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ESE84 Online
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Post: #401
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 08:30 AM)Ranger Wrote:  An interesting dynamic. This board, which has generally supported JK, is so upset with DB that many posters seem to be making JK's handling of the DB situation a referendum on JK.


In agreement with Walt's point 5, if my memory serves me well, JK had more pressing problems than DB when he took over, especially the Braun situation, and he needed to resolve football in order to concentrate on the other problems. As Walt points out, on the surface, football seemed to a newcomer to be in capable hands, and the extension allowed JK to concentrate on the basketball situation

Unless I am giving JK more credit than he deserves, we can trust him to do the right thing, the best thing for Rice, given whatever constraints, financial or otherwise, which he and the department may be facing.

DB's performance is a referendum on JK and the BOT commitment to athletics. I agree that JK has another huge problem on his hands, and I trust change is coming after the Charlotte game ends.
11-15-2015 10:28 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #402
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:01 AM)WIowl Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 09:55 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 01:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other observation. The Stadium Club was about half as full for homecoming as it was for Army.

Given how sterile the Staium Club is, how beautiful the weather was, and how many friends were on campus forHomecoming who are not club members, I'd like to think it was a good sign that fewer people were ensconced in the club

Spin....

Or since it was homecoming there should be a greater number of club members present at the game, and even with visiting, there should have at least equaled the number present at the Army game.

I don't think so. Other events and groups outside the club were big factors, and the weather was a tremendous factor. I noticed that many club members who are indoor stalwarts were watching the game from outside yesterday (either just outside the club or with other groups of friends elsewhere in the stands) -- as well they should!

(11-15-2015 10:01 AM)WIowl Wrote:  The bigger issue is they were NOT happy.

I did not dispute that. I was just pleased to see more habiitually-indoor Rice fans choosing to be outside.
11-15-2015 10:30 AM
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ESE84 Online
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Post: #403
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:26 AM)talon owl Wrote:  I also very rarely leave early. Yesterday was an exception.

We have four season tickets and filled all seats through the Louisiana Tech game. The tipping point for us was Bailiff retreating into the locker room with three unused timeouts at halftime. We left after the MOB halftime show, did not attend the Southern Miss debacle, and won't be coming for Charlotte, either.
11-15-2015 10:33 AM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #404
RE: Rice USM game thread
I think the crowd yesterday was fine, and after some of the horrible weather games earlier in the year, some people were happy to be able to watch the game outdoors. But from the press box, you could see the line of cars leaving Rice Stadium's parking lot throughout the second half.

Next year will probably even be worse from a fans standpoint - in terms of people indoors watching the games in both the Stadium Club, R Room and then the new endzone facility. It wouldn't surprise me if we have close to 1000 people for every game in one of those three indoor facilities.
11-15-2015 10:39 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #405
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:01 AM)WIowl Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 09:55 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 01:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other observation. The Stadium Club was about half as full for homecoming as it was for Army.

Given how sterile the Staium Club is, how beautiful the weather was, and how many friends were on campus forHomecoming who are not club members, I'd like to think it was a good sign that fewer people were ensconced in the club

Spin....

Or since it was homecoming there should be a greater number of club members present at the game, and even with visiting, there should have at least equaled the number present at the Army game.

The bigger issue is they were NOT happy.

This was by far the largest turnout for the young alumni crowd. Unfortunately they were given a show that was not worth their money.

Good thing we threw a good tailgate at least.
11-15-2015 10:40 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #406
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:30 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:01 AM)WIowl Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 09:55 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 01:45 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  One other observation. The Stadium Club was about half as full for homecoming as it was for Army.

Given how sterile the Staium Club is, how beautiful the weather was, and how many friends were on campus forHomecoming who are not club members, I'd like to think it was a good sign that fewer people were ensconced in the club

Spin....

Or since it was homecoming there should be a greater number of club members present at the game, and even with visiting, there should have at least equaled the number present at the Army game.

I don't think so. Other events and groups outside the club were big factors, and the weather was a tremendous factor. I noticed that many club members who are indoor stalwarts were watching the game from outside yesterday (either just outside the club or with other groups of friends elsewhere in the stands) -- as well they should! And to be clear, I wasn't trying to make any point other than it's good to see people living life outside.

(11-15-2015 10:01 AM)WIowl Wrote:  The bigger issue is they were NOT happy.

I did not dispute that. I was just pleased to see more habiitually-indoor Rice fans choosing to be outside.
11-15-2015 10:56 AM
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Post: #407
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:15 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  In the last 25 years, I have left 3 games early. Nichols st (weather, horrific play and some personal reasons), UH 2012 and yesterday having decided to leave after the MOB, ran into someone, saw USM score their 7th. My disgust is complete.

