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(10-03-2018 01:36 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-03-2018 01:08 PM)Sup Wrote:  

(10-03-2018 11:15 AM)brovol Wrote:  Personally, I think that if the teams from our last couple years in the CCHA played the teams we had most years in the NCHC, the CCHA teams would win more than they lost. And frankly I don't care how many of our players end up in the NHL. I care how they do at WMU,and how the team does. I loved going to the Joe to watch us in the CCHA final four. Exciting stuff. That's what happens when you are competitive in a conference. Its fun, and school spirit rules for fans and players alike. When our football team went to the MACC at ford field, that was super fun stuff for all of us. I took my family and could not have had more fun if we were in the B10 championship game. Same with hockey. But when we are having just a 500 or less year, and finishing in the middle or bottom of the league standings, the enthusiasm is lost.

I don't necessarily agree that playing better teams every week makes us better. If you are not beating those teams it becomes counterproductive, as the team chemistry suffers. I get the idea that being in a better conference should ultimately raise the quality of the program; but tell that to the Kansas football team, or Vanderbilt, or Illinois. It becomes tough to drag yourself our of a bad situation sometimes. And then if you can, you then need to maintain that high level while competing against programs that are ten steps ahead of you in terms of facilities, history, fan base, capitol, etc. It aint easy keeping up with the Jones'. In every league there will always be the "haves" and the "have-nots". If you start a league with ten "haves", a portion of them will ultimately end up as "have-nots". To avoid that you better have the resources and commitment from the beginning, and enough to keep up and maintain at the same level as the top dogs in that league. Otherwise you become the Kansas football team, or one of several other examples in every conference anywhere.

We were in third last year before the injuries and finished in third the year before and will be in 3rd or 4th this year and could be 2nd 3rd if our goaltenders can just be average . You don't care about the NHL draft fine but the program sure the heck does . If you have top end drafted players it attracks top end talent and they sure the heck use that in there recruiting . It also helps in the funding of the team College hockey today vs 5-10 years ago is on a different level due to the explosion of hockey in the USA and the fact more high end EURO's are coming over . Thinking the old CCHA teams would beat the NCHC teams of today is just wrong their debth of players is not even close . And the amount of top end players is not close either and i'm talking about the whole NCHC not just us .

Huh? Say you aren't a WMU alumni, please.

Rather than argue with this, I will simply say I believe my prior comments are valid. That will save me from making the mistake of getting into a dialog which will turn into something less about hockey, and more about grammar, sentence construction and syntax. Too often I find myself unable to stay in check, and I end up with a post loaded with sarcasm or backhanded insults. For some reason I suspect this could get that way. Instead, I will suggest that the substance of your points regarding hockey is every bit as excellent as the presentation of your argument.

Really , i mean really you are my English teacher , i didn't know my paper was being graded . OMG As far as the hockey thing goes any thing you want to debate i'm fine with .
The rest bud , you barking up the wrong tree i'm not getting involved with the long winded crap you have been arguing about for the last 4 years . The CCHA was better the CCHA was best the CCHA is where we should still be blah blah blah . The same thing year after year , find a new bone to pick please . Was my grammar better or worser Mr Park { my old english teacher }

Can we please not get into a CCHA vs WCHA vs NCHC discussion for once?

(10-03-2018 02:06 PM)flushtheherd Wrote:  

(10-03-2018 01:39 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-03-2018 01:33 PM)DrDavis Wrote:  The grass is not always greener. Andy Murray is a fine head coach.

On a related topic, is there a specific incident that got Bill Wilkinson bounced?

Did BW get bounced or leave on his own? I do remember that a few years after he left he took a HC job at Wayne State.
.

I think he got bounced following a season where there was some off the ice issues with team members... including his son if I do recall... And I am not sure it was bounced or that WMU didn't re-up his contract.. and went with Culhane. Don't know the specifics...

That was the case, I don't remember the specifics. Wilkie took us to another level, I'll grant him that much. But we regressed under Culhane.

