period for the background check last a few months. Or the first gun you buy is s more basic with a limit in ammunition, and maybe you have to wait a while (say a year) to be allowed to buy as many as you want. Or if you are ubder 25 (I thought if this limit thinking of rental cars) a parent or say a shooting instructor needs to vouch for you.

Look, I just thought of these ideas now, and I am sure you will find issues with them. My point is that any barrier helps.

We already have barriers. What you want to do is punish law abiding citizens and hinder their ability to protect themselves and their families.

I was staying at a hotel in Vegas. You had to use keycard entry to get to the elevators and walk through a metal detector manned by a security guard.

(08-04-2019 05:58 PM)450bench Wrote:  Devaluing human life. Social media. The internet as a whole. The political climate created by the left. Lack of respect for others. Splintering family situations. Lack of respect for a higher power. Zero respect for authority.
Just so many contributing factors.
Plus, some people are just simply evil.

There is that...

(08-04-2019 08:12 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 06:42 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  

(08-04-2019 05:58 PM)450bench Wrote:  Devaluing human life. Social media. The internet as a whole. The political climate created by the left (and Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell and other Republicans). Lack of respect for others. Splintering family situations. Lack of respect for a higher power. Zero respect for authority.
Just so many contributing factors.
Plus, some people are just simply evil.

FIFY

No you didn't, you contributed to the problem.

When a democratic president took the White House, some people didn't like it, myself included. We were irritated. Stewed over it for a few days or maybe a week. Then, we accepted it. Sure we disagreed with his policies, ok, but he was still the president. You get over it.

The libs have changed that thought process to barbaric lows. You've exposed yourselves for the radicals you are. It's beyond just being crybabies. It's almost criminal what you've done and in some cases it is criminal. Truly criminal. You have divided the country. Yes, YOUR SIDE IS RESPONSIBLE.

God help us all when Trump beats your azz again in 2020.

There WILL be rioting in the streets.

(08-04-2019 06:24 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  Not enough is being said about how amazing the Dayton police were. The killer was armed with a 100 round drum and was neutralized by the police within "30 seconds" of shots fired. In that "30 seconds" he was able to kill 9 and wound 26.

I am a gun enthusiast and CCW holder, but I would like to know your thoughts on the continued legality of drum magazines.

I've never heard that drum magazines are legal. Can you post some sort of link to this? If they are, I'd have no problem with a ban on them. I don't think this would make any difference whatsoever to the issue as this is the first time I've ever heard of a mass shooter using one, plus the fact that such things are very easy to manufacture with simple tools.... but I'd be willing to give on this if I got almost anything in return.

(08-04-2019 08:12 PM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  Such as? You people are constantly harping on the need for new gun laws, ignoring that we already have laws on the books that people like these shooters ignore. For instance, it's against the law to murder. You harp on it without ever offering up anything that doesn't punish law abiding citizens while having no impact on the criminals who commit these acts.

I'd wonder what the left would say to something like a mandatory, zero tolerance, 50 year sentence with no parole or time off for good behavior for the possession of a firearm by a felon, regardless of their purpose.... same for possessing one where a death occurs, even if unrelated to the crime... say you rob a bank with a gun... even an unloaded one... cops show up and while shooting at you, kill a bystander. Something truly draconian, but specifically targeted at criminals using guns.

The left has correctly argued that such things are constitutionally questionable, but at least these are targeting criminals... as opposed to the current solutions that are similarly questionable, but target non-criminals.