(12-18-2017 10:35 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  The devil is in the details. I think the middle class will mostly benefit in the short run, but in the long run there are major problems.
1. Remember that the individual tax cuts expire in 2025.

Only if the democrats decide against extending them.

Quote:2. The tax bill increases the national debt.

Wrong. The CBO does not take into consideration economic growth and the increase in revenue it generates because they have stated they dont know how to do that. Its like stating my weight will balloon because I plan on increasing my caloric intake from 1500 to 2000 per day, at the same time exercising 5 additional hours per day. But because I dont know how to calculate the reduction of my weight due to the additional exercise hours, I will calculate my future weight on the caloric intake only, and completely ignore what happens with significant additional exercise.

Also, glad to see you are now a deficit hawk.

Quote:3. Does the future congress extend the tax cuts in 2025?

If they dont, then they are responsible for tax increase to the american workers.

Quote:4. Will the economy grow at 3.4.5.6 percent a year like the GOP predicts or is it more likely to run around
1-3 percent at best as most economists suggest.

Will you be butthurt if the economy grows at 4%?

Quote:5. What happens to the deficit and national debt?

The better question is what happened to the deficit and national debt under Obama.

Quote:6. What about SS, medicare and medicaid? Are cuts on the way?

Cuts to benefits? Probably. But this has nothing to do with Trump, and everything to do with the numbnuts who ran the system into the ground for the past few decades. If there is any shot of it getting fixed, it will happen under Trump.

1. It is interesting that the other tax cuts don't expire while those that benefit the middle class do. We certainly don't know what the situation will be in 2025.
2. It would be naive to think that this doesn't increase the national debt. I certainly hope that we see a huge growth rate, but wishful thinking isn't good policy. Be happy if it happens but don't bet the financial well being of the nation on it.
3. I think it is more interesting to see that now the GOP aren't deficit hawks. Situational ethics at play here a guess.
4. Basically the 2017 congress has painted the 2025 congress into a corner.
5. I'd love to see 4% growth!!!!!
6. Running deficits and increasing the national debt in a recession are often (maybe always) needed. Trying to reduce them during a good economy is needed as well.

(12-18-2017 10:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  The devil is in the details. I think the middle class will mostly benefit in the short run, but in the long run there are major problems.
1. Remember that the individual tax cuts expire in 2025.
2. The tax bill increases the national debt.
3. Does the future congress extend the tax cuts in 2025?
4. Will the economy grow at 3.4.5.6 percent a year like the GOP predicts or is it more likely to run around
1-3 percent at best as most economists suggest.
5. What happens to the deficit and national debt?
6. What about SS, medicare and medicaid? Are cuts on the way?

1. So no years of tax relief is better than 8 years? Weak argument.
2. You don't know that.
3. Depends on who is in charge. Socialist idiot bernie sanders says if the dems are, corporate rates will go back up.
4. We're already at 3.9%.
5. See #2.
6. President Trump has always said he's against cuts to those programs, and he's kept his word on everything so far.

It's gonna be funny to watch people that really deep down in their heart of hearts think Obama was a good President experience true prosperity during the Trump years. This country has a lot of growing up to do.

(12-18-2017 11:07 AM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  The devil is in the details. I think the middle class will mostly benefit in the short run, but in the long run there are major problems.
1. Remember that the individual tax cuts expire in 2025.
2. The tax bill increases the national debt.
3. Does the future congress extend the tax cuts in 2025?
4. Will the economy grow at 3.4.5.6 percent a year like the GOP predicts or is it more likely to run around
1-3 percent at best as most economists suggest.
5. What happens to the deficit and national debt?
6. What about SS, medicare and medicaid? Are cuts on the way?

1. So no years of tax relief is better than 8 years? Weak argument.
2. You don't know that.
3. Depends on who is in charge. Socialist idiot bernie sanders says if the dems are, corporate rates will go back up.
4. We're already at 3.9%.
5. See #2.
6. President Trump has always said he's against cuts to those programs, and he's kept his word on everything so far.

1. Why not a sunset on the business rate as well or instead?
2. 1.45 trillion according the the congressional study.
3. We aren't at 3.9% and you will be hard pressed to find an economist that thinks 3% is realistic. Historical data as well doesn't indicate 3% realistic.
4. The national debt will be affected by this tax bill.
5. President Trump constantly contradicts himself.

It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

Fear mongering.

(12-18-2017 11:04 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  1. It is interesting that the other tax cuts don't expire while those that benefit the middle class do. We certainly don't know what the situation will be in 2025.

They could have also been extended, except that the democrats are told to not vote for it. Maybe if some of them grew a set instead of being Schumers cucks, this bill could have also gotten that. But I'd rather have corporate taxes be permanent, because if the future congressional numbnuts wants to play games, the will be doing so with the middle class tax cuts. So they probably wont play games.

Quote:2. It would be naive to think that this doesn't increase the national debt. I certainly hope that we see a huge growth rate, but wishful thinking isn't good policy. Be happy if it happens but don't bet the financial well being of the nation on it.

What you dont bet the well being of the nation on is the last couple of decades of tax policy.

Quote:3. I think it is more interesting to see that now the GOP aren't deficit hawks. Situational ethics at play here a guess.

There's two ways to reduce the deficit. Cut spending and increasing the tax revenues. Cutting spending is easier after the economy begins to take off and more people are working. Yo can then more easily rid yourself of the programs that have become a mammary gland to the dependents.

Quote:4. Basically the 2017 congress has painted the 2025 congress into a corner.

