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Potential XFL return
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Potential XFL return
This is gonna be a disaster. He does have the financial backing. If I were him, I'd take advantage of the NFL's biggest weaknesses, like the players kneeling during the anthem, that the league has grown stale, some innovative, not gimmicky rules.

But again, as I said, he'd be better served trying to elevate MLS or MLL. It'd be way cheaper and less likely to fail.
01-25-2018 05:49 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 05:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  With the announcement official today I have to dredge up this old thread.

I still think the best bets are cities that the NFL abandoned: St Louis, San Diego, and Oakland

Next you have to look at top 35 markets the NFL ignores: Orlando, San Antonio

Toss in a few smaller, but football rabid ones: Memphis, Birmingham, Salt Lake City

I think you also take a chance that you can generate some market penetration in a few really big markets with a focus on ones where football is very popular: Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, NYC

there you have it-- a 12 team XFL

Vince will show he's too "Red State" for Oakland or Sacramento. The A's will make a fuss too.
Memphis, Birmingham are just there again to be asked to bend over for minor league ball...again; another generation will pass on this.

Average ticket was $25 in 2001, so that's like $36 now using the CPI.

This will still fail, but we need to wait the 24 months. Meanwhile, Vince will likely get some $$$ back thru tryout fees for the Home Depot guy and the guy changing tires at Costco
01-25-2018 07:39 PM
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utpotts Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Potential XFL return
(12-27-2017 10:24 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I would go into markets that do not have a NFL team in the city.

NORTH
Omaha - (TD Ameritrade Park)
St. Louis - (America's Center)
Milwaukee - (Miller Park)
Louisville - (Papa Johns Stadium)

SOUTH
Birmingham - (Legion Field)
Memphis - (Liberty Bowl)
San Antonio - (Alamo Dome)
Orlando - (Camping World Stadium)

EAST
New York City - (Yankee Stadium)
Boston - (Fenway Park)
Virginia Beach - (Foreman Field)
Raleigh - (Carter-Finley Stadium)

WEST
Oakland - (Oakland Alameda Coliseum)
San Diego - (SDCCU Stadium)
Portland - (Providence Park)
Salt Lake City - (Rice-Eccles Stadium)

Most of those stadiums are smaller which will help with stadium experience

Fenway Park will not allow a minor league football team to tear up their field prior to opening day. Nor will Yankee Stadium or Milwaukee.
01-25-2018 07:47 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 07:47 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 10:24 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I would go into markets that do not have a NFL team in the city.

NORTH
Omaha - (TD Ameritrade Park)
St. Louis - (America's Center)
Milwaukee - (Miller Park)
Louisville - (Papa Johns Stadium)

SOUTH
Birmingham - (Legion Field)
Memphis - (Liberty Bowl)
San Antonio - (Alamo Dome)
Orlando - (Camping World Stadium)

EAST
New York City - (Yankee Stadium)
Boston - (Fenway Park)
Virginia Beach - (Foreman Field)
Raleigh - (Carter-Finley Stadium)

WEST
Oakland - (Oakland Alameda Coliseum)
San Diego - (SDCCU Stadium)
Portland - (Providence Park)
Salt Lake City - (Rice-Eccles Stadium)

Most of those stadiums are smaller which will help with stadium experience

Fenway Park will not allow a minor league football team to tear up their field prior to opening day. Nor will Yankee Stadium or Milwaukee.

Yankee Stadium has MLS in March with NYCFC. Another tenant isn't gonna occur.
01-25-2018 08:50 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Potential XFL return
(12-27-2017 10:24 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  I would go into markets that do not have a NFL team in the city.

NORTH
Omaha - (TD Ameritrade Park)
St. Louis - (America's Center)
Milwaukee - (Miller Park)
Louisville - (Papa Johns Stadium)

SOUTH
Birmingham - (Legion Field)
Memphis - (Liberty Bowl)
San Antonio - (Alamo Dome)
Orlando - (Camping World Stadium)

EAST
New York City - (Yankee Stadium)
Boston - (Fenway Park)
Virginia Beach - (Foreman Field)
Raleigh - (Carter-Finley Stadium)

WEST
Oakland - (Oakland Alameda Coliseum)
San Diego - (SDCCU Stadium)
Portland - (Providence Park)
Salt Lake City - (Rice-Eccles Stadium)

Most of those stadiums are smaller which will help with stadium experience

Maybe you're considering the city proper and not the metro area, but New York has two teams (Jets & Giants), Boston has the Patriots, Oakland is part of the SF MSA and can share the 49ers (sorry Raiders fans). Otherwise not a bad list.