You have a stronger stomach than me. I've left three games early just this season.
11-15-2015 10:58 AM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #408
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:58 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:15 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  In the last 25 years, I have left 3 games early. Nichols st (weather, horrific play and some personal reasons), UH 2012 and yesterday having decided to leave after the MOB, ran into someone, saw USM score their 7th. My disgust is complete.

You have a stronger stomach than me. I've left three games early just this season.

You're both smarter than I am - I stayed till the bitter end yesterday. 03-hissyfit
11-15-2015 11:33 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #409
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:58 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:15 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  In the last 25 years, I have left 3 games early. Nichols st (weather, horrific play and some personal reasons), UH 2012 and yesterday having decided to leave after the MOB, ran into someone, saw USM score their 7th. My disgust is complete.
You have a stronger stomach than me. I've left three games early just this season.

Working around rugby trips, I've been to two games. Left both at the half.

I really cannot stand to watch this team play. It's just so frustrating that it makes me physically ill.

I don't think Bailiff's approach can produce fewer than 4-5 losses per season on a consistent basis. He's had one year better than that out of nine, and five years worse. My expectations were much lower than that before 2012. My thinking about not firing him was that he had exceeded my expectations so hugely in 2012-14 that perhaps he could exceed them even more. What I saw yesterday is more back to what I have expected.

We have never defended the deep ball well in nine years. That is like the cardinal sin of building a defense. Letting that go uncorrected, and apparently unaddressed, for nine years, tells me that despite his defensive background, he isn't serious about developing a good defense.

We had a couple of years where our kicking game was mediocre, largely because of Boz and Martens. Other than those years around the middle of the Bailiff era, our special teams have been consistently awful. And that's with different coordinators, which tells me that Bailiff isn't serious about developing a strong kicking game either.

I don't understand what we are trying to do on offense. I think we are supposed to be trying to run the football. But we have these periods in big games where we abandon the run almost completely. Every time, the results have been the same--3 and outs or turnovers, with the defense giving up TDs going the other way. I don't know what the hell we are trying to do. I call what we do running plays instead of running an offense.

We have pretty consistently had sloppy, mistake-filled, ill-disciplined performances. I mentioned before, a friend who used to coach against Bailiff when he was at Texas State has told me that Bailiff's reputation around the Southland was that his teams played hard but were very sloppy and made a lot of mental errors. That was true of his Rice teams until yesterday. Yesterday, they did not play hard.

I don't know what the plan is. I can't see any evidence of attempting to win with defense, offense, or special teams, and I don't know what else there is, so I don't know how we plan to win. The only idea I can come up with is what someone suggested for Braun's approach, recruit better and hope to God it works. If that's the plan, the EZF will probably help. But we're not going to out recruit Texas. If we are going to line up and do the same things everybody else does, and they are doing it with better athletes, we're not going to win those games.

There is one other factor that I think is critical. This is the same one that I had in the forefront in 2009-2011: Timing. There will soon be another shift in the tectonic plates of college athletics. If the XII doesn't get a team into the playoffs this year (and if ND wins out they probably won't), they're going to look to expand. Yes the NCAA is looking at letting them have a championship game with fewer than 12 teams, but that's not really the issue (and the XII isn't that happy with a championship game anyway). The issue is that with everybody playing everybody and with Iowa State and Kansas and maybe K-State and WVA, and this year Texas, their strength of schedule sucks. They need to add a couple of teams to bump up everybody's SOS, two divisions with an 8-game conference slate lets them add an intersectional game to bolster schedule strength, instead of just playing weak sisters OOC. Where that enters in is that UH will make a strong push to go to the XII at that point. Our chances of that are nil, but there might be a move to fill UH's slot in the American. That would actually be a pretty good place for us, with the likes of SMU and Tulsa and Tulane and Navy and Memphis, at least schools that people have heard of and that have some semblance of tradition from the past. If we're to be considered for that slot, we need to move up in football and basketball, and in a hurry. We missed any serious consideration for the last move because of 2009-11. If we had 4 or 5 straight bowl appearances, we would probably get strong consideration, but if we end up 5-7 or 6-6 this year, and no better the next, then we are probably punting another opportunity to move up. Timing is critical, and this ship needs to be righted in a hurry.

I guess where I am is that at lest up until UTEP, I was thinking Bailiff would get us into a 4th straight bowl and winning season, and that would position us nicely going forward. That expectation has changed over the last two weeks. He is not going to continue to exceed my expectations. We need someone with a plan. If he is not going to put together a plan, and then bust his butt to sell that to players, coaches, administrators, students, alumni, and casual fans, and then make that plan happen, we are not going where we need to go.