As far as playing games with the tax code, yes. The democrats would love to have a chip they could play where they could say "we will give you back some of the corporate taxes that expire, but you have to agree to a sh*tload more spending." They dont have that chip to play now. You, being a newfound deficit hawk, should applaud this move.

Quote:5. I'd love to see 4% growth!!!!!

Then I'm not sure why you voted for Obama....twice.

Quote:6. Running deficits and increasing the national debt in a recession are often (maybe always) needed. Trying to reduce them during a good economy is needed as well.

I'm fairly certain that cash for clunkers and the blown money on Solyndra and other failed companies had nothing to do with the economy recovering, especially since the economy was already recovered prior to that spending occurring.

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:07 AM)Kronke Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 10:17 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  The devil is in the details. I think the middle class will mostly benefit in the short run, but in the long run there are major problems.
1. Remember that the individual tax cuts expire in 2025.
2. The tax bill increases the national debt.
3. Does the future congress extend the tax cuts in 2025?
4. Will the economy grow at 3.4.5.6 percent a year like the GOP predicts or is it more likely to run around
1-3 percent at best as most economists suggest.
5. What happens to the deficit and national debt?
6. What about SS, medicare and medicaid? Are cuts on the way?

1. So no years of tax relief is better than 8 years? Weak argument.
2. You don't know that.
3. Depends on who is in charge. Socialist idiot bernie sanders says if the dems are, corporate rates will go back up.
4. We're already at 3.9%.
5. See #2.
6. President Trump has always said he's against cuts to those programs, and he's kept his word on everything so far.

1. Why not a sunset on the business rate as well or instead?
2. 1.45 trillion according the the congressional study.
3. We aren't at 3.9% and you will be hard pressed to find an economist that thinks 3% is realistic. Historical data as well doesn't indicate 3% realistic.
4. The national debt will be affected by this tax bill.
5. President Trump constantly contradicts himself.

I disagree, but I'll look at it from the perspective of TDS:

No, he doesn't contradict himself on the issues. Even fake news cnn had to admit, he's doing (or trying to do) what he promised.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/d...index.html

The ignorant thing that the left is engaging in here, and they failed to learn their lesson from the bailouts.....

Is that the putting or not putting of deadlines on things encourages or discourages behavior.

The entire reason why Obama's bailouts did so much for the wealthy and so little in terms of job creation (relative to the amount of money spent and the expectations) is that Obama warned the businesses getting the bailouts that he would eventually come back after them to pay it back.... so of course they used it for short-term things that help their stock prices and bonuses, but don't create as many jobs. To compound the problem, he never DID go back after the money... which is why the wealth gap exploded. This plan (while far from perfect) seems to recognize that and doesn't do such a thing.

Businesses seeking to invest in job creation usually need a multi-year pay-back plan just to break even. This plan opens that door that Obama and the left wouldn't... and yet still (likely for political reasons, which I don't like, but it is how the game is played) keeps the door open for a future political battle for the middle class.... where the left will likely want to quietly end these cuts and the right will want to extend them.

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

None...

(12-18-2017 11:31 AM)Kronke Wrote:  

That is 3.3 for the 3rd quarter, not 3.9 and not for one year but 1/4 of a year. I certainly hope we have very high growth rates. I just don't think we should base our numbers on extremely rosy projections that haven't historically been seen.

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  1. Why not a sunset on the business rate as well or instead?

Because that discourages investment in long-term job creation... something demonstrated very clearly by the stimulus.

Quote:2. 1.45 trillion according the the congressional study.

which is still vastly less than it increased under Obama.

Quote:3. We aren't at 3.9% and you will be hard pressed to find an economist that thinks 3% is realistic. Historical data as well doesn't indicate 3% realistic.

Then why the argument from the left over IPAB?

Moreover, that's not true. We spent most of the years between 1960 and 2005 above 3%, often double that. From 1993-2000 (coming out of our last recession) we were above that rate (eyeballing it).

and of course, if you change the inputs, you change the predictions.

Quote:
4. The national debt will be affected by this tax bill.

The national debt will be affected if you DON'T pass the bill as well. The question is, will this increase or decrease economic activity? And every estimate says it will. The debate is over whether it increases it more than it costs... and again none of us are qualified to debate that and estimates will vary widely.

Quote:5. President Trump constantly contradicts himself.

Presidents aren't dictators.

(12-18-2017 11:57 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

Quote:5. President Trump constantly contradicts himself.

Presidents aren't dictators.

You have to forgive him. He's used to Obama legislating by executive fiat rather than how our government legally works.

(12-18-2017 11:43 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

None...

How are they going to pay for the trillions of dollars they just added to the deficit?

(12-18-2017 12:02 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:43 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

None...

How are they going to pay for the trillions of dollars they just added to the deficit?

The same way we've been paying for it for 8 years?

(12-18-2017 12:02 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:43 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

None...

How are they going to pay for the trillions of dollars they just added to the deficit?

How about we wait and see if the economy picks up enough and increases taxes collected so it doesn't really add to the deficit.

How come you never said any of this when Obama was upping the deficit by 8 trillion........

(12-18-2017 12:02 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:43 AM)WalkThePlank Wrote:  

(12-18-2017 11:22 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  It says I would save almost $1000.

I wonder however how much Social Security and Medicare I will lose.

None...

How are they going to pay for the trillions of dollars they just added to the deficit?

I love how you're a budget hawk now after obama doubled the debt in 8 years, but how many trillions of dollars will be repatriated? How much additional revenue will these cuts spur?

Please show your work.

$233.00 less per month of the fruits of our labor stolen from us in my house. I consider that a good thing..but..still too damn much.

Im going to hoard my savings in jars..bury them and never spend it........not.