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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1721
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 12:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 08:39 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 07:41 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Good news. I hope we can go all solar soon, and avoid more hurricanes.

Huh?

Just poking the bear. Some people are blaming Harvey and Irma on man-caused global warming, so it stands to reason that mankind reducing their CO2emissions would help stop hurricanes, right?


Just to forstall all the BS, I believe the current warming of the globe is mostly natural cycle, but exacerbated by Man.

Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf
09-14-2017 04:31 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1722
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 12:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 08:39 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Huh?

Just poking the bear. Some people are blaming Harvey and Irma on man-caused global warming, so it stands to reason that mankind reducing their CO2emissions would help stop hurricanes, right?


Just to forstall all the BS, I believe the current warming of the globe is mostly natural cycle, but exacerbated by Man.

Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Too bad we don't have IKE scores on the 1900 Galveston storm or the 1935 Labor Day Hurricane.
09-14-2017 04:51 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1723
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 04:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 12:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just poking the bear. Some people are blaming Harvey and Irma on man-caused global warming, so it stands to reason that mankind reducing their CO2emissions would help stop hurricanes, right?


Just to forstall all the BS, I believe the current warming of the globe is mostly natural cycle, but exacerbated by Man.

Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Too bad we don't have IKE scores on the 1900 Galveston storm or the 1935 Labor Day Hurricane.

Yeah - it would be very interesting. Unfortunately we do not have the data we would need to evaluate those storms.

One just very basic example of why I think IKE is a good method, is that it ranks both Katrina and Sandy very highly at the time of landfall despite the fact that they were a Cat 3 and Cat 1, respectively. Let, due to a number of different factors, the damage they induced greatly exceeded the strength of their winds.
09-14-2017 04:59 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1724
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 12:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 08:39 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Huh?

Just poking the bear. Some people are blaming Harvey and Irma on man-caused global warming, so it stands to reason that mankind reducing their CO2emissions would help stop hurricanes, right?


Just to forstall all the BS, I believe the current warming of the globe is mostly natural cycle, but exacerbated by Man.

Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Thx.

I think this is a good measure. But it leaves off a dimension if the issue is effects from climate change. It does an instantaneous volumetric integration of a storm, which is highly valuable for safety and damage issues for people in the path.

But, the proper measure of the true energy for climate change purposes should be the total integration not just through the three volumetric dimensions, but through the time dimension as well.

Of course you would have to do a somewhat 'artificial' bound on the time dimension, but they already introduced that through the edge conditions of the defined volume already.

Thanks for the links Lad.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2017 05:19 PM by tanqtonic.)
09-14-2017 05:02 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1725
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 05:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 12:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Just poking the bear. Some people are blaming Harvey and Irma on man-caused global warming, so it stands to reason that mankind reducing their CO2emissions would help stop hurricanes, right?


Just to forstall all the BS, I believe the current warming of the globe is mostly natural cycle, but exacerbated by Man.

Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Thx.

I think this is a good measure. But it leaves off a dimension. It does a volumetric integration of a storm. But, the true energy should be the total integration not just through the three volumetric dimensions, but through the time dimension as well.

Of course you would have to do a somewhat 'artificial' bound on the time dimension, but they already introduced that through the edge conditions of the defined volume already.

Thanks for the links Lad.

No problem.

I don't think time matters much when you're talking about initial impact and how powerful the storm is when it makes landfall. But, as a storm like Harvey shows, the time period can be a significant factor at some point.
09-14-2017 05:16 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #1726
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 05:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 01:28 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Anyone who is literally blaming the formation of the hurricanes on global warming is an idiot.

I've seen plenty of people say, without much thought, that they were caused by global warming. Now, if they mean the former, then yeah, idiots. However, if they mean the size, scale, scope, etc were exacerbated by global warming, that's another thing. I'll be intrigued to see how high their IKE score is and where they fall in historical context. Both Harvey and Irma were very large and very powerful hurricanes that likely score very high on that scale (which is a much better evaluation of a hurricane's strength, IMO).

Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Thx.

I think this is a good measure. But it leaves off a dimension. It does a volumetric integration of a storm. But, the true energy should be the total integration not just through the three volumetric dimensions, but through the time dimension as well.

Of course you would have to do a somewhat 'artificial' bound on the time dimension, but they already introduced that through the edge conditions of the defined volume already.

Thanks for the links Lad.

No problem.

I don't think time matters much when you're talking about initial impact and how powerful the storm is when it makes landfall. But, as a storm like Harvey shows, the time period can be a significant factor at some point.

Edited my response for clarity above while you typed this in -- for studies in climate change the total time * energy is the issue, not the instantaneous energy. That would be the true measure to determine if the total energies for storms were in fact increasing as a result.

