Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Hardnett in the transfer portal
Author Message
Bookmark and Share
bearcatmark Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 18,648
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 320
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #61
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 12:49 PM)cinbinsportsfan Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 12:40 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 12:30 PM)levydl Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 11:35 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  However, as far as autobench, Mick was in a class few coaches are in. For example, using 2 fouls in the first half as the measure, Mick's players were 351 out of 353 in minutes played with 2 or more first half fouls. Just since you used Huggs as the comparison, Huggs' team was 148 in 2 foul participation.

I recall that Tony Bennett was one of the worst offenders as well. Beilein was another. It can be frustrating, and coaches should not be wedded to it, but it's not an unfounded strategy or the mark of a terrible coach.

It's bad strategy, but yes there are good coaches who still seem pretty wedded to it. It's one part of the game you are handicapping yourself with, particularly if its a key player. It doesn't come into play that often for many teams, but if it's a key player and a big drop off to the backup it can be killer. With Virginia the big advantage they had is the two guys that committed a lot of fouls were basically interchangeable big men (Huff/Salt) and neither were in their best 5 by the time the tournament came around. Virginia and Michigan are both near the bottom of the country in foul rate every year so that 2 foul participation issue doesn't end up hurting them that often even when there is a big dropoff, because its so rare.

With UC last year Maximizing Cumberland's minutes against a team like OSU was essential to winning that game. Him sitting 17 minutes in the first half was just brutal when he was the only returning major contributor in the first game, with no real backup.

A 4-point deficit became a quick 9 and pretty much stayed that way over the course of the game after Cumberland committed his 2nd foul of that first half.

Sending a message to foul-prone/younger players is one thing but doing so in a game where points are at a premium with a playmaking upperclassman who's fouled out all of TWO TIMES over the course of his career is simply stubbornness.

Context matters. I was guessing Houston had a very low 2 foul participation rate last year so I went and checked, and sure enough they did. I was guessing that just because they played 4 interchangeable big men who all fouled a ton and it really didn't make a difference who was on the floor. When that's the case, sure take a guy out with two fouls and bring in the other guy, but when when you're so married to it you put a worse team on the floor for long stretches of the game, hoping to save a guy for shorter stretches later in the game, that's awful strategy.
 
06-18-2019 12:55 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 18,648
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 320
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #62
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
Just as a note...here are the foul rates of the 4 guys Houston played at center (or PF when they weren't playing small).

Brady- 9.1 fouls per 40 minutes
White- 6.1 fouls per 40 minutes
Gresham- 8.2 Fouls per 40 minutes
Harris- 5.5 Fouls per 40 minutes

Holy hell.
 
06-18-2019 12:57 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
levydl Online
All American
*

Posts: 2,673
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation: 67
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #63
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 12:55 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Context matters. I was guessing Houston had a very low 2 foul participation rate last year so I went and checked, and sure enough they did. I was guessing that just because they played 4 interchangeable big men who all fouled a ton and it really didn't make a difference who was on the floor. When that's the case, sure take a guy out with two fouls and bring in the other guy, but when when you're so married to it you put a worse team on the floor for long stretches of the game, hoping to save a guy for shorter stretches later in the game, that's awful strategy.

Or it could be that Sampson just subscribes to the auto-bench. I would bet that a coach's ranking for that stat is pretty consistent year to year.

I don't think it's necessarily awful strategy. It's just very conservative. Some coaches--many of them among the best coaches in the game--would rather trade playing a worse lineup in the first half to lower the risk of having to play a worse lineup in the second half.
 
06-18-2019 03:09 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 18,648
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 320
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #64
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 03:09 PM)levydl Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 12:55 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  Context matters. I was guessing Houston had a very low 2 foul participation rate last year so I went and checked, and sure enough they did. I was guessing that just because they played 4 interchangeable big men who all fouled a ton and it really didn't make a difference who was on the floor. When that's the case, sure take a guy out with two fouls and bring in the other guy, but when when you're so married to it you put a worse team on the floor for long stretches of the game, hoping to save a guy for shorter stretches later in the game, that's awful strategy.

Or it could be that Sampson just subscribes to the auto-bench. I would bet that a coach's ranking for that stat is pretty consistent year to year.

I don't think it's necessarily awful strategy. It's just very conservative. Some coaches--many of them among the best coaches in the game--would rather trade playing a worse lineup in the first half to lower the risk of having to play a worse lineup in the second half.