I'd nix those three for a 14 team league.
01-25-2018 09:08 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Potential XFL return
Here's an out-of-the-box idea: Instead of putting teams in cities and having them travel across the country (or even within a region) in small stadiums before small crowds, strike a deal with, say, ESPN's Wide World of Sports complex to host the entire season there. Four games, scattered over two or three days, involving eight teams that only have nicknames, played out in a tiny but modern football stadium. Chances are, this XFL will be broadcast-forward and they already have an agreement with Orlando's Full Sail University and their TV production, film and Internet marketing programs, giving their students on-the-job training with WWE's NXT minor-league wrestling organization. The XFL would be another outlet for that.

Having a single location like Orlando would cut down on overhead significantly (what's the point of putting teams in Portland and Birmingham and having them schlep all over the place when there's no local ownership anyway?) and with everything centralized, it makes logistics a good bit easier. The crowds for the games won't be big, but they probably won't be anyway (they certainly weren't after the first couple of weeks of the first XFL), and 5,000 in a 7,000-seat stadium looks better than 12,000 in a 30,000-seat stadium (I am working off the impression that if they cut a deal with WWOS, they would expand the stadium that they used to host Orlando City SC a few years ago).
01-25-2018 09:13 PM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 09:13 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Here's an out-of-the-box idea: Instead of putting teams in cities and having them travel across the country (or even within a region) in small stadiums before small crowds, strike a deal with, say, ESPN's Wide World of Sports complex to host the entire season there. Four games, scattered over two or three days, involving eight teams that only have nicknames, played out in a tiny but modern football stadium. Chances are, this XFL will be broadcast-forward and they already have an agreement with Orlando's Full Sail University and their TV production, film and Internet marketing programs, giving their students on-the-job training with WWE's NXT minor-league wrestling organization. The XFL would be another outlet for that.

Having a single location like Orlando would cut down on overhead significantly (what's the point of putting teams in Portland and Birmingham and having them schlep all over the place when there's no local ownership anyway?) and with everything centralized, it makes logistics a good bit easier. The crowds for the games won't be big, but they probably won't be anyway (they certainly weren't after the first couple of weeks of the first XFL), and 5,000 in a 7,000-seat stadium looks better than 12,000 in a 30,000-seat stadium (I am working off the impression that if they cut a deal with WWOS, they would expand the stadium that they used to host Orlando City SC a few years ago).


That's crazy enough to actually work.
01-25-2018 09:24 PM
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McKinney Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Potential XFL return
Maybe this is an oddball question, but will the football be fake? Will the game be choreographed entertainment where the winner is predetermined?
01-25-2018 09:53 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Potential XFL return
Starting off as a single entity is a great model. If they can prove they can sustain a few years then you start selling teams, or partial stakes in teams, to investors wiling to own and operate a team. I think your end goal is to be come popular enough and a large enough threat that the NFL has to consider adding some of your teams into their league at which point Vince and anyone else who was willing to take the risk makes out like bandits and the initial $100 million investment is recouped at least 10 fold.
01-25-2018 10:05 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 09:13 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Here's an out-of-the-box idea: Instead of putting teams in cities and having them travel across the country (or even within a region) in small stadiums before small crowds, strike a deal with, say, ESPN's Wide World of Sports complex to host the entire season there. Four games, scattered over two or three days, involving eight teams that only have nicknames, played out in a tiny but modern football stadium. Chances are, this XFL will be broadcast-forward and they already have an agreement with Orlando's Full Sail University and their TV production, film and Internet marketing programs, giving their students on-the-job training with WWE's NXT minor-league wrestling organization. The XFL would be another outlet for that.

Having a single location like Orlando would cut down on overhead significantly (what's the point of putting teams in Portland and Birmingham and having them schlep all over the place when there's no local ownership anyway?) and with everything centralized, it makes logistics a good bit easier. The crowds for the games won't be big, but they probably won't be anyway (they certainly weren't after the first couple of weeks of the first XFL), and 5,000 in a 7,000-seat stadium looks better than 12,000 in a 30,000-seat stadium (I am working off the impression that if they cut a deal with WWOS, they would expand the stadium that they used to host Orlando City SC a few years ago).

Are you thinking maybe something like the barnstorming campaign the Ice Cube did with 3 on 3 basketball? That could work but I don't know that it endears fans to your teams the way a local product would. The Big 3 was able to pull it off because that sport is more player focused and I think a lot of folks came out just to see past their prime stars suit up one more time.

Part of what the XFL needs to do is study their markets and learn what they want. I think there needs to be a territorial aspect to player assignments. Try to keep players near their colleges and the same with anyone who jumps from the NFL. Ultimately the mission needs to be provide a football product to fans the NFL is neglecting--working class folks, red state folks, people in cities the NFL has stopped or never started serving. In Oakland, San Diego, and St Louis the focus and marketing needs to be about thumbing their noses at the NFL. If they do this right, people like me who live no where near a prospective XFL city are going to tune in and follow simply because it's not NFL football.
01-25-2018 10:14 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Potential XFL return
(12-27-2017 02:31 AM)lew240z Wrote:  Saint Louis can be removed from the list. The convention center makes more money, and I mean a hell of a lot more money, without football. The convention center lost at least $50,000 each time the Rams played. And that doesn't count the lost revenue from not being able to rent the space during the football season. The convention center made a profit of more than $1,000,000 on a BeyoncĂ© concert. It is expected that the convention center will make that kind of money again with the Taylor Swift concert next year.