For safety issues the instantaneous rating is far more important.
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2017 05:24 PM by tanqtonic.)
09-14-2017 05:23 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1727
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 05:23 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 05:02 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Care to post a link to exactly what an IKE score is. Google searches bring up scads of stories on Hurricane Ike, but nothing I could spot on a "IKE score hurricane strength".

TIA.

IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

Thx.

I think this is a good measure. But it leaves off a dimension. It does a volumetric integration of a storm. But, the true energy should be the total integration not just through the three volumetric dimensions, but through the time dimension as well.

Of course you would have to do a somewhat 'artificial' bound on the time dimension, but they already introduced that through the edge conditions of the defined volume already.

Thanks for the links Lad.

No problem.

I don't think time matters much when you're talking about initial impact and how powerful the storm is when it makes landfall. But, as a storm like Harvey shows, the time period can be a significant factor at some point.

Edited my response for clarity above while you typed this in -- for studies in climate change the total time * energy is the issue, not the instantaneous energy. That would be the true measure to determine if the total energies for storms were in fact increasing as a result.

For safety issues the instantaneous rating is far more important.

I see your point, but I don't think IKE was developed specifically to evaluate climate change effects.
09-14-2017 08:39 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #1728
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 04:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Too bad we don't have IKE scores on the 1900 Galveston storm or the 1935 Labor Day Hurricane.

Maybe we could recreate them from the satellite photos -- surely those are archived somewhere?
09-15-2017 06:40 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #1729
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

This is really cool. I know more than the average person about national research labs, and yet I had never heard of AOML. Poking through their website, it looks like they have a lot of PhDs on the staff, including the top two positions. Evidently, the third position is an officer in NOAA's Commissioned Officer Corps, which I suspect is the least-known component of America's uniformed services. Evidently it dates back to the use of civilian coast surveyors in the US Navy during wartime in the 19th century. During World War I, a commissioned corps was created so that the surveyors would not be considered spies if they were captured.
09-15-2017 06:55 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1730
RE: Trump Administration
(09-15-2017 06:55 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 04:31 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  IKE stands for Integrated Kinetic Energy.

https://www.wired.com/2012/11/what-is-th...f-a-storm/

http://theconversation.com/there-are-bet...e-is-40137

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/ike/

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/Powell/BAMS..._final.pdf

This is really cool. I know more than the average person about national research labs, and yet I had never heard of AOML. Poking through their website, it looks like they have a lot of PhDs on the staff, including the top two positions. Evidently, the third position is an officer in NOAA's Commissioned Officer Corps, which I suspect is the least-known component of America's uniformed services. Evidently it dates back to the use of civilian coast surveyors in the US Navy during wartime in the 19th century. During World War I, a commissioned corps was created so that the surveyors would not be considered spies if they were captured.

I'm lucky enough to be engaged to a rather smart PhD who does research on storm risk/surge/flooding/etc, so I get to pick up a few tidbits of knowledge here and there. She doesn't do research in IKE scores, but we've talked about them before because of how disconnected the SS scale is to damage outcomes. I can at least keep up with research topics like this, now when she starts going on about Bayesian networks, that's where I start lagging behind.
09-15-2017 07:21 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1731
RE: Trump Administration
(09-14-2017 08:38 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 07:36 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-14-2017 06:48 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Mnuchin requested the use of a private, government plane for his honeymoon travels.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/treasury-...d=49777076

Ironically, in the post his wife made on social media after someone criticized her, she explicitly stated how the government didn't pay for their honeymoon travel. I'm guessing that was fresh on her mind because the government wouldn't let them fleece the American people.

Not the first

At least Mnuchin canceled his request before boarding.

Apples to oranges. From doing a bit more digging, Pelosi using an Air Force jet for official business is the same process that Speakers of the House used prior to her arrival. It wasn't until Boehner self-imposed a private jet ban that this did not become common place.

I don't think it's common practice for Secretaries of the Treasury to use private jets for honeymoon travel.

How about a little context there, or do you just blindly support everything that this admin does?

edit: And for reference
Quote:As second in line to the presidency, the speaker of the House is allowed use of an Air Force jet to travel around the country. When Boehner (R-Ohio) took the speakership in 2011, he vowed to not use the jet. When Boehner (R-Ohio) took the speakership in 2011, he vowed to not use the jet. On Friday, Ryan's office told POLITICO that he would not use the jet, either. Boehner's prohibition did not extend to overseas travel.

Nancy Pelosi caught flak when, as speaker, she flew home to San Francisco on a military airplane. That prompted Boehner's decision to impose the ban.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/the-gavel/...jet-215402

And now it comes out that Tom Price, Sec of HHS, took a $25,000 trip on a private jet from D.C. to Philly. That seems like a good, effective, and efficient use of tax payer dollars.
09-20-2017 08:43 AM
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Post: #1732
RE: Trump Administration
South Dakota Republican posts "All Lives Splatter" Meme of car running over protestors, saying "I think this is a movement we can all support."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...683589001/

Stay classy Republicans!

