(02-23-2018 01:37 PM)olliebaba Wrote: By the Bibles definition anyone who tries to make you believe that God does not exist is an anti-Christ. So by definition if this "wise" man is trying to influence you not to believe in God then he is evil. See, evil does exist and if there is evil then it's common sensical that there is good. There is always an opposite to everything like the magnetic pull and push.
When someone is so intent on not believing sometimes not even having Jesus appearance would not faze them. Those people would blame it on something else, a drug for instance, not sleeping well the night before, etc.
What if they teach things contrary to the Bible such as centuries old Tradition of men ? Or hold to the Philosophy of men , substituting this for Truth? Do these things also fall in the category of " Anti Christ ? If it does fit that category , one should be very careful as to what info is presented to people as well as the tone and manner it is presented.
(02-23-2018 01:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: Explain how the bible so perfectly predicted 2000+ years of history concerning the church age, Christ, the fall of Israel in 70 AD the return of modern Israel nearly 2000 years later in such stunning detail and accuracy, and why hasn't any other religion been able to do anything even remotely similar to that of its no big deal?
Your evidence of perfect predictions is based on remarkably selective readings, biased interpretations, and looking for sentences to fit your desire. You believe in scripture and place value in the words because your already believe in the religious principles the text describes!
How would you know? You never once bothered to look at them in your life. You just toss this nonsense response out because you don't want to believe and don't know what else to say.
These are not some vague one off prophecies, they are entire chapters of details containing specific time markers and specific places, peoples, and lands and they are in 15-20 different books of the Bible repeated over and over and over again.
You are deceiving yourself with totally blind and false assumptions.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2018 02:48 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
(02-23-2018 01:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: Explain how the bible so perfectly predicted 2000+ years of history concerning the church age, Christ, the fall of Israel in 70 AD the return of modern Israel nearly 2000 years later in such stunning detail and accuracy, and why hasn't any other religion been able to do anything even remotely similar to that of its no big deal?
Your evidence of perfect predictions is based on remarkably selective readings, biased interpretations, and looking for sentences to fit your desire. You believe in scripture and place value in the words because your already believe in the religious principles the text describes!
How would you know? You never once bothered to look at them in your life. You just toss this nonsense out because you don't want to believe and don't know what else to say.
These are not some vague one off prophecies, they are entire chapters of details containing specific time markers and specific places, peoples, and lands and they are in 15-20 different books of the Bible repeated over and over and over again.
You are deceiving yourself with totally blind and false assumptions.
In the history of humanity, why was this small epic of the bronze age the point of revelation and documentation of Gods word?
(02-23-2018 01:26 PM)umbluegray Wrote: He stepped out of eternity into humanity as a sacrifice to take on everyone's guilt as an offer of absolution only asking each person accept that gift of absolution freely.
And you don't think He's a nice guy?
Yes, seems like a nice thing to do. But if I don't believe I get eternal damnation? Not such a nice guy thing to do.
Surely you see the dichotomy here?
Actually, I see false dichotomy.
If I force somebody to do something the accountability lies with me. Free will means the accountability lies with the individual who made the choice.
If you get angry and drive your car into the side of your house that has nothing to do with me.
However, if I offered to pay to have your car and house fixed, then I don't see why you would consider me to be a bad guy.
I think the analogy would be more appropriate if your offer was "I'll fix the house for you if you ask, but if not I'll burn it down."
Perfect example of Pagan teaching being accepted as the True Nature of God. Sad.
(02-23-2018 01:39 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: Explain how the bible so perfectly predicted 2000+ years of history concerning the church age, Christ, the fall of Israel in 70 AD the return of modern Israel nearly 2000 years later in such stunning detail and accuracy, and why hasn't any other religion been able to do anything even remotely similar to that of its no big deal?
Your evidence of perfect predictions is based on remarkably selective readings, biased interpretations, and looking for sentences to fit your desire. You believe in scripture and place value in the words because your already believe in the religious principles the text describes!
How would you know? You never once bothered to look at them in your life. You just toss this nonsense out because you don't want to believe and don't know what else to say.
These are not some vague one off prophecies, they are entire chapters of details containing specific time markers and specific places, peoples, and lands and they are in 15-20 different books of the Bible repeated over and over and over again.
You are deceiving yourself with totally blind and false assumptions.
In the history of humanity, why was this small epic of the bronze age the point of revelation and documentation of Gods word?
The prophecies we are talking about were not written during the bronze age. They were written several centuries before Christ.
The "epic" of their fulfilment was also not in the bronze age, its was during the life of Christ and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in the 1st century AD, and the centuries that followed, right up until 1948 AD and even today.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2018 02:35 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: How would you know? You never once bothered to look at them in your life. You just toss this nonsense out because you don't want to believe and don't know what else to say.