You're probably right, but IIRC the NFL prohibited the convention bureau from hosting any events at America's Center or the Edward Jones Dome a day or two before and after Rams games for security reasons. It's not like the XFL Part II would generate much revenue and conventions are probably still a lot more profitable from their POV, though there may be that to consider.
01-25-2018 10:28 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 10:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Starting off as a single entity is a great model. If they can prove they can sustain a few years then you start selling teams, or partial stakes in teams, to investors wiling to own and operate a team. I think your end goal is to be come popular enough and a large enough threat that the NFL has to consider adding some of your teams into their league at which point Vince and anyone else who was willing to take the risk makes out like bandits and the initial $100 million investment is recouped at least 10 fold.

All he has done is to tell all of the regional arena/indoor leagues that he'll poach your talent if you don't get your $hit together.

Major League Football was single entity and publicly traded and it's been a penny stock for a decade and can't get it started.

FXFL couldn't manager a full season either. The hourglass with his money is already draining.

Bad player + bad coaches= Football fans won't pay for

Once they put out pricing, fans will say no. $40/game is likely to be the average since it was $25 in 2001 and using the CPI would place it around $36.
01-25-2018 10:30 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 10:28 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 02:31 AM)lew240z Wrote:  Saint Louis can be removed from the list. The convention center makes more money, and I mean a hell of a lot more money, without football. The convention center lost at least $50,000 each time the Rams played. And that doesn't count the lost revenue from not being able to rent the space during the football season. The convention center made a profit of more than $1,000,000 on a BeyoncĂ© concert. It is expected that the convention center will make that kind of money again with the Taylor Swift concert next year.

You're probably right, but IIRC the NFL prohibited the convention bureau from hosting any events at America's Center or the Edward Jones Dome a day or two before and after Rams games for security reasons. It's not like the XFL Part II would generate much revenue and conventions are probably still a lot more profitable from their POV, though there may be that to consider.

We are talking about 5 home dates a year until if/when the league grows to the point that it needs a longer season. The XFL isn't going to have the leverage to demand the extra days pre/post game so I think it'll work out just fine. I think St Louis is a market that will work just fine and the dome will help for those cold dates on the schedule.

Personally I think the late January/early February start is too early if you want to have teams in cold weather climates. That might explain why 2001 wasn't that successful in Chicago and NYC.
01-25-2018 10:35 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Potential XFL return
(12-26-2017 05:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I know this isn't a college sports topic by any means but it certainly could have an impact on the college game and college players.

Vince McMahon appears to be gearing up to either relaunch the XFL, or perhaps another upstart league with a different name in response to the growing discontent fans are having with the NFL.

Here are my thoughts:

Play a spring schedule--don't take the NFL head on

Focus on cities that are the most discontent with the NFL--
St. Louis
San Diego
Oakland
Throw in some other markets that are unserved and have ready to use stadiums
San Antonio
Orlando
Birmingham
Memphis
Plus a few big markets for good measure
NYC (is you can't get the Meadowlands maybe this team ends up at Rutgers or UConn)
Chicago (stadium might be tricky too)
Dallas (Cotton Bowl)

Learn from the mistakes of 2001. Don't emphasize the WWE or a bad boy culture. Brand yourselves as a return to "old time football" without the fancy stadiums and exorbitant prices. Cater to middle class consumers. Don't make crazy rules that lead to a bunch of injuries.

Find a network willing to take a chance on your product but also take advantage of streaming options. Could these be Turner's opportunity to jump into the football game?

Start with a single entity structure but eventually plan on moving to an owner/operator model similar to MLS.

Thoughts?

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01-25-2018 10:36 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 09:08 PM)McKinney Wrote:  Maybe you're considering the city proper and not the metro area, but New York has two teams (Jets & Giants), Boston has the Patriots, Oakland is part of the SF MSA and can share the 49ers (sorry Raiders fans). Otherwise not a bad list.

I'd nix those three for a 14 team league.

I know what he said but if you aren't in New York or LA, you won't be visible enough. You need to be in big markets regardless of whether they have teams or not. The NFL might be on the decline, heck your teams could supplant the NFL's.
01-25-2018 11:56 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 09:53 PM)McKinney Wrote:  Maybe this is an oddball question, but will the football be fake? Will the game be choreographed entertainment where the winner is predetermined?

