(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

I agree he hasn't shown any indication of getting us where we want to be. That number is just based on my personal belief that anybody, including AnybodyButBailiif, deserves a fair chance, and to me that fair chance is three years.

heck RU, I'd give you three years, but my expectations of you would be much higher.

(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

What kind of motivational techniques do you think work at Rice that don’t work at other programs?

I haven’t thought much of Bloomgren so far from a Xs and Os perspective but I do think he’s on the right track in the sense that we need to be a far tougher team, both mentally and physically.

I’ve already seen progress on the physical front. We seem to have far fewer injuries this year (and the ones we’ve had appear to be legitimate ones) and IMO, we look much more physically conditioned than the teams in the latter Bailiff years.

On the mental front, I think it’s been a mixed bag. I like what I see from the freshman but the other classes are iffy and case-by-case. I think the attrition that we’re seeing is from guys who 1) have been beaten out or 2) don’t want the time commitment that Bloomgren is demanding.

(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

I'd like you to elaborate on that, too.

(11-21-2018 12:16 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

I agree he hasn't shown any indication of getting us where we want to be. That number is just based on my personal belief that anybody, including AnybodyButBailiif, deserves a fair chance, and to me that fair chance is three years.

heck RU, I'd give you three years, but my expectations of you would be much higher.

I wouldn't go 1-12.

(11-21-2018 12:30 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

What kind of motivational techniques do you think work at Rice that don’t work at other programs?

I haven’t thought much of Bloomgren so far from a Xs and Os perspective but I do think he’s on the right track in the sense that we need to be a far tougher team, both mentally and physically.

I’ve already seen progress on the physical front. We seem to have far fewer injuries this year (and the ones we’ve had appear to be legitimate ones) and IMO, we look much more physically conditioned than the teams in the latter Bailiff years.

On the mental front, I think it’s been a mixed bag. I like what I see from the freshman but the other classes are iffy and case-by-case. I think the attrition that we’re seeing is from guys who 1) have been beaten out or 2) don’t want the time commitment that Bloomgren is demanding.

And on the mental front, this kind of touches on his quote. The thing he highlighted is that it seems like the middle 3 classes are so conditioned to losing in spectacular ways that they "wait for the other shoe to drop."

Losing can be contagious and I do think that saying this out loud, that the players need to get that thought out of their head, is beneficial. And he needs to make sure his players have that mental toughness to make a mistake and bounce back. The players who will do that are the same players who will hear what he said and bounce back.

But I do think he needs to find a way to at least show those players he has confidence in them to move past that for any progress to be made.

(11-21-2018 01:37 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 12:30 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 12:12 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 11:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 04:07 AM)ruowls Wrote:  I honestly don’t see what some see that indicates that he is the answer. He uses cliches often. Defines his approach in the abstract. Says 60% of the team is a head case. Says his process will work this week and yet a month or so ago says he tried all he knew what to do. It must have been the head cases. All we need is more process, bring in better talent, and supratentoral tweaking. Got it.

Looks to me like those who wanted AnybodyButBailiff got exactly what they wanted. He is indeed Anybody.

After three games I thought we had gotten exactly what I wanted. I no longer think that. He has two more years to change my mind. W's will do that, starting this week.

He has shown nothing to make me believe that he deserves 2 more seasons. That press conference demonstrated that he does not, and will not, recognize that "typical" motivational techniques won't work at Rice in the same way they work in other programs.

What kind of motivational techniques do you think work at Rice that don’t work at other programs?

I haven’t thought much of Bloomgren so far from a Xs and Os perspective but I do think he’s on the right track in the sense that we need to be a far tougher team, both mentally and physically.

I’ve already seen progress on the physical front. We seem to have far fewer injuries this year (and the ones we’ve had appear to be legitimate ones) and IMO, we look much more physically conditioned than the teams in the latter Bailiff years.

On the mental front, I think it’s been a mixed bag. I like what I see from the freshman but the other classes are iffy and case-by-case. I think the attrition that we’re seeing is from guys who 1) have been beaten out or 2) don’t want the time commitment that Bloomgren is demanding.