I've conceded Murray is a very intelligent Hockey coach, but at the end of the day you have to have some solid wins to show for it. We just are not at the level of UND, SCSU, UMD and the like. We play them competitively once in awhile, occasionally steal a win, but when the rubber meets the road in the tourney we're just not getting the job done. WHEN we get to the tourney.

Any thoughts on sheet size? Seems like whenever we go somewhere with an Olympic rink we get owned. Still have no idea how that’s even allowed in the NCAA to have different ice surface sizes. It would be like Waldo being a Canadian sized football field...

It would be cool if WMU would host an invitational tourney early season or around the holidays. Play at Van Andel and invite 3 other solid teams. Since we don’t get invited to GLI often this could take its place.

(10-03-2018 04:12 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Can we please not get into a CCHA vs WCHA vs NCHC discussion for once?

This. It's like politics, you ain't convincing anyone who's not already on your side that your opinion is correct

We typically get owned on Olympic size rinks for several reasons:
- The other team practices on it daily and we don't.
- The other team has strategies and plays specifically for the bigger ice.
- The other team for the most part builds their team around the ice size. Meaning smaller, faster and quicker players.
- WMU has traditionally had bigger guys and played a rougher less skilled game.

On a side note but related -
I have seen Murray change his strategy over the last several years. He is recruiting smaller more skilled players in order to compete with the way the game has evolved. Less holding, clutching, grabbing and big hits. Look at the difference in the size on the roster from this year to say 2014 and 2015.

I will say it again - Give Andy Murray credit. We are a hot goaltender away from having an epic year.

You know it's almost the start of Hockey Season when brovol and Sup start locking horns!

I can't wait!!

(10-04-2018 09:31 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  You know it's almost the start of Hockey Season when brovol and Sup start locking horns!

I can't wait!!

Oh, I think its less Sup than it is everyone else. Thats OK. Believe it or not, I really have tried to stifle myself on the hockey forum. I watch as much as I can, but try not to engage. Most here know where I stand, because my position hasn't changed since we switched to the NCHC. If anything, others have seen that we have struggled more than most expected in this conference, and a few are less inclined to laugh at what I preach now. But again, I've been trying not to do that as much.

Whether I like it or not, we are in this conference for the foreseeable future; or as long as we keep our hockey program (as some recall, one of my doomsday concerns was that the NCHC could lead to a decline in the enthusiasm for the hockey program, and it being potentially cut). And I do think that good years are very possible in the NCHC. We certainly could win the conference if we have a great year. Perhaps this season! The key to me is getting a spot in the NCAA. It means you likely had a solid regular season, and that you have as good a shot at a national championship as any of the other 15 teams.

(10-04-2018 12:02 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 09:31 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  You know it's almost the start of Hockey Season when brovol and Sup start locking horns!

I can't wait!!

Oh, I think its less Sup than it is everyone else. Thats OK. Believe it or not, I really have tried to stifle myself on the hockey forum. I watch as much as I can, but try not to engage. Most here know where I stand, because my position hasn't changed since we switched to the NCHC. If anything, others have seen that we have struggled more than most expected in this conference, and a few are less inclined to laugh at what I preach now. But again, I've been trying not to do that as much.

Whether I like it or not, we are in this conference for the foreseeable future; or as long as we keep our hockey program (as some recall, one of my doomsday concerns was that the NCHC could lead to a decline in the enthusiasm for the hockey program, and it being potentially cut). And I do think that good years are very possible in the NCHC. We certainly could win the conference if we have a great year. Perhaps this season! The key to me is getting a spot in the NCAA. It means you likely had a solid regular season, and that you have as good a shot at a national championship as any of the other 15 teams.

Honestly if we finish in the top 3 or 4 in the NCHC we likely get a nod for an NCAA bid due to our Sos. We need to make sure to not crap the bed out of conference.

(10-04-2018 12:02 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 09:31 AM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  You know it's almost the start of Hockey Season when brovol and Sup start locking horns!

I can't wait!!