We simply cannot have efforts like yesterday. I think he has to go. I'd reconsider if we finish 3-0. But that's what it's going to take, minimum. And that is not going to happen.
11-15-2015 11:36 AM
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Vegas Owl Offline
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Post: #410
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 11:33 AM)Antarius Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:58 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:15 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  In the last 25 years, I have left 3 games early. Nichols st (weather, horrific play and some personal reasons), UH 2012 and yesterday having decided to leave after the MOB, ran into someone, saw USM score their 7th. My disgust is complete.

You have a stronger stomach than me. I've left three games early just this season.

You're both smarter than I am - I stayed till the bitter end yesterday. 03-hissyfit

Masochist...03-nutkick
11-15-2015 12:31 PM
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greyowl72 Offline
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Post: #411
RE: Rice USM game thread
Geez. Leave it to Owl69 to put things in perspective and make sense.
Unfortunately, after watching this team this season.. Especially the last two weeks... I don't think we win the next two games. Much less a bowl game.
That might make Dr Ks decision a bit easier.
Doesn't do much for the move out of CUSA.
11-15-2015 12:37 PM
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Bay Area Owl Offline
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Post: #412
RE: Rice USM game thread
Regarding JK extending Bailiff's contract after the 2013 season, JK bears full responsibility for that decision. He was under no pressure to extend Bailiff's contract, except from perhaps Bailiff and his agent. No other D1 program was looking to hire Bailiff, and JK should have considered why no one was seriously interested in Bailiff.

It was because Bailiff's overall record is miserable. His teams aren't exciting and don't even look well-coached. JK only had to look at the horrific period from 2009 to mid-2012. JK had to know that Bailiff was on the verge of being fired after the Memphis game in 2012 (with a competent AD --not Greenspan-- Bailiff would have been gone after that game). Bailiff ran off some wins against weak opponents to rescue the 2012 season from terrible to mediocre. In hindsight, the 2012 SMU and Air Force teams, the two 'best' wins of 2012, weren't particularly good at all.

I'll concede the conference championship win over Marshall in 2013 was Bailiff's best performance, but the wins during the 2013 season were almost all against weak opposition. Tulsa was struggling that year, and we still lost to UH and UNT. I remember the ugliness of that win over a dreadful Tulane to qualify for the championship game. Oh, and the Mississippi State bowl game was a horrific performance, where Edmondson and Lynch utterly failed in their audition as OCs. What does Bailiff do? He keeps Edmondson and Lynch as OCs: yet another warning sign of Bailiff's lack of drive for high performance and success. JK should have been aware of all this; so yes, extending Bailiff is on JK.

JK needs to fix his expensive mistake, but I think he understands the implications of not fixing this mistake.
11-15-2015 12:47 PM
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RiceFootball2K5 Offline
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Post: #413
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 11:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:58 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  
(11-15-2015 10:15 AM)texowl2 Wrote:  In the last 25 years, I have left 3 games early. Nichols st (weather, horrific play and some personal reasons), UH 2012 and yesterday having decided to leave after the MOB, ran into someone, saw USM score their 7th. My disgust is complete.
You have a stronger stomach than me. I've left three games early just this season.

Working around rugby trips, I've been to two games. Left both at the half.

I really cannot stand to watch this team play. It's just so frustrating that it makes me physically ill.

I don't think Bailiff's approach can produce fewer than 4-5 losses per season on a consistent basis. He's had one year better than that out of nine, and five years worse. My expectations were much lower than that before 2012. My thinking about not firing him was that he had exceeded my expectations so hugely in 2012-14 that perhaps he could exceed them even more. What I saw yesterday is more back to what I have expected.

We have never defended the deep ball well in nine years. That is like the cardinal sin of building a defense. Letting that go uncorrected, and apparently unaddressed, for nine years, tells me that despite his defensive background, he isn't serious about developing a good defense.

We had a couple of years where our kicking game was mediocre, largely because of Boz and Martens. Other than those years around the middle of the Bailiff era, our special teams have been consistently awful. And that's with different coordinators, which tells me that Bailiff isn't serious about developing a strong kicking game either.

I don't understand what we are trying to do on offense. I think we are supposed to be trying to run the football. But we have these periods in big games where we abandon the run almost completely. Every time, the results have been the same--3 and outs or turnovers, with the defense giving up TDs going the other way. I don't know what the hell we are trying to do. I call what we do running plays instead of running an offense.