As an aside, it has always struck me as odd that the Republicans in may facebook feed often post odes to "freedom" and "liberty" and how great it is to have them and next a post about how if you are protesting or otherwise criticizing 'Merica you should GTFO.
09-20-2017 01:25 PM
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Post: #1733
RE: Trump Administration
"Trump, at a lunch with African leaders, refers to the non-existent country of 'Nambia.'"

https://twitter.com/davidmackau/status/9...6799099904
09-20-2017 02:20 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1734
RE: Trump Administration
(09-20-2017 01:25 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  South Dakota Republican posts "All Lives Splatter" Meme of car running over protestors, saying "I think this is a movement we can all support."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...683589001/

Stay classy Republicans!

As an aside, it has always struck me as odd that the Republicans in may facebook feed often post odes to "freedom" and "liberty" and how great it is to have them and next a post about how if you are protesting or otherwise criticizing 'Merica you should GTFO.

In a similar vein, I've never understood the logic that equates criticism of something with either a loathing of it, or being unsupportive of it. It is not outside one's abilities to both think that a country is flawed and still want to be proud of it, contribute to it, be a part of it, etc.
09-20-2017 02:32 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #1735
RE: Trump Administration
(09-20-2017 02:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 01:25 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  South Dakota Republican posts "All Lives Splatter" Meme of car running over protestors, saying "I think this is a movement we can all support."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...683589001/

Stay classy Republicans!

As an aside, it has always struck me as odd that the Republicans in may facebook feed often post odes to "freedom" and "liberty" and how great it is to have them and next a post about how if you are protesting or otherwise criticizing 'Merica you should GTFO.

In a similar vein, I've never understood the logic that equates criticism of something with either a loathing of it, or being unsupportive of it. It is not outside one's abilities to both think that a country is flawed and still want to be proud of it, contribute to it, be a part of it, etc.

I can't speak for others, but here are a few thoughts:
- Yes it is fine (and healthy and necessary) to think that the country is flawed -- not least because it damn sure is.
- But some folks not only criticize national flaws, but seek to denigrate the very symbols of the nation. That is NOT cool. It is legal, and protected, but it is not cool.
- It just so happens that national-symbol-denigrating is a tactic of the left much more than of the right. The dichotomy probably wasn't always so pronounced; the images of American flags carried proudly in civil rights rallies come to mind.
- Of course, the fact that leftists do it makes rightists hate it, and the fact that rightists hate it makes leftists do it (proving again that the best way to deal with obnoxiousness is to ignore it). Each entrenches its view that the other side is crackpots for thinking the way they do.

And to really go out on a limb, it seems that there is some modicum of moral (if not legal) truth to the idea that if you despise a place so much that you would denigrate its most important symbols, maybe you really have slipped from civic disagreement to irreconcilable malcontentment, and perhaps you should go somewhere else. Freedom of movement is every bit as time-honored here as freedom of speech (funny how those go together: the countries that won't let you speak are also the ones that won't let you leave). At any rate, this nation of immigrants is entitled to wonder: if you hate a place (any place) that much, why would you stay? Conversely, if you don't really hate it that much, but just want (as most of us do) to perfect it, why do you have to go around denigrating its symbols?

Anyway, just thinking aloud.
09-20-2017 05:10 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1736
RE: Trump Administration
(09-20-2017 05:10 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 02:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 01:25 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  South Dakota Republican posts "All Lives Splatter" Meme of car running over protestors, saying "I think this is a movement we can all support."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati...683589001/

Stay classy Republicans!

As an aside, it has always struck me as odd that the Republicans in may facebook feed often post odes to "freedom" and "liberty" and how great it is to have them and next a post about how if you are protesting or otherwise criticizing 'Merica you should GTFO.

In a similar vein, I've never understood the logic that equates criticism of something with either a loathing of it, or being unsupportive of it. It is not outside one's abilities to both think that a country is flawed and still want to be proud of it, contribute to it, be a part of it, etc.

I can't speak for others, but here are a few thoughts:
- Yes it is fine (and healthy and necessary) to think that the country is flawed -- not least because it damn sure is.
- But some folks not only criticize national flaws, but seek to denigrate the very symbols of the nation. That is NOT cool. It is legal, and protected, but it is not cool.
- It just so happens that national-symbol-denigrating is a tactic of the left much more than of the right. The dichotomy probably wasn't always so pronounced; the images of American flags carried proudly in civil rights rallies come to mind.
- Of course, the fact that leftists do it makes rightists hate it, and the fact that rightists hate it makes leftists do it (proving again that the best way to deal with obnoxiousness is to ignore it). Each entrenches its view that the other side is crackpots for thinking the way they do.