Oh, I think its less Sup than it is everyone else. Thats OK. Believe it or not, I really have tried to stifle myself on the hockey forum. I watch as much as I can, but try not to engage. Most here know where I stand, because my position hasn't changed since we switched to the NCHC. If anything, others have seen that we have struggled more than most expected in this conference, and a few are less inclined to laugh at what I preach now. But again, I've been trying not to do that as much.

Whether I like it or not, we are in this conference for the foreseeable future; or as long as we keep our hockey program (as some recall, one of my doomsday concerns was that the NCHC could lead to a decline in the enthusiasm for the hockey program, and it being potentially cut). And I do think that good years are very possible in the NCHC. We certainly could win the conference if we have a great year. Perhaps this season! The key to me is getting a spot in the NCAA. It means you likely had a solid regular season, and that you have as good a shot at a national championship as any of the other 15 teams.

To be honest, I enjoy the arguments between you two. It's like one of those 'hardy perennials' as we call them at work, issues that keep coming back regularly and on schedule. Kind of like a harbinger of WMU hockey season. Keep at it!

All arguments aside, if the goal tending can be just average you guys on here are going to be impressed with this years team . We are going to have two lines that can score and i have been told two of our new D man who came in are a step up from the D we lost already , more mobile and better first pass . Front two lines Conrad Allison Cotter , Reuschhoff McGing Dipietro , those two lines are going to be able to score but i also heard Allison is not right yet but coming along . I'm not sure which goalie is going to start but i can imagine who ever it is is going to have a short leash , this is where the wild card remains .
St Cloud and Minn Duluth are going to be tuff but i predict we will split 2 and 2 with both . CC will be better but can not hang with us if we are healthy , one scoring line but good goalie . Denver lost it's starting goalie to injury for unforeseen future and most of it's offence they will not be what some people think. UND is going to be young this year on talent and i do not see them causing us much trouble 3 wins 1 loss at worse . Miami is just bad and Omaha is just above bad . If we can stay healthy we can battle for 2nd in this league and an tournament bid as #2 seed . Book it Dano !!!

People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

Yes, every thread devolves into that.

Even during the season.

When we win, it's 'told you we can compete in the NCHC.'

When we lose, it's 'told you the NCHC is too hard.'

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

You may want to step back and take a season by season review of the years since we started in the NCHC. When you are done, and after comparing those years to the last few in the CCHA ( when our program was on a big time high, and climbing), I think instead you may wonder why anyone is arguing to stay in the NCHC. My points six years ago look clairvoyant in hindsight.

But keep beating your head against a wall.

(10-04-2018 06:18 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

Yes, every thread devolves into that.

Even during the season.

When we win, it's 'told you we can compete in the NCHC.'

When we lose, it's 'told you the NCHC is too hard.'

The last few years I have taken a fairly low profile on the hockey forum. Some exceptions, but that was mostly the single year we were pretty competitive in the NCHC, and several folks wanted to call me out, as if the previous four years didn't count. So I responded. The reality is that the concerns I expressed when we got into the league have proved exactly accurate. But instead of owning that, those who argue with my points claim the problem is incompetent coaching from the two time NHL coach of the year, who when we were in the CCHA let the team to a conference title and an NCAA birth.

But whatever.....

(10-05-2018 07:01 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

You may want to step back and take a season by season review of the years since we started in the NCHC. When you are done, and after comparing those years to the last few in the CCHA ( when our program was on a big time high, and climbing), I think instead you may wonder why anyone is arguing to stay in the NCHC. My points six years ago look clairvoyant in hindsight.

But keep beating your head against a wall.

Why would we compare anything to the CCHA years? The CCHA wasn't an option. Do I wish we were still in that conference???? HELL YES! But it's gone, and the new WCHA does not equal the CCHA.

Let's look at a team like BG who has drastically improved their overall record since joining the WCHA but has not yet made a national tournament despite winning 21 or more games 4 of their last 5 seasons. I believe that'd be us in the WCHA. Decent but not enough for anyone to care. Might it be better?? I don't know, but you can't act like you were right when you don't know what the other half would have looked like.

