I think a prime example of what Frank is talking about is what happened with Texas/Oklahoma. The game got it's lowest rating in at least 15 years being on FS1. Like it or not, your casual fans just don't find FS1.

(10-28-2016 01:42 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think a prime example of what Frank is talking about is what happened with Texas/Oklahoma. The game got it's lowest rating in at least 15 years being on FS1. Like it or not, your casual fans just don't find FS1.

Exactly. You can even compare games within the Big 12 and Pac-12 directly week-to-week. Even though they are legitimately equal packages in terms of the quality of games, the games that are on ESPN get much higher ratings.

stever,

Yeah but the NFL ratings are down too. How can we prove it was FS1 and not just general lack of interest in football????


Frank,

What's "much" higher?


Sorry, but it's just very hard to swallow.

"Let's see, what's on TV now at 11pm??? OK, flipping channels .... I have both ESPN/2 and FS1 in my package ..... well, I see we have UCLA vs Utah on FS1 ... mmm, meh, pass ...... oh look at that! USC vs Colorado on ESPN!! Wahoo!! I'm in!!"

VERY hard to swallow .....

(10-28-2016 02:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  stever,

Yeah but the NFL ratings are down too. How can we prove it was FS1 and not just general lack of interest in football????


Frank,

What's "much" higher?


Sorry, but it's just very hard to swallow.

"Let's see, what's on TV now at 11pm??? OK, flipping channels .... I have both ESPN/2 and FS1 in my package ..... well, I see we have UCLA vs Utah on FS1 ... mmm, meh, pass ...... oh look at that! USC vs Colorado on ESPN!! Wahoo!! I'm in!!"

VERY hard to swallow .....

but college ratings are actually up this year.

The thing is, a lot of folks just default turn on ESPN first before everything else. And that's what FS1 is fighting beyond anything else. Using your example- they would go USC/Colorado on ESPN, and stop right there. Never even turn on FS1.

It's easy to criticize the Big East's decision to not pursue and/or sublicense games to ESPN (instead of CBS) when they originally made their deal with Fox, but 2013 was a very acrimonious time for both sides (Big East and ESPN). On one hand, you had the old Big East (with the football schools) turn down a huge lucrative deal that would have kept the status quo and allowed the football/non-football schools' union to continue. And then, you have ESPN, in hopes of increasing the value of one of their other products, effectively gut and sell off the the most valuable pieces of the old Big East to the ACC, with other schools managing to get lifelines. Couple that with the decision for the Big East to cut all association with ESPN and sign a huge deal with FOX, as well as ESPN broadcasting specials on how the 2012 tournament was the "last" Big East tournament ever, there was just too many bruised egos and stubborn sides to get anything out of it.

Having said that, FOX has been an unbelievable partner for the Big East. Their promotion, advertising and marketing for the conference is way more than ESPN would have ever given to the C7/New Big East - even if they did manage to somehow keep it. The chipped shoulder for the C7/NBE was a huge part in the leagues reorganization and "us vs. them" mentality the league has taken since the split, and Villanova's win last year was the final blow in cementing the Big East's place as a power basketball conference and survivor in the collegiate sports landscape.

The fact that the NCAA Champion last year was a basketball program that ESPN didn't hold the rights to was a giant step towards true competition for the network in Fox. Competition for ESPN is great for viewers, and will end up being an advantage for all college conferences in negotiations and contract talks in the coming years.

(10-28-2016 02:03 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  stever,

Yeah but the NFL ratings are down too. How can we prove it was FS1 and not just general lack of interest in football????


Frank,

What's "much" higher?


Sorry, but it's just very hard to swallow.

"Let's see, what's on TV now at 11pm??? OK, flipping channels .... I have both ESPN/2 and FS1 in my package ..... well, I see we have UCLA vs Utah on FS1 ... mmm, meh, pass ...... oh look at that! USC vs Colorado on ESPN!! Wahoo!! I'm in!!"

VERY hard to swallow .....

