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California, we told you so!
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Old Blue Offline
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Post: #81
RE: California, we told you so!
(12-24-2017 05:54 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 05:16 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 11:49 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-19-2017 01:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  California's $15 Minimum Wage Could Backfire and Cost the State 400,000 Jobs, According to EPI Study

Quote:A newly released longitudinal study on the effects of the rising minimum wage in California reveals it negatively affects low-income workers.

“[A]pproximately 400,000 jobs would be lost” by 2022 “as a consequence” of California gradually imposing the first statewide $15 minimum wage, according to a study from the Employment Policies Institute, a conservative nonprofit research organization. “This estimate is conservative, as it measures the impact of California’s state minimum wage but does not account for job loss in counties that had insufficient data.”

The law will disproportionately harm the very people that lawmakers claim they want to help the most: low-skilled workers. “[N]early half of the observed job loss occurs in food service and retail industries,” the study concludes.

Great...a study by some sort of interest group with an axe to grind. By the way, charity navigator has some sort of warning about this group.

California is doing great.

Failing infrastructure, lack of water, high poverty, 1/5 of all the kids in foster care in the US are in California (60k), tax burdens that are causing people and businesses to leave, overbearing regulations...

Only positive I see is the innovation of Silicon Valley.

How do you figure "doing great"? Most people that I talk to are looking to get out.

I'm not trying to flame you, I just don't get your optimism for California.

Bump.

People aren't even going to their sh!tty movies anymore. If I was them I'd let Mel Gibson take over the entire operation.
01-02-2018 07:57 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #82
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-02-2018 05:39 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-24-2017 05:54 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 05:16 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 11:49 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-19-2017 01:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  California's $15 Minimum Wage Could Backfire and Cost the State 400,000 Jobs, According to EPI Study

Great...a study by some sort of interest group with an axe to grind. By the way, charity navigator has some sort of warning about this group.

California is doing great.

Failing infrastructure, lack of water, high poverty, 1/5 of all the kids in foster care in the US are in California (60k), tax burdens that are causing people and businesses to leave, overbearing regulations...

Only positive I see is the innovation of Silicon Valley.

How do you figure "doing great"? Most people that I talk to are looking to get out.

I'm not trying to flame you, I just don't get your optimism for California.

Bump.

Bump for Tom

You have to forgive Lazytom for his absence. He's spending the holidays in consultation with the Crown Prince of Montenegro.
01-02-2018 08:00 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #83
RE: California, we told you so!
(12-27-2017 01:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Those starter jobs are the jobs now.

But what you fail to understand is that a job will only pay the value of the product it creates.

Quote:What they may have been meant to be doesn't really matter because few of those jobs are filled by teens.

It doesn't matter if its a 13yo's first job or a 40yo widower caring for three kids. Flipping a burger generates so much value, and I can assure you it's not 15$ an hour.

Pushing these jobs to have a "living wage" will only make most of them go away, and then everybody loses.
01-02-2018 08:06 PM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #84
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-02-2018 08:06 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 01:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Those starter jobs are the jobs now.

But what you fail to understand is that a job will only pay the value of the product it creates.

Quote:What they may have been meant to be doesn't really matter because few of those jobs are filled by teens.

It doesn't matter if its a 13yo's first job or a 40yo widower caring for three kids. Flipping a burger generates so much value, and I can assure you it's not 15$ an hour.

Pushing these jobs to have a "living wage" will only make most of them go away, and then everybody loses.

Yep, even though former high school jobs may now be full time adult jobs that still doesn't mean they should pay higher wages. That makes no sense.
01-03-2018 08:31 AM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #85
RE: California, we told you so!
Something to keep in mind... they're using the ol' Bait and Switch.

$15/hr is not a Living Wage. Think about it -- is $15/hr ($31,200 per year for 40 hrs/wk with no overtime) enough to support your family in California, NYC, Boston, etc? Heck, that's not enough to support your family in Memphis.


But once society accepts the idea of Living Wage then they'll spring it on us.

Here's the Living Wage Calculator.

The hourly rate varies depending on your situation.

For example, in Los Angeles County, CA if you're a single adult with no children (Person A) your Living Wage is $13.08/hr. However, if you're a single adult with 3 children (Person B) your Living Wage is $40.70/hr.

That's a huge difference. Person A and Person B could work side by side, but because of the difference in their family situation their hourly wage is different.


Don't buy the Living Wage crap. Force them to call it Minimum Wage and nothing else.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2018 11:01 AM by umbluegray.)
01-03-2018 11:00 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #86
RE: California, we told you so!
(12-21-2017 11:49 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(12-19-2017 01:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  California's $15 Minimum Wage Could Backfire and Cost the State 400,000 Jobs, According to EPI Study

Quote:A newly released longitudinal study on the effects of the rising minimum wage in California reveals it negatively affects low-income workers.

“[A]pproximately 400,000 jobs would be lost” by 2022 “as a consequence” of California gradually imposing the first statewide $15 minimum wage, according to a study from the Employment Policies Institute, a conservative nonprofit research organization. “This estimate is conservative, as it measures the impact of California’s state minimum wage but does not account for job loss in counties that had insufficient data.”