Huh? I don't believe. I don't need anything else to say except I don't believe.
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: These are not some vague one off prophecies, they are entire chapters of details containing specific time markers and specific places, peoples, and lands and they are in 15-20 different books of the Bible repeated over and over and over again.
It's not really debatable that the bible is not remotely self-authenticating, as has been pointed out consistently, and is choke full of factual inaccuracies and inconsistencies, which has also been shown with regularity.
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: You are deceiving yourself with totally blind and false assumptions.
It's highly presumptuous to assume that one's own preferred scripture is the single "true" scripture while all the others are false accounts. It's far more likely that every religious book is equally fictitious and unreliable.
(02-23-2018 01:26 PM)umbluegray Wrote: He stepped out of eternity into humanity as a sacrifice to take on everyone's guilt as an offer of absolution only asking each person accept that gift of absolution freely.
And you don't think He's a nice guy?
Yes, seems like a nice thing to do. But if I don't believe I get eternal damnation? Not such a nice guy thing to do.
Surely you see the dichotomy here?
Actually, I see false dichotomy.
If I force somebody to do something the accountability lies with me. Free will means the accountability lies with the individual who made the choice.
If you get angry and drive your car into the side of your house that has nothing to do with me.
However, if I offered to pay to have your car and house fixed, then I don't see why you would consider me to be a bad guy.
I think the analogy would be more appropriate if your offer was "I'll fix the house for you if you ask, but if not I'll burn it down."
No, I don't think that's accurate.
Free will is just that -- you make your own decision.
Think about this: if we're automa-tons/robots who are just following commands then why do you or I think any of the resulting actions are wrong.
If you follow the command to NOT kill somebody but joe follows the command TO kill somebody, why do you care? Heck, how could you care?
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: How would you know? You never once bothered to look at them in your life. You just toss this nonsense out because you don't want to believe and don't know what else to say.
Huh? I don't believe. I don't need anything else to say except I don't believe.
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: These are not some vague one off prophecies, they are entire chapters of details containing specific time markers and specific places, peoples, and lands and they are in 15-20 different books of the Bible repeated over and over and over again.
It's not really debatable that the bible is not remotely self-authenticating, as has been pointed out consistently, and is choke full of factual inaccuracies and inconsistencies, which has also been shown with regularity.
(02-23-2018 02:24 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: You are deceiving yourself with totally blind and false assumptions.
It's highly presumptuous to assume that one's own preferred scripture is the single "true" scripture while all the others are false accounts. It's far more likely that every religious book is equally fictitious and unreliable.
Indeed, you already decided there was no evidence to see before you even looked. So you didn't look because you had already decided before you looked. Thus there is nothing to see.
Nonsensical and blatantly biased logic.
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2018 02:45 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
I am concerned about false religions the bible warned about near the end times. I find the evangelical, tent revival types to be 'new' religion and to be wary of.
(02-23-2018 01:26 PM)umbluegray Wrote: He stepped out of eternity into humanity as a sacrifice to take on everyone's guilt as an offer of absolution only asking each person accept that gift of absolution freely.
And you don't think He's a nice guy?
Yes, seems like a nice thing to do. But if I don't believe I get eternal damnation? Not such a nice guy thing to do.
Surely you see the dichotomy here?
Actually, I see false dichotomy.
If I force somebody to do something the accountability lies with me. Free will means the accountability lies with the individual who made the choice.
If you get angry and drive your car into the side of your house that has nothing to do with me.
However, if I offered to pay to have your car and house fixed, then I don't see why you would consider me to be a bad guy.
I think the analogy would be more appropriate if your offer was "I'll fix the house for you if you ask, but if not I'll burn it down."
No, I don't think that's accurate.
Free will is just that -- you make your own decision.
Think about this: if we're automa-tons/robots who are just following commands then why do you or I think any of the resulting actions are wrong.
If you follow the command to NOT kill somebody but joe follows the command TO kill somebody, why do you care? Heck, how could you care?
We're following commands that our brain came up with a short time before we became aware of them. Most of us have a sense of what we think is fair and right. Those are our morals. If someone does something against those morals, like murdering someone, then we consider it "wrong". We also find the person likely dangerous to society - we don't want them to kill anyone else - so we lock them up, because we don't know how to fix the person.
(02-23-2018 02:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: Indeed, you already decided there was no evidence to see before you even looked. So you didn't look because you had already decided before you looked. Thus there is nothing to see.
Nonsensical and blatantly biased logic.
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
Then, from my point of view you already decided there was evidence to see before you even looked. So you looked because you had already decided before you looked. Thus there is something to see.
(02-23-2018 02:38 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote: Indeed, you already decided there was no evidence to see before you even looked. So you didn't look because you had already decided before you looked. Thus there is nothing to see.