(10-05-2018 07:08 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 06:18 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

Yes, every thread devolves into that.

Even during the season.

When we win, it's 'told you we can compete in the NCHC.'

When we lose, it's 'told you the NCHC is too hard.'

The last few years I have taken a fairly low profile on the hockey forum. Some exceptions, but that was mostly the single year we were pretty competitive in the NCHC, and several folks wanted to call me out, as if the previous four years didn't count. So I responded. The reality is that the concerns I expressed when we got into the league have proved exactly accurate. But instead of owning that, those who argue with my points claim the problem is incompetent coaching from the two time NHL coach of the year, who when we were in the CCHA let the team to a conference title and an NCAA birth.

But whatever.....

I don't think there is a problem. This program is in such a better place than it was. You go to a game and it's obvious how much more skill & speed we have on the ice. It's because we are now recruiting talent to compete in the best conference in college hockey.

The Broncos were decimated by injuries & mono last year during a key run in conference play. They would have been in big trouble no matter what conference they were in.

FWIW, they announced that the exhibition will be on 96.5 FM tomorrow night

(10-05-2018 11:29 AM)Bronc33 Wrote:  

(10-05-2018 07:01 AM)brovol Wrote:  

(10-04-2018 04:57 PM)BroncoMinor Wrote:  People are still arguing against the NCHC. Amazing.

You may want to step back and take a season by season review of the years since we started in the NCHC. When you are done, and after comparing those years to the last few in the CCHA ( when our program was on a big time high, and climbing), I think instead you may wonder why anyone is arguing to stay in the NCHC. My points six years ago look clairvoyant in hindsight.

But keep beating your head against a wall.

Why would we compare anything to the CCHA years? The CCHA wasn't an option. Do I wish we were still in that conference???? HELL YES! But it's gone, and the new WCHA does not equal the CCHA.

Let's look at a team like BG who has drastically improved their overall record since joining the WCHA but has not yet made a national tournament despite winning 21 or more games 4 of their last 5 seasons. I believe that'd be us in the WCHA. Decent but not enough for anyone to care. Might it be better?? I don't know, but you can't act like you were right when you don't know what the other half would have looked like.

I predicted exactly what would happen, before we played our first NCHC game, and my prognostication was right. Others have tended to call me out every time we have had a two game winning streak the last several years, as if if proves I was wrong. It doesnt, and that much has proven true. I agree that we dont know what would have happened if we were in the WCHA. What we do know is that other schools, who's hockey programs had been on the verge of extinction, have very much benefited by the WCHA. It is a solid conference, which plays good competitive hockey. Personally, I think WMU would have been, and would still be, the top program in that league, and in each year would have been likely one of the top two teams, and in a very good possession to make the NCAA. Keep in mind, if WMU was in the WCHA, the WCHA would be better, and more competitive. But there already are some very decent programs in that league.

Here is the thing about this debate. We were forced to go into a different conference several years ago. Bad situation for us and other schools. Neither situation was perfect, and I said that back then too. At the time I was the sole person who had the audacity to suggest that the WCHA would be a better fit for WMU, given a multitude of factors. Just my opinion; but I got demonized just because I believed different that everyone else. Now, any time I say anything about the issue, or even if I dont, five people come out to slay me again. The big irony with that though is that we haven't done well in the NCHC. Every year the same preseason experts say how great our recruiting has been and that we will be end at the top or near the top of the league, but except for really only one decent conference season, we have done poorly in the standings.

We aught to be able to have a legitimate and honest debate on the conference issue, but some have dug in their heals, and doubled down on the NCHC so much that it is impossible to be objective. Instead it is about referencing how stupid Brovol is because he thought our program would struggle in the NCHC most years. Never mind that we have actually struggled. The first few years the excuse was that it was our first year or two, so we needed some time to adjust. As if the other teams had been in the NCHC longer than us, or that there would be an "adjustment period" regardless. It was silly.

We could finish last in the NCHC for 20 years in a row, and finally have WMU terminate the hockey program, and folks on this forum would still think the NCHC was the greatest thing for WMU.