We have pretty consistently had sloppy, mistake-filled, ill-disciplined performances. I mentioned before, a friend who used to coach against Bailiff when he was at Texas State has told me that Bailiff's reputation around the Southland was that his teams played hard but were very sloppy and made a lot of mental errors. That was true of his Rice teams until yesterday. Yesterday, they did not play hard.

I don't know what the plan is. I can't see any evidence of attempting to win with defense, offense, or special teams, and I don't know what else there is, so I don't know how we plan to win. The only idea I can come up with is what someone suggested for Braun's approach, recruit better and hope to God it works. If that's the plan, the EZF will probably help. But we're not going to out recruit Texas. If we are going to line up and do the same things everybody else does, and they are doing it with better athletes, we're not going to win those games.

There is one other factor that I think is critical. This is the same one that I had in the forefront in 2009-2011: Timing. There will soon be another shift in the tectonic plates of college athletics. If the XII doesn't get a team into the playoffs this year (and if ND wins out they probably won't), they're going to look to expand. Yes the NCAA is looking at letting them have a championship game with fewer than 12 teams, but that's not really the issue (and the XII isn't that happy with a championship game anyway). The issue is that with everybody playing everybody and with Iowa State and Kansas and maybe K-State and WVA, and this year Texas, their strength of schedule sucks. They need to add a couple of teams to bump up everybody's SOS, two divisions with an 8-game conference slate lets them add an intersectional game to bolster schedule strength, instead of just playing weak sisters OOC. Where that enters in is that UH will make a strong push to go to the XII at that point. Our chances of that are nil, but there might be a move to fill UH's slot in the American. That would actually be a pretty good place for us, with the likes of SMU and Tulsa and Tulane and Navy and Memphis, at least schools that people have heard of and that have some semblance of tradition from the past. If we're to be considered for that slot, we need to move up in football and basketball, and in a hurry. We missed any serious consideration for the last move because of 2009-11. If we had 4 or 5 straight bowl appearances, we would probably get strong consideration, but if we end up 5-7 or 6-6 this year, and no better the next, then we are probably punting another opportunity to move up. Timing is critical, and this ship needs to be righted in a hurry.

I guess where I am is that at lest up until UTEP, I was thinking Bailiff would get us into a 4th straight bowl and winning season, and that would position us nicely going forward. That expectation has changed over the last two weeks. He is not going to continue to exceed my expectations. We need someone with a plan. If he is not going to put together a plan, and then bust his butt to sell that to players, coaches, administrators, students, alumni, and casual fans, and then make that plan happen, we are not going where we need to go.

We simply cannot have efforts like yesterday. I think he has to go. I'd reconsider if we finish 3-0. But that's what it's going to take, minimum. And that is not going to happen.

Hit the nail on the head.
"The only idea I can come up with is what someone suggested for Braun's approach, recruit better and hope to God it works. If that's the plan, the EZF will probably help. But we're not going to out recruit Texas. If we are going to line up and do the same things everybody else does, and they are doing it with better athletes, we're not going to win those games." That is the Bailiff plan. It's always been the plan. It's not going to work, and it never was.
11-15-2015 12:49 PM
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Middle Ages Offline
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Post: #414
RE: Rice USM game thread
I am not defending Bailiff in the least bit, because yesterday was inexcusable and that is on him. I agree with Owl numbers 100% in that last post he made, but if/when we fire him and his staff it has to be because we are making an institutional decision to improve. And that must include a bigger financial commitment to the program, in the form of additional capital improvement to the stadium and an increase in coaching salaries and recruiting budgets. I think the decision to hang on to Edmonston and Lynch was a mistake too, but I am pretty sure that economics played a big part in that decision. I'd still have made a different decision- and hired an unproven but promising young up-and-comer or a HS coach for the OC role at the same salary- but that's probably not ideal either. Go watch Tommy West's press conference after he was fired at Memphis, and all of that applies to us as well. I think we need a new staff but just as importantly- if we want to have any chance to move out of our horrible conference situation- we have to make the institutional commitment too. Otherwise this is window dressing.
Lest anyone think that is a defense of Bailiff and/or yesterday- I believe that there are several HS staffs that we could replace our current staff with at lower pay and not be worse off. We might not have the athletes to beat USM (an indictment in and of itself) but we should never, ever, have a game like yesterday, no matter how outmanned we are. Effort, execution, assignments, discipline, heart- none of those take talent.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2015 01:21 PM by Middle Ages.)
11-15-2015 01:20 PM
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Post: #415
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 01:20 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I am not defending Bailiff in the least bit, because yesterday was inexcusable and that is on him. I agree with Owl numbers 100% in that last post he made, but if/when we fire him and his staff it has to be because we are making an institutional decision to improve. And that must include a bigger financial commitment to the program, in the form of additional capital improvement to the stadium and an increase in coaching salaries and recruiting budgets. I think the decision to hang on to Edmonston and Lynch was a mistake too, but I am pretty sure that economics played a big part in that decision. I'd still have made a different decision- and hired an unproven but promising young up-and-comer or a HS coach for the OC role at the same salary- but that's probably not ideal either. Go watch Tommy West's press conference after he was fired at Memphis, and all of that applies to us as well. I think we need a new staff but just as importantly- if we want to have any chance to move out of our horrible conference situation- we have to make the institutional commitment too. Otherwise this is window dressing.
Lest anyone think that is a defense of Bailiff and/or yesterday- I believe that there are several HS staffs that we could replace our current staff with at lower pay and not be worse off. We might not have the athletes to beat USM (an indictment in and of itself) but we should never, ever, have a game like yesterday, no matter how outmanned we are. Effort, execution, assignments, discipline, heart- none of those take talent.