Well, swallow hard, man. Just look at the TV ratings for all college football games this year:

http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/college-...v-ratings/

Look at how much higher ESPN games (we're not even talking about the ABC games) are than *over-the-air* Fox, much less FS1. With the exception of the first week of the season (when ESPN2's only college football game was an international 7:30 am ET in the morning because it had US Open coverage for the rest of the day), the top THREE *ESPN2* games (not the ones on the ESPN mothership) every single week has beaten the top rated FS1 game. The ratings difference is incredibly stark depending upon the channel in and of itself. G5 games on ESPN have been consistently beating P5 games on FS1 - that's how bad it is.

Frank,

How do those number defeat my original premise? Those aren't the exact same conditions. You're hand waiving a million variables.

My premise is basically: you create two parallel universes, and just flip-flop the games on the networks. The ratings should follow the events.


You and stever are practically evangelical about how that's false. Stever explains it that, for no good reason, people just freeze when ESPN comes on the screen. You explain it by saying ESPN cross-promotes like none other. Which of course assumes people even notice, if they're even paying attention on those other platforms ...

I'm very pessimistic in all of this.

I say, it's the event and nothing more.

Rome wasn't built in a day. FS1 is slowly moving to become the top alternative to ESPN and pass ESPN2 for #2 sports network. UFC and NASCAR are still excellent properties to have no matter how much they are trashed on here. More live sports properties they get it will just be the matches and races, which is very similar to what ESPN and ESPN2 has had for years.

(10-28-2016 04:23 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Rome wasn't built in a day. FS1 is slowly moving to become the top alternative to ESPN and pass ESPN2 for #2 sports network. UFC and NASCAR are still excellent properties to have no matter how much they are trashed on here. More live sports properties they get it will just be the matches and races, which is very similar to what ESPN and ESPN2 has had for years.

This EXACTLY. FS1 is ONLY 3 YEARS OLD! The fact that it already beat out ESPN for a full week in prime time and all day is a HUGE accomplishment. Add the Big Ten programming next year and FS1 will continue to grow. If it can get to a point where it matches ESPN2, that will be a huge victory.

FS1 is now in almost as many homes as ESPN and ESPN2. That's good news for Fox. But the bad news for them, and for all of the "cable" channels, is that even the most popular channels are in fewer and fewer U.S. households every year.

According to this article, Nielsen says that ESPN and ESPN2 are now in only 75% of U.S. households. FS1 is in 72% of households, while FS2 lags behind and is only in 43%.

FS1 is but a piece of the FOX Sports empire, to go along with the 20 FSN regional outlets, BTN and BIG FOX. The idea is to eventually be number two behind ESPiN. I don't have the numbers but I think some of these FSN outlets are getting big time carriage fees, of course they pay lots for rights as well. I'm sure these people have long term planning. FOX SPORTS 1 still doesn't even has its full compliment of programming. It isn't about being number 1 and never has been. It' about being number two in terms of a dedicated sports cable channel as part of the FOX SPORTS empire as a whole.

I think it's safe to say ESPiN vastly overpaid for just about everything in the inventory. I expect at some point in the next few years to see ESPN family of networks to shutter something like say ESPNnews channel and perhaps ESPN Classics in yet another round of cost cutting.

Nobody knows what the future landscape and viewing habits of the masses (especially young people) is going to be long term. Millions of youmg people don't even subscribe to cable and never will , even as they get older. Cord cutting is real and is going to continue. People can say whatever but those are REAL dollars. If you aren't seeing beyond the spin of what TEEVEE executive say and seeing the REAL hard financial data you really don't know. Disney overpaid for so many rights and it remains to be seen how that plays out long term because of so many factors. If some think bottom line and cost cutting aren't real they are mistaken. Just look it up fr yourselves, the fees for the NBA/NFL in particular, not to mentions the others.

I would love to see the REAL margins now as opposed to what was paid for all these rights that were locked up. I would also love to see the REAL numbers for the FOX Sports empire as a whole. I know lots of information is available but I'm not an accountant...you know accountants have a language and way of doing things only they understand.

(10-28-2016 10:04 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(10-28-2016 04:23 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Rome wasn't built in a day. FS1 is slowly moving to become the top alternative to ESPN and pass ESPN2 for #2 sports network. UFC and NASCAR are still excellent properties to have no matter how much they are trashed on here. More live sports properties they get it will just be the matches and races, which is very similar to what ESPN and ESPN2 has had for years.