That's fair to ask about the NFL in general.
01-26-2018 12:39 AM
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bronconick Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Potential XFL return
I think he's a few years too late on this. When the NFL is looking at paying out upwards of a billion dollars to former players for concussions and the common reaction to vicious hits are "I hope he's okay" as much or more than "Awesome!", there isn't going to be enough interest in a minor league whose selling point will be "The way football used to be before the NFL pansyfied it up".
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2018 06:42 AM by bronconick.)
01-26-2018 06:36 AM
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micahandme Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Potential XFL return
(12-26-2017 08:18 PM)otown Wrote:  
(12-26-2017 06:37 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(12-26-2017 06:32 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Allow kids to join straight out of HS

Watch the NFL collectively crap its pants

Not really. Unlike Baseball (occassionally) and Basketball, no straight outta HS kid is going to make it in the NFL. Just not big/strong enough. It would effect schools like Alabama, etc if the XFL paid more than they did, but any player that got good in the XFL will end up in the NFL.

I agree, NCAAF will get hurt the most. For the 4/5 star players, most (not all) have their goals set on the NFL, not the degree. They are simply using the schools such as Alabama, OSU, etc as a tool to improve their game to NFL standards. Offer those same kids the opportunity to get all those benefits without the distraction of school work, amateur rules, and a sizable salary (much less than the NFL, but 100-500X more than "cost of attendance" stipends). THE SEC AND BIG 12 will be destroyed.

I fixed it for you.
01-26-2018 06:41 AM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-25-2018 09:13 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Here's an out-of-the-box idea: Instead of putting teams in cities and having them travel across the country (or even within a region) in small stadiums before small crowds, strike a deal with, say, ESPN's Wide World of Sports complex to host the entire season there. Four games, scattered over two or three days, involving eight teams that only have nicknames, played out in a tiny but modern football stadium. Chances are, this XFL will be broadcast-forward and they already have an agreement with Orlando's Full Sail University and their TV production, film and Internet marketing programs, giving their students on-the-job training with WWE's NXT minor-league wrestling organization. The XFL would be another outlet for that.

Having a single location like Orlando would cut down on overhead significantly (what's the point of putting teams in Portland and Birmingham and having them schlep all over the place when there's no local ownership anyway?) and with everything centralized, it makes logistics a good bit easier. The crowds for the games won't be big, but they probably won't be anyway (they certainly weren't after the first couple of weeks of the first XFL), and 5,000 in a 7,000-seat stadium looks better than 12,000 in a 30,000-seat stadium (I am working off the impression that if they cut a deal with WWOS, they would expand the stadium that they used to host Orlando City SC a few years ago).

I'm going to piggyback off this idea. Instead of one location. Make it a traveling event. Four teams( Group A ) will play in Dallas this weekend and Four Teams ( Group B ) will play in New York. Next weekend Group B will be playing in San Antonio and Group A will be playing in Los Angeles. Now the third weekend Group C & D which has 2 teams rotated from both A and B. Group C plays in Minnesota and Group D is playing in Tampa.

This type of traveling event would reduce a lot of cost and grow the brand.
01-26-2018 06:56 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Potential XFL return
(01-26-2018 06:56 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  
(01-25-2018 09:13 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  Here's an out-of-the-box idea: Instead of putting teams in cities and having them travel across the country (or even within a region) in small stadiums before small crowds, strike a deal with, say, ESPN's Wide World of Sports complex to host the entire season there. Four games, scattered over two or three days, involving eight teams that only have nicknames, played out in a tiny but modern football stadium. Chances are, this XFL will be broadcast-forward and they already have an agreement with Orlando's Full Sail University and their TV production, film and Internet marketing programs, giving their students on-the-job training with WWE's NXT minor-league wrestling organization. The XFL would be another outlet for that.

Having a single location like Orlando would cut down on overhead significantly (what's the point of putting teams in Portland and Birmingham and having them schlep all over the place when there's no local ownership anyway?) and with everything centralized, it makes logistics a good bit easier. The crowds for the games won't be big, but they probably won't be anyway (they certainly weren't after the first couple of weeks of the first XFL), and 5,000 in a 7,000-seat stadium looks better than 12,000 in a 30,000-seat stadium (I am working off the impression that if they cut a deal with WWOS, they would expand the stadium that they used to host Orlando City SC a few years ago).

I'm going to piggyback off this idea. Instead of one location. Make it a traveling event. Four teams( Group A ) will play in Dallas this weekend and Four Teams ( Group B ) will play in New York. Next weekend Group B will be playing in San Antonio and Group A will be playing in Los Angeles. Now the third weekend Group C & D which has 2 teams rotated from both A and B. Group C plays in Minnesota and Group D is playing in Tampa.

This type of traveling event would reduce a lot of cost and grow the brand.

Putting everyone on a plane and in hotels for ten weeks won't reduce costs, rather the opposite.
01-26-2018 07:29 AM
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