And on the mental front, this kind of touches on his quote. The thing he highlighted is that it seems like the middle 3 classes are so conditioned to losing in spectacular ways that they "wait for the other shoe to drop."

Losing can be contagious and I do think that saying this out loud, that the players need to get that thought out of their head, is beneficial. And he needs to make sure his players have that mental toughness to make a mistake and bounce back. The players who will do that are the same players who will hear what he said and bounce back.

But I do think he needs to find a way to at least show those players he has confidence in them to move past that for any progress to be made.

Don't disagree as to substance. Nor do I disagree that it may very well have to have been said.

Disagree completely as to form. Bloomgren should have made this an internal matter. He probably should have *never* aired it to the outside.

He may very well needed to 'say this out loud'. Perhaps to individuals, perhaps to groups, perhaps to the team as a whole. There is very close zero added upside to 'saying this out loud' to the public as a whole.

Well, from having been there.....

Nah. Don't buy it.
If you had been a winner before, as a player, you have a good idea what it will take. It can be frustrating being asked to do things that you know don't matter. Or worse, that you know won't work. Many Rice players are thinkers. They aren't going to blindly trust every utterance. Nor are they going to buy into a process that is not getting results. What you are seeing is a power struggle between free thinking players and an unyielding coach. A player can see the futility of running up the middle time and again. It may be a means of Intellectual Brutality but the results aren't there. It is like telling them to do it just because I said so. Why? How is this helping us win games? Rice is one loss away from going winless in CUSA. WINLESS. How exactly is this process bringing success? Oklahomas in practices don't make you a winner. Competition in practice to see who runs a crappy process best and will play is not a process of success. Individulizing the talents players have and teaching them how to augment them to be competitive will change the culture. Treating them as a real person with strengths and weaknesses will do wonders. Be honest and realistic. Don't tell them they are a bunch of head cases and tolerate losing and that the coaches just need to bring in more talent. What they are done tolerating is the empty promises of a process that will bring success that obviously is not.

Did anyone else get the feeling that Bloomgren's facial expressions and body language were saying something like, "This isn't going how I expected, and I don't know what to do about it."

(11-21-2018 01:44 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Don't disagree as to substance. Nor do I disagree that it may very well have to have been said.
Disagree completely as to form. Bloomgren should have made this an internal matter. He probably should have *never* aired it to the outside.
He may very well needed to 'say this out loud'. Perhaps to individuals, perhaps to groups, perhaps to the team as a whole. There is very close zero added upside to 'saying this out loud' to the public as a whole.

Praise in public, criticize in private.

(11-21-2018 02:13 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Well, from having been there.....

Nah. Don't buy it.
If you had been a winner before, as a player, you have a good idea what it will take. It can be frustrating being asked to do things that you know don't matter. Or worse, that you know won't work. Many Rice players are thinkers. They aren't going to blindly trust every utterance. Nor are they going to buy into a process that is not getting results. What you are seeing is a power struggle between free thinking players and an unyielding coach. A player can see the futility of running up the middle time and again. It may be a means of Intellectual Brutality but the results aren't there. It is like telling them to do it just because I said so. Why? How is this helping us win games? Rice is one loss away from going winless in CUSA. WINLESS. How exactly is this process bringing success? Oklahomas in practices don't make you a winner. Competition in practice to see who runs a crappy process best and will play is not a process of success. Individulizing the talents players have and teaching them how to augment them to be competitive will change the culture. Treating them as a real person with strengths and weaknesses will do wonders. Be honest and realistic. Don't tell them they are a bunch of head cases and tolerate losing and that the coaches just need to bring in more talent. What they are done tolerating is the empty promises of a process that will bring success that obviously is not.

This

Managing a program like this is no different from managing any other group of 20 somethings. What you're doing, what you value etc etc of course is different, but unless you're already a legend (OG or Saban) then you don't get the leeway when things don't go well that those guys would.... and obviously even those guys have limited leeway. You can tell someone to 'trust me/the process' only so long. You're going to have some trouble makers that will be massive time sucks... this is where coaches have it BETTER than many employers. Unless they're your best player (the DL at UH or Manziel?) then they don't HAVE to even keep you on the team.