Houston was 52 two seasons ago in two foul participation when they weren't consistently playing high foul, interchangeable big men. They dropped to 215 the next year when they had largely interchangeable big men and jumped up considerably this year when they had incredibly foul prone, interchangeable big men.

I get the "logic" between the autobench, but it's bad strategy. Unless it's a particularly foul prone player it's rarely an either or scenario (first half minutes vs. second half minutes). You are sacrificing minutes for key players on the tiny chance they might foul out.
 
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2019 03:37 PM by bearcatmark.)
06-18-2019 03:36 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatmark Offline
Moderator
*

Posts: 18,648
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 320
I Root For: the Deliverator
Location:
Post: #65
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
BTW it's great when you go to look up these kind of stats and they line up with what you thought they would say based on what you were seeing on the basketball court.
 
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2019 03:40 PM by bearcatmark.)
06-18-2019 03:39 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Bearcats#1 Offline
Decider of UCONN's Replacement
*

Posts: 46,153
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 1213
I Root For: Dairy Whip
Location: In your head.
Post: #66
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW it's great when you go to look up these kind of stats and they line up with what you thought they would say based on what you were seeing on the basketball court.

braggard
 
06-18-2019 05:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
rtaylor Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,495
Joined: Feb 2014
Reputation: 168
I Root For: Bearcats
Location:
Post: #67
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW it's great when you go to look up these kind of stats and they line up with what you thought they would say based on what you were seeing on the basketball court.

Nerd.
 
06-18-2019 05:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gerhard911 Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 934
Joined: Nov 2011
Reputation: 45
I Root For: Bearcats!
Location:
Post: #68
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 05:55 PM)rtaylor Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW it's great when you go to look up these kind of stats and they line up with what you thought they would say based on what you were seeing on the basketball court.

Nerd.

^^^ This! But Mark amazes me with the stats he comes up with. I don't always agree with his analysis or conclusions but his ability to dig this stuff up is impressive.
 
06-18-2019 06:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
natibeast21 Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,045
Joined: Nov 2010
Reputation: 8
I Root For: Cincy and OSU
Location:
Post: #69
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 03:39 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  BTW it's great when you go to look up these kind of stats and they line up with what you thought they would say based on what you were seeing on the basketball court.

Shed
 
06-18-2019 06:38 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UCGrad1992 Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 16,742
Joined: Sep 2013
Reputation: 963
I Root For: Cincy Bearcats
Location: North Carolina
Post: #70
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 11:35 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(06-18-2019 11:19 AM)bearcat_df Wrote:  
(06-17-2019 07:18 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  I can't guarantee it but do you know of any coach that practiced the auto-bench like Mick did?

Coach Huggins. I remember one game when James White made a mistake on the defensive end. As he runs by the UC bench he sees Huggs getting his replacement off the bench. White calls for the ball and drives straight to the basket. He made the bucket.

If we're talking benching players for mistakes to send a message, every coach will do it from time to time. However, as far as autobench, Mick was in a class few coaches are in. For example, using 2 fouls in the first half as the measure, Mick's players were 351 out of 353 in minutes played with 2 or more first half fouls. Just since you used Huggs as the comparison, Huggs' team was 148 in 2 foul participation.

I used the term "auto-bench" in both contexts. I have no problem with a coach sending a message from time to time to get the point across but Mick did it on such a micro-managing level that I believe it had a diminishing returns effect. Guys just tuned him out when he screamed and carried on in their faces while they sat. Meanwhile, that player was not on the floor to help run the offense or to put the ball in the bucket. Oh wait, put in SO-SOeme to dive on the floor or pick up a cheap foul! Hustle baby! Hustle!
 
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2019 07:08 PM by UCGrad1992.)
06-18-2019 06:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robertfoshizzle Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,247
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 128
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location: Columbus
Post: #71
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
It's one thing to send a message -- it's another to lose a game because of being stubborn. That OSU game was a perfect example of principled, stubborn Mick at his worst.
 
06-18-2019 11:15 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robertfoshizzle Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,247
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 128
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location: Columbus
Post: #72
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
Also, sounds like Q is getting interest from some decent programs. Based on that, I highly doubt Brannen asked him to leave. There were rumors a month ago that he might transfer.
 
06-18-2019 11:32 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JPBearcat3 Offline
we'll do the rest, boys
*

Posts: 2,381
Joined: Nov 2005
Reputation: 23
I Root For: #BearcatNation
Location: Western Hills, OH
Post: #73
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-18-2019 11:32 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  Also, sounds like Q is getting interest from some decent programs. Based on that, I highly doubt Brannen asked him to leave. There were rumors a month ago that he might transfer.