Agree 100%. It is time to decide in or not. When the rest committed over the past 20 yrs, we did as we did the previous 30.
11-15-2015 01:25 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #416
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 01:20 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  I am not defending Bailiff in the least bit, because yesterday was inexcusable and that is on him. I agree with Owl numbers 100% in that last post he made, but if/when we fire him and his staff it has to be because we are making an institutional decision to improve. And that must include a bigger financial commitment to the program, in the form of additional capital improvement to the stadium and an increase in coaching salaries and recruiting budgets. I think the decision to hang on to Edmonston and Lynch was a mistake too, but I am pretty sure that economics played a big part in that decision. I'd still have made a different decision- and hired an unproven but promising young up-and-comer or a HS coach for the OC role at the same salary- but that's probably not ideal either. Go watch Tommy West's press conference after he was fired at Memphis, and all of that applies to us as well. I think we need a new staff but just as importantly- if we want to have any chance to move out of our horrible conference situation- we have to make the institutional commitment too. Otherwise this is window dressing.
Lest anyone think that is a defense of Bailiff and/or yesterday- I believe that there are several HS staffs that we could replace our current staff with at lower pay and not be worse off. We might not have the athletes to beat USM (an indictment in and of itself) but we should never, ever, have a game like yesterday, no matter how outmanned we are. Effort, execution, assignments, discipline, heart- none of those take talent.

In complete agreement. I believe that the EZF is the first step towards making that commitment, and the fact that it is being built gives me hope that we will see a wholesale change in our level of commitment to the program.
11-15-2015 01:30 PM
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Bay Area Owl Offline
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Post: #417
RE: Rice USM game thread
The very fact the EZF is under construction shows a level of commitment, and it's also the reason why Bailiff absolutely cannot stick around and vomit his coaching and performances on next season's debut. The EZF is a new beginning, and Rice needs to begin it with a new coach.

When Stanford opened their new stadium in 2006, Walt Harris tarnished the debut with a 1-11 performance... Then they got Harbaugh, after we passed on him. People need to be excited about Rice football once again...
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2015 01:41 PM by Bay Area Owl.)
11-15-2015 01:40 PM
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Middle Ages Offline
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Post: #418
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 01:40 PM)Bay Area Owl Wrote:  The very fact the EZF is under construction shows a level of commitment, and it's also the reason why Bailiff absolutely cannot stick around and vomit his coaching and performances on next season's debut. The EZF is a new beginning, and Rice needs to begin it with a new coach.

When Stanford opened their new stadium in 2006, Walt Harris tarnished the debut with a 1-11 performance... Then they got Harbaugh, after we passed on him. People need to be excited about Rice football once again...

Hadn't he just gotten a DUI or something? I remember there being some questions about him beyond his lack of experience.
Boy- that has to go down as one of the biggest misses in Rice history, doesn't it? Remember that surrogate of his that posted on here every 5 minutes pumping him for the job?
11-15-2015 01:45 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #419
RE: Rice USM game thread
Right now, Massey gives UTSA a 58% chance of beating Rice.
11-15-2015 03:12 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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Post: #420
RE: Rice USM game thread
(11-15-2015 10:40 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  This was by far the largest turnout for the young alumni crowd. Unfortunately they were given a show that was not worth their money.

Good thing we threw a good tailgate at least.

I thought the trailgate's brisket by Goode was quite good ... (certainly better than hotdogs and burger patties in the Stadium Club). But they sold out of the good beer very quickly. My options were Bud, Bud Light and Michelob Ultra. Yuck!
11-15-2015 04:05 PM
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