(11-21-2018 02:13 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Well, from having been there.....
Nah. Don't buy it.
If you had been a winner before, as a player, you have a good idea what it will take. It can be frustrating being asked to do things that you know don't matter. Or worse, that you know won't work. Many Rice players are thinkers. They aren't going to blindly trust every utterance. Nor are they going to buy into a process that is not getting results. What you are seeing is a power struggle between free thinking players and an unyielding coach. A player can see the futility of running up the middle time and again. It may be a means of Intellectual Brutality but the results aren't there. It is like telling them to do it just because I said so. Why? How is this helping us win games? Rice is one loss away from going winless in CUSA. WINLESS. How exactly is this process bringing success? Oklahomas in practices don't make you a winner. Competition in practice to see who runs a crappy process best and will play is not a process of success. Individulizing the talents players have and teaching them how to augment them to be competitive will change the culture. Treating them as a real person with strengths and weaknesses will do wonders. Be honest and realistic. Don't tell them they are a bunch of head cases and tolerate losing and that the coaches just need to bring in more talent. What they are done tolerating is the empty promises of a process that will bring success that obviously is not.

I thought something similar to this about Bailiff's teams. The players had been winners in HS and had some idea what it takes to win. I think they didn't buy into a lot of things because they didn't think they would work. And when you don't get buy-in, you get sloppy execution.

Bailiff seemed to have a good relationship with the players, and I think he treated them well and with respect. But the part about individualizing the talents of his players and teaching them how to augment them never seemed to happen. It was square peg into round hole.

It appeared to me that they needed less of a country club approach, more physicality and discipline, and also a system that was tweaked to their abilities rather than forcing them into system slots for which they may not have been well adapted. I think Bloomgren has added more physicality and discipline, but is still trying to force square pegs into round holes. For whatever reason, I just don't think the players are completely sold on what he is asking them to do.

I'm reading a book by Michael Lombardi that is largely a tribute to Bill Belichick, and secondarily to Bill Walsh. He responds to the question about why other coaches have not been as successful implementing their systems as they were, and his answer is that the two Bills were better teachers. RU, I think your biggest asset as a coach would be your ability to teach. I'm not sure that's happening right now with Bloomgren and his staff.

(11-21-2018 03:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Did anyone else get the feeling that Bloomgren's facial expressions and body language were saying something like, "This isn't going how I expected, and I don't know what to do about it."

Yes. I think the, "This isn't going how I expected" is right. I am sure he is exasperated that his process isn't universally praised and yielding the results he wants.

This brings up an interesting conundrum. It is obvious that many associated with Rice football consider this to be the best process to restore gridiron glory. When do you reach the point that you know it isn't? How long do you cling to the process? What if you based your process on flawed assumptions? It seems to me it will never work.

(11-21-2018 03:55 PM)ruowls Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 03:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Did anyone else get the feeling that Bloomgren's facial expressions and body language were saying something like, "This isn't going how I expected, and I don't know what to do about it."

Yes. I think the, "This isn't going how I expected" is right. I am sure he is exasperated that his process isn't universally praised and yielding the results he wants.

This brings up an interesting conundrum. It is obvious that many associated with Rice football consider this to be the best process to restore gridiron glory. When do you reach the point that you know it isn't? How long do you cling to the process? What if you based your process on flawed assumptions? It seems to me it will never work.

Actually, Bloom has said exactly that on at least 2 occasions....saying things at pressers like "I've tried everything I can think of." Which just seems weird given that we've seemingly repeated the same basic plan with only slight modifications. I hope there's more to what he said then the obvious, litteral interpretation. Maybe he was just alluding to personnel configurations?

(11-21-2018 03:55 PM)ruowls Wrote:  .