Nonsensical and blatantly biased logic.
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
Then, from my point of view you already decided there was evidence to see before you even looked. So you looked because you had already decided before you looked. Thus there is something to see.
Nonsensical and blatantly biased logic.
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
I'd love to have beer with you, regardless.
You just make way too many blind assumptions without any facts.
I looked because I did not know if there was anything to see or not. I wanted to know if there was any tangible real evidence or was it all just blind faith. I didn't know what to believe at that point.
I didn't even know what evidence I was supposed to be looking for, much less if there was actually going to be any in the first place.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2018 03:10 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
I don't know about why you consider the Bible truthful and not just myth like unbelievers do. My reasons are that the prophesies in the OT about Jesus alone could predict His coming and how He would die. That He would be the incarnate God sent by the Father to die for our sins. That, to me, is remarkable. Jesus Himself said that "this temple will be destroyed but will be raised in three days". The listeners thought that He was referring to the Jewish temple but in fact was speaking about Himself.
The prophesies in the Bible are astounding in their accuracy and that's why I believe it and that's why I'm a believer.
If you favor not to, that's on you, you have free will which some of us have been trying *sigh* to show you but you close your mind because you think you're wiser than God. God help you.
(02-23-2018 02:46 PM)umbluegray Wrote: Suffering and Evil: Part 1
Explanation why the argument fails.
Part of that assumes we have free will, which I, and many others do not think is correct. If god knows everything, he knows everything that we are going to do, therefore our decisions are already predetermined.
(02-23-2018 01:15 PM)Old Dominion Wrote: You guys are a trip. Punishment? for what? hell a literal place where people go to burn?? Come on people. If you can't let yourself see these are metaphors I feel for you.
Jesus death and resurrection was a metaphor for all of us. We all have eternal life. There's no Pearly Gates, no angels with harps, no burning in hell. We don't live our lives just to obtain some cosmic award. There are no winners and losers.
Again, a very immature level of understanding, based on a child's view of life. Be good, get a cookie, be bad, go to bed without dessert. This is not a contest to try and make God pleased with us.
You are loved, completely and without conditions. Nothing you can do will ever change that. and the Creator did not and does not now require a blood sacrifice to buy our way into "heaven".
That's a really scary thought when you consider the implications in society if everyone adopted this belief.
So a mass murderer escapes punishment and is rewarded the same as Mother Theresa.
And people wonder why there's evil in the world?
Live for yourself for tomorrow you die!
I'm not saying that at all. I wonder why people jump to such extreme examples? You and I both know there are consequences for every action.
The mass murderer will suffer what ever consequences they are going to. You and I can't begin as humans to understand what that might entail. In fact, because it's all so far over our heads, we were given a book with stories in it to help us understand in a very symbolic, metaphoric way.
My point is the consequences will not be based on anger or retribution ( those are human qualities, not God qualities)The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us.
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
I think what he is trying to say is along these lines.
The punishment the mass murderer will receive is a full understanding of what he did, and that in itself is the worst punishment possible.
I don't know where that concept originates or if it is part of any particular religion. It is a fairly common concept though.
(02-23-2018 03:51 PM)olliebaba Wrote: From post above. ^^^"The consequences will be based on teaching the murders spirit how to live in harmony with the rest of us."
Huh, I'm sorry you lost me with this gem. Explain please and which religion teaches that?
We are spiritual beings having a human experience. We existed before as spirit and we will return to spirit once our bodies die ( Jesus's resurrection showed us this).
Anything we do as humans that separates us from the love of our creator is sin. Our spirit learns spiritual lessons by use of our worldly experiences. When we transgress, our spirit has to be taught how we erred. That is an ongoing process. I have no idea how that happens and frankly I don't think anyone else does either. All I believe is that consequences are about learning how to be in greater harmony with others and God, not to merely punish. We are all created by God and expected to learn how to love others as our self, because in fact we are all one. Anything I do to you, I also do to myself. That is one of the consequences. If I do bad things, I do bad things to my own spirit and if I do good, I do good to my spirit
(02-23-2018 02:46 PM)umbluegray Wrote: Suffering and Evil: Part 1
Explanation why the argument fails.
Alvin Plantinga is the one credited with the argument to solve the problem of evil that William Lain Craig is using for this video. The video makes more of the logical solution that it really is. The two parts to the Plantinga solution is 1) That it is impossible to create beings that have the freedom to choose good or evil but will always choose good and 2) the existence of pain and suffering in the world is a net benefit that will create more good than if the world existed with only goodness and no evil.
I believe point 2 is not actually correct in practice if it is "correct" solely on logic. Instinctively, a number of people do not believe in point 2 from a practical standpoint either. Every person who believes over half of the world will be going to hell - does not believe in point 2.