The law will disproportionately harm the very people that lawmakers claim they want to help the most: low-skilled workers. “[N]early half of the observed job loss occurs in food service and retail industries,” the study concludes.

Great...a study by some sort of interest group with an axe to grind. By the way, charity navigator has some sort of warning about this group.

California is doing great.

What the governor had to say about this prior to signing the bill:

Quote:Brown, traveling to the state’s largest media market to sign the landmark bill, remained hesitant about the economic effect of raising the minimum wage, saying, “Economically, minimum wages may not make sense.”

California is most certainly not doing great. We've got more than $170B in unfunded pension liability and no plan to deal with it. Minimum wage isn't helping anything.
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2018 02:17 PM by Brookes Owl.)
01-03-2018 02:17 PM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #87
RE: California, we told you so!
While traveling we stopped at a McDonald's. They had the kiosk. Guess what. Order was right and didn't have to repeat myself more than once. I ordered and sat down within 5 minutes of arrival.
01-03-2018 04:59 PM
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Post: #88
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-03-2018 04:59 PM)gdunn Wrote:  While traveling we stopped at a McDonald's. They had the kiosk. Guess what. Order was right and didn't have to repeat myself more than once. I ordered and sat down within 5 minutes of arrival.

I use their app. They'll bring it out to me.
01-03-2018 05:11 PM
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dfarr Offline
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Post: #89
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-03-2018 05:11 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-03-2018 04:59 PM)gdunn Wrote:  While traveling we stopped at a McDonald's. They had the kiosk. Guess what. Order was right and didn't have to repeat myself more than once. I ordered and sat down within 5 minutes of arrival.

I use their app. They'll bring it out to me.

Chick-fil-A has a pretty good app too
01-03-2018 05:15 PM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #90
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-03-2018 05:11 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(01-03-2018 04:59 PM)gdunn Wrote:  While traveling we stopped at a McDonald's. They had the kiosk. Guess what. Order was right and didn't have to repeat myself more than once. I ordered and sat down within 5 minutes of arrival.

I use their app. They'll bring it out to me.

Oh I had to punch in my table number. I don't think it'll be long and it'll change cause you can grab any cup size you wanted.
01-03-2018 05:20 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #91
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-02-2018 08:06 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  
(12-27-2017 01:19 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Those starter jobs are the jobs now.

But what you fail to understand is that a job will only pay the value of the product it creates.

That's not how wages work. If my factory can hire people at $8.50 an hour to make a product I make a profit of $10 on and I add a new product that requires the same skills but produces a profit of $100 I'm not going to raise my wages as long as I can staff at $8.50

My local community used to have three man garbage crews and switched to advanced trucks and use two man crews with the outside man just there to handle any messes.

Wage costs didn't drop by a third. The new trucks require greater skill and they couldn't attract replacement drivers at the old wage scale who were ready to go without longer training.

This incredibly simple.

Society can choose to subsidize people who lack the skills to perform higher wage jobs or choose to force the employer to pay enough that people don't require subsidization.

The Silicon Valley folks think subsidizing workers is the path we will have to take as automation expands.

Forcing employers to subsidize just accelerates transfer of work from industrialized nations to non-industrialized and accelerates the automation process.

One might say well sucks to be you too bad you can't earn a living wage but anyone versed in history knows that's the path to revolution.

There are nine industrialized nations without a minimum wage. They have a social safety net that subsidizes the wages for the unskilled worker. Most if not all have a work requirement component. It can be scammed but it takes real effort.

We are blended offering the low wage worker food stamps, the earned income credit (if they have dependent children), and depending on the state Medicaid and CHiP for dependent children but still retaining the minimum wage.

I think in a global economy in makes more sense to be like Switzerland and not have a minimum wage.
01-03-2018 05:25 PM
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GrayBeard Offline
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Post: #92
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-02-2018 08:00 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-02-2018 05:39 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-24-2017 05:54 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 05:16 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  
(12-21-2017 11:49 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Great...a study by some sort of interest group with an axe to grind. By the way, charity navigator has some sort of warning about this group.

California is doing great.

Failing infrastructure, lack of water, high poverty, 1/5 of all the kids in foster care in the US are in California (60k), tax burdens that are causing people and businesses to leave, overbearing regulations...

Only positive I see is the innovation of Silicon Valley.

How do you figure "doing great"? Most people that I talk to are looking to get out.

I'm not trying to flame you, I just don't get your optimism for California.

Bump.

Bump for Tom

You have to forgive Lazytom for his absence. He's spending the holidays in consultation with the Crown Prince of Montenegro.

He has returned....Tom in Lazybrook...what say you?
01-03-2018 07:01 PM
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Bull_Is_Back Offline
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Post: #93
RE: California, we told you so!
(01-03-2018 05:25 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Society can choose to subsidize people who lack the skills to perform higher wage jobs or choose to force the employer to pay enough that people don't require subsidization.

Forcing the employer to pay more for a job than it's worth just creates scarcity....

As to your example I guarantee you if they suddenly have a product which is valued at 100$ their best workers can ask for a raise
01-03-2018 08:57 PM
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