And to really go out on a limb, it seems that there is some modicum of moral (if not legal) truth to the idea that if you despise a place so much that you would denigrate its most important symbols, maybe you really have slipped from civic disagreement to irreconcilable malcontentment, and perhaps you should go somewhere else. Freedom of movement is every bit as time-honored here as freedom of speech (funny how those go together: the countries that won't let you speak are also the ones that won't let you leave). At any rate, this nation of immigrants is entitled to wonder: if you hate a place (any place) that much, why would you stay? Conversely, if you don't really hate it that much, but just want (as most of us do) to perfect it, why do you have to go around denigrating its symbols?

Anyway, just thinking aloud.

It sounds like you're primarily commenting on people/protestors that do things like burn/vandalize symbols (e.g. The flag), as opposed to just protesting/voicing their opinion in general.

I agree that you can go too far, and at some point one must wonder why stay?
09-20-2017 09:51 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #1737
RE: Trump Administration
(09-20-2017 09:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It sounds like you're primarily commenting on people/protestors that do things like burn/vandalize symbols (e.g. The flag), as opposed to just protesting/voicing their opinion in general.

Yes, that's exactly and only what I was talking about. I thought that was the premise you were asking about it -- but I see now that it is not. My mistake.
09-20-2017 10:22 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1738
RE: Trump Administration
(09-20-2017 10:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 09:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It sounds like you're primarily commenting on people/protestors that do things like burn/vandalize symbols (e.g. The flag), as opposed to just protesting/voicing their opinion in general.

Yes, that's exactly and only what I was talking about. I thought that was the premise you were asking about it -- but I see now that it is not. My mistake.

No need to apologize. Your point is pretty valid, in my opinion. However, I wonder where the line is that demarks when it's ok/isn't ok. For each person that's different and Colin Kapernick (sp?) is a great example of that. He was silently and non-violently protesting at his games by not standing for the national anthem and some believe that this was such a disrespectful act that he didn't belong in the NFL.
09-21-2017 07:36 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #1739
RE: Trump Administration
(09-21-2017 07:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 10:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 09:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It sounds like you're primarily commenting on people/protestors that do things like burn/vandalize symbols (e.g. The flag), as opposed to just protesting/voicing their opinion in general.

Yes, that's exactly and only what I was talking about. I thought that was the premise you were asking about it -- but I see now that it is not. My mistake.

No need to apologize. Your point is pretty valid, in my opinion. However, I wonder where the line is that demarks when it's ok/isn't ok. For each person that's different and Colin Kapernick (sp?) is a great example of that. He was silently and non-violently protesting at his games by not standing for the national anthem and some believe that this was such a disrespectful act that he didn't belong in the NFL.

Disagree. He was at work,his actions caused problems for team management, and when he lost that job, other prospective employers decided the value he brought to a team was not worth the baggage he brought with him. Many an ex-teacher has learned the same lesson.

Personally, I have much less quarrel with his method of protesting as with his reasons for protesting.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

In any case, once his football skills are worth more to a team than the negative publicity, he will have a job.
09-21-2017 09:56 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #1740
RE: Trump Administration
(09-21-2017 09:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(09-21-2017 07:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 10:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(09-20-2017 09:51 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It sounds like you're primarily commenting on people/protestors that do things like burn/vandalize symbols (e.g. The flag), as opposed to just protesting/voicing their opinion in general.

Yes, that's exactly and only what I was talking about. I thought that was the premise you were asking about it -- but I see now that it is not. My mistake.

No need to apologize. Your point is pretty valid, in my opinion. However, I wonder where the line is that demarks when it's ok/isn't ok. For each person that's different and Colin Kapernick (sp?) is a great example of that. He was silently and non-violently protesting at his games by not standing for the national anthem and some believe that this was such a disrespectful act that he didn't belong in the NFL.

Disagree. He was at work,his actions caused problems for team management, and when he lost that job, other prospective employers decided the value he brought to a team was not worth the baggage he brought with him. Many an ex-teacher has learned the same lesson.

Personally, I have much less quarrel with his method of protesting as with his reasons for protesting.

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

In any case, once his football skills are worth more to a team than the negative publicity, he will have a job.

What are you disagreeing with? You literally agreed with my point, which is that Colin K. is a perfect example of how everyone has a different opinion of where the line between appropriate and inappropriate protests lands.

This example shows how you have a group of people who don't believe how/what he was protesting was appropriate, so Colin doesn't have a job (i.e. belong in the NFL). Yet you have another group of people who are vocally critical of the decision not to employ him.

Perhaps had he protested just on social media, or off the football field, an NFL owner would have found his presence palatable (after all, many owners employ people with serious criminal convictions that would get most average employees fired). But since he didn't do something overtly offensive (like burning the flag) it's in a gray area where there is disagreement on how the situation is being handled.
09-21-2017 10:16 AM
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