This brings up an interesting conundrum. It is obvious that many associated with Rice football consider this to be the best process to restore gridiron glory. When do you reach the point that you know it isn't? How long do you cling to the process? What if you based your process on flawed assumptions? It seems to me it will never work.

A lot of people think we just need to unplug the bad parts (Bailiff + staff) and put in new ones. I have been leery of this process all along - sometimes it works, but usually not.

Maybe the people who want to fire Leebron, the BoT, and half the professors are right. Off with their heads!!!

Going back to the Mensa as OC days, I felt that we were trying way too hard to fit square pegs into the round holes that were required for the schemes he insisted upon using. When people were praising Mensa after 2008, I wasn't sure whether it was Mensa or Bailiff driving the square pegs into round holes process on offense. Well, Mensa left 10 years ago, and it's pretty obvious that Bailiff never changed and Mensa changed a lot. Go no further than how much Sam Ehlinger is allowed to run, even has plays called for him to run, versus the way they tried to chain Chase into the pocket.

I don't think Rice can recruit the people necessary to run Bloomgren's "pound the rock" offense. Stanford could, but Stanford is P5, it's the most academically elite FBS school west of the continental divide, it's the most academically elite P5 school west of the Mississippi, and it has and spends a lot of money for athletics. That means it has a huge and populous primary recruiting area almost to itself, and plenty of resources to go after it. We don't. Stanford can get lots of people that we are always going to lose to P5 schools.

So whom can we recruit? I see the following as possibilities:
- Fullbacks and tight ends, who are not used a lot in spread passing systems;
- Running QBs, the kind that Texas says, "come here and we'll make you a safety," but who want to play QB;
- Smaller and quicker linemen, the kind who often can play on either side of the ball;
- Good football players, who may not have all the measureables, but who are winners with good grades;
- Instead of specialists, athletes who can play on either side of the ball;
- Recruit a kicker or punter every year, so you always have at least 2 of each for competition and backup.

I think we can build a competitive team with those players. Emphasize speed on defense, and run some kind of quirky offense that is hard to prepare for in a week. I kind of like the 3-3-5/3-5-3 defensively, because you can get more speed on the field. Offensively, I'd like to see us combine an option running game (instead of power) with RUowls's west coast passing game.

(11-21-2018 04:37 PM)NYNightOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 03:55 PM)ruowls Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 03:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Did anyone else get the feeling that Bloomgren's facial expressions and body language were saying something like, "This isn't going how I expected, and I don't know what to do about it."

Yes. I think the, "This isn't going how I expected" is right. I am sure he is exasperated that his process isn't universally praised and yielding the results he wants.

This brings up an interesting conundrum. It is obvious that many associated with Rice football consider this to be the best process to restore gridiron glory. When do you reach the point that you know it isn't? How long do you cling to the process? What if you based your process on flawed assumptions? It seems to me it will never work.

Actually, Bloom has said exactly that on at least 2 occasions....saying things at pressers like "I've tried everything I can think of." Which just seems weird given that we've seemingly repeated the same basic plan with only slight modifications. I hope there's more to what he said then the obvious, litteral interpretation. Maybe he was just alluding to personnel configurations?

on 10/7 I was actually the first to comment on that interesting choice of words

(11-21-2018 05:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-21-2018 03:55 PM)ruowls Wrote:  .

This brings up an interesting conundrum. It is obvious that many associated with Rice football consider this to be the best process to restore gridiron glory. When do you reach the point that you know it isn't? How long do you cling to the process? What if you based your process on flawed assumptions? It seems to me it will never work.

A lot of people think we just need to unplug the bad parts (Bailiff + staff) and put in new ones. I have been leery of this process all along - sometimes it works, but usually not.

Maybe the people who want to fire Leebron, the BoT, and half the professors are right. Off with their heads!!!

I was referring to when do you jettison a process? It may or may not include supratentoral separation.