This EXACTLY. FS1 is ONLY 3 YEARS OLD! The fact that it already beat out ESPN for a full week in prime time and all day is a HUGE accomplishment. Add the Big Ten programming next year and FS1 will continue to grow. If it can get to a point where it matches ESPN2, that will be a huge victory.

The Big Ten isn't going to be a magic elixir for FS1. It's just not. We're talking maybe like 1 game a week on FS1 for football, with maybe 3 games a week in basketball. That's really it. I mean- Fox gets 25 football games today- and you know half of those at least will be on Big Fox.

And the fact is, the LCS with the Cubs on FS1 was still down by 11% vs the ratings the LCS got with the Cubs last year. And that is the only reason why FS1 was #1 last week.

FS1 still has a marathon to go to get even close to ESPN2.

I like Cowherd's solo show in the morning, the FS1 simulcast of his radio show, but stuff like Embrace Debate - the Shannon show and the Whitlock/Cowherd shows - that's just trying to copy PTI. And if I want PTI I'll watch it not a copy (and I often do).

(10-28-2016 10:23 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  So you're against any conference that signs an exclusive deal with FS1.

What about conferences that sign exclusive deals with ESPN? Why is that ok?

ESPN is the king, FS1 is the bastard son, that gets the leftovers as the king pleases.

Wedge,

But when you start including WatchESPN app and whatever the Fox Sports app is called/will be called, and start including ESPN/FS1 on the new streaming payTV services ... it'll be back up.

I'm rooting for FoxSports as I'd like to see a solid competitor to ESPN. They need to change FoxSports Live back to a normal SportsCenter competitor instead of the gimped thing it has become. They should also consider reviving Best Damn on FS1.

(10-29-2016 11:31 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  I'm rooting for FoxSports as I'd like to see a solid competitor to ESPN. They need to change FoxSports Live back to a normal SportsCenter competitor instead of the gimped thing it has become. They should also consider reviving Best Damn on FS1.

ESPN knew it sort of worked, Scott Van Pelt show is a result of FS1. It's best SportsCenter by far.

(10-29-2016 01:39 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(10-29-2016 11:31 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  I'm rooting for FoxSports as I'd like to see a solid competitor to ESPN. They need to change FoxSports Live back to a normal SportsCenter competitor instead of the gimped thing it has become. They should also consider reviving Best Damn on FS1.

ESPN knew it sort of worked, Scott Van Pelt show is a result of FS1. It's best SportsCenter by far.

ESPN came up with 2 things that would be absolutely perfect for FS1. The Scott Van Pelt show- and then actually when FS1 came around - that Keith Olbermann show. No matter what you think about his politics- that show was perfect. And it would actually mesh perfectly with what FS1 does with the embrace debate genre. And SVP show is somewhat a reflection of that.

well, just saw the prime time ratings for last week...
1. ESPN: 2.9M
2. FNC: 2.8M
60. FS1: .209M

for FS1, it's up a bit from .193M the week before the playoffs. Not what FS1 wanted though....

(10-28-2016 02:36 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Frank,

How do those number defeat my original premise? Those aren't the exact same conditions. You're hand waiving a million variables.

My premise is basically: you create two parallel universes, and just flip-flop the games on the networks. The ratings should follow the events.


You and stever are practically evangelical about how that's false. Stever explains it that, for no good reason, people just freeze when ESPN comes on the screen. You explain it by saying ESPN cross-promotes like none other. Which of course assumes people even notice, if they're even paying attention on those other platforms ...

I'm very pessimistic in all of this.

I say, it's the event and nothing more.

You only need to look at the numbers in the link to know that's just not true.

Big XII conference games on ABC are averaging 3.708M viewers compared to a paltry 2.024M viewers on FOX - and that's with FOX having first choice of games this year.

Big XII conference games on ESPN cable channels (mostly ESPN2 and ESPNU) are drawing 830k viewers compared to 791k viewers on FS1 - and that's with the Red River Rivalry on FS1.

The story is the same with the Pac-12. ESPN easily outdrew FS1 this weekend even though FS1 had a huge mid-afternoon game between Utah and Washington this week. Last week, the late night Friday game on ESPN outdrew the mid-afternoon Saturday game on FOX OTA.

It's just not even close.