He might have gone back and forth a month ago, but the timing, now, is too convenient. Do you think if Harvey wasn't in the fold that Hardnett would be in the portal right now?
 
06-19-2019 06:45 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bearcatlawjd2 Online
All American
*

Posts: 3,050
Joined: Apr 2012
Reputation: 53
I Root For: UC
Location:
Post: #74
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
Maybe he is a good player but a bad fit for the new system.
 
06-19-2019 06:52 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BearcatMan Online
Kicking Connoisseur/Occasional Man Crush
*

Posts: 14,131
Joined: Jan 2009
Reputation: 203
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #75
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
According to an un-verified account, he has received communication from Buffalo, George Washington, Michigan, and St. Bonaventure.
 
06-19-2019 07:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
UCbball21 Offline
All American
*

Posts: 3,249
Joined: Apr 2006
Reputation: 50
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #76
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
I don't necessarily think Hardnett was a bad fit for the system, but I do think he was the least likely to contribute on the roster. Assuming Zach Harvey commits, I can live with him transferring. Harvey would be a great momentum boost to recruiting in general.
 
06-19-2019 08:49 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dsquare Online
1st String
*

Posts: 1,892
Joined: Aug 2016
Reputation: 33
I Root For: Cincy
Location:
Post: #77
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
Look they've added two guys who were likely going to challenge him for playing time recently in Davenport and Jav. Cumberland. I think Brannen is very high on Davenport, but prior to that without those two and not being sure if Jarron was returning Hardnett would likely have had to play minutes at the 2 and 3. He's not a front court player so with the adds it definitely cut into his expectations to get significant minutes. That's not counting if Adams-Woods is able to contribute year 1 either. My guess is this will be a 3 guard lineup in large part next year for a lot of minutes. If Brannen had struggled to add guys, he was looking at likely playing quite a bit. aka Mick's first year situation.
 
06-19-2019 09:16 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
robertfoshizzle Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,247
Joined: Oct 2014
Reputation: 128
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location: Columbus
Post: #78
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
I'm just happy we aren't going into 2019-20 with a decimated roster. We managed to hold on to 3 of our top 4 returning players, picked up three grad transfers who will contribute, and have some nice recruits coming in. The roster is in pretty good shape considering the late coaching change.
 
06-19-2019 09:24 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RealDeal Online
Heisman
*

Posts: 6,159
Joined: Jul 2004
Reputation: 45
I Root For: UC
Location: Cincinnati
Post: #79
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
(06-19-2019 09:24 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  I'm just happy we aren't going into 2019-20 with a decimated roster. We managed to hold on to 3 of our top 4 returning players, picked up three grad transfers who will contribute, and have some nice recruits coming in. The roster is in pretty good shape considering the late coaching change.

If we get Zach Harvey then it's safe to say we've got a better roster than we would have had under the old staff. May not perform as well since most of these guys have not played together but we're going to be much better in 2020 than we would have been otherwise. Assuming Harvey plays like a top 50 recruit we have a go to guy in 2020 who will have a year under his belt. With Jarron being the last difference maker recruited under the previous staff we were going to need immediate impact guys for 2020which that staff had not recruited for awhile.
 
06-19-2019 09:37 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
skyblade Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,111
Joined: Oct 2009
Reputation: 32
I Root For: Cincinnati
Location:
Post: #80
RE: Hardnett in the transfer portal
The thing about Hardnett was he was one of the 4 true bigs on the roster (along with Scott, Diarra and Sorolla), losing him means we are going to have to play small a significant amount of the time. Maybe Brannen was planning that anyway, but it seems like it would have been nice to have Hardnett and the option to stay big with backups if we needed to.

The 2019-2020 roster is looking very good on paper. The loss of Brooks still hurts, but we kept all the other big pieces and brought in some talent. I'm not sure we are better than what we would have had under the old staff (I'm concerned about our center position and lack of size), but we should at least should be close to the same level. Now we get to see how well Brannen can develop the players and gets them to work together.

This year seems very important for Brannen. The 2020-21 roster is going to be very young (barring grad transfers). If we can put together a nice season (~30 wins), it should help carry Brannen through a down year or two as our youth develops.
 
06-19-2019 10:40 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2019 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2019 MyBB Group.