Some very thoughtful commentary above recognizing that in HS, these kids were winners. Their teams won championships, they were leaders on and off the field, their teams often beat bigger/better opponents with several 5 star recruits. Would agree that losing can be a habit but there was just too much progress at the beginning of this season not to believe that the kids did try to hit the reset button and "bought in" during off season, worked even harder to be ready for 2018 season. There's been too much fight in many of the games that would indicate these kids have not accepted defeat. What I think Bloom doesn't seem to get is that the Rice kids do have a lot of smarts, heart, work ethic and competitive spirit. Most of them are not the tallest or the fastest so they've had to rely on other attributes. I'd go so far as to say that sometimes those that are physically more gifted are often lacking in these other qualities and to pass too quick a judgement on ability just based on stats at the C-USA level is the mark of an inexperienced coach. The conditioning and physicality has improved so obviously the new Strength Coach was a good hire by Bloom and he's done his job. These kids are very smart and it's gotta be hard to keep buying in to continued stubbornness, lousy play calling and the supposed "meritocracy" that has obviously become all about the Bloom recruits. Surprised more haven't quit and wouldn't be surprised if more did just that when the season is over. Because these kids are smart, they may be recognizing that no matter what they do, that they will never measure up and why continue the insanity that's Rice football? If you're a TE or receiver that showed out in the spring game, fall game and first three games of the season and then, hardly saw a touch again, would you be inclined to come back for more? Perhaps, that's what Bloom wants so he can say that those kids were "losers" if they quit the team and then, have more scholarships for his recruits. Other than Calderon, haven't been overly impressed with any freshman or new recruits that were so hyped in media and the Roost early on. There were a couple of good plays called for some of the young receivers in the middle of the season and they looked like superstars when they made a 5 yard catch or got a first down. But since they haven't been seen again, would assume intellectual brutality wasn't working so well for them? More to the point, why weren't these same successful plays called for that position utilizing other players who seemed to be plenty capable as evidenced by afore mentioned play in pre season and early season? Nope, let's just keep pounding the rock. Not knowledgable about the O-Line but sure didn't notice that the Freshman there were any better based on the sacks the QB's received. What I did notice was that the QB often wastes time on balls that are hiked too high
It's great to see Calderon's play and improvement on D and he deserves a mention in Bloom's presser. However, no matter how good they are, Freshman are not going to be leaders on this team of kids who have been buying in and stayed the course loss after loss, year after year. Putting undue emphasis on the newbies shows Bloom's inexperience as a head coach. Saying it's a "meritocracy" and playing Freshman who aren't any more athletic or better(perhaps, with the exception of Calderon) and who haven't earned their spot, is a good way to un-do any buy-in.

I have pretty much always felt that one of the dumbest things a coach can do is to give up on a player. Everyone who is good enough to get a scolarship has some useful skills. Find a way to use them. If they don't fit the slot you are trying to force them into, find something else. Move them somewhere else or tweak your system to utilize them. They are the players you have to work with. Maybe you want someone who is 2 inches taller, 40 pounds heavier, and runs a 0.2 faster 40. You don't have him. Figure out how to make it work with what you have. If you can't do that, then you probably are not the right coach for Rice.

(11-20-2018 11:59 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(11-20-2018 11:14 PM)Papa_Owl Wrote:  

(11-20-2018 10:57 PM)Hank16 Wrote:  

(11-20-2018 09:24 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-20-2018 01:36 PM)RiceOL83 Wrote:  Just heard the presser. Sure am glad I’m not in one of the middle three classes at Rice football right now. Bloomgren just basically called them all losers. Gotta love the faith in the guys on the roster.

On your comment I too watched the press conference. I was ready to jump all over your comment on how you might have misheard that. But, I have to agree. I absolutely cringed when I heard him diss pretty much everyone but the seniors and freshmen for their attitude on getting over the hump.

Wife called me in that dinner was ready as that comment ended (heh.... Chinese delivery, we are quite the chefs tonite...) so I still need to finish watching.

But that comment did make me seriously wince.

can you pass along the link?

Was able to hunt this down. Link to ODU pre-game presser.

https://youtu.be/XAmhNiyzpUg

It's at the 22 minute mark for those interested.

Thanks for the link!