(06-22-2015 01:30 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "We didn't commit genocide, we just killed an entire civilization. We didn't write it down."

It's more like, "Well, when we killed all those people, "genocide" wasn't a word so we can't call it genocide".

(06-22-2015 01:39 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 01:30 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  "We didn't commit genocide, we just killed an entire civilization. We didn't write it down."

It's more like, "Well, when we killed all those people, "genocide" wasn't a word so we can't call it genocide".

"We didn't build that."

There is a huge difference between committing genocide and removing Indians or killing them through war and diseases.

As a man who served in the Marines and lived in South Carolina, college at Georgia Southern, traveled with Government law enforcement job through out the 50 states, and received an public education in New Jersey, the flag should not be flown at the states capital. There's more hate affiliated with that flag than love for the Confederate military. Obviously it's the choice of the citizens of the State of South Carolina to make this change.

I said the same thing with the "N" word. Abolishing the "N" word in music, movies for all races everywhere. Remember "United we stand .... Divided we fall"

(06-22-2015 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is a huge difference between committing genocide and removing Indians or killing them through war and diseases.

NO. That is what genocide IS.

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

-the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Native Americans (an ethnic group) were deliberately killed by the United States.

Sometimes you just need to concede that a valid argument was made. You'd be a lot better off.

(06-22-2015 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is a huge difference between committing genocide and removing Indians or killing them through war and diseases.

Easy for you to say.

But still not true.

(06-22-2015 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is a huge difference between committing genocide and removing Indians or killing them through war and diseases.

Fit, read that again to yourself. It's semantics.

As a native son SC resident IMO the absolute only flag that should fly on the SC Statehouse grounds is the Palmetto and Crescent.

(06-22-2015 11:43 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:42 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:38 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:33 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:19 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  And our current flag represents a nation that committed genocide of Native Americans.

Sorry, bud. There's negative connotations with just about any flag. That's a weak argument to why it should be banned.

Wrong. The United states did not commit genocide.

Wrong. The United States did commit genocide.

Nope the did some horrible things but there was never any written policy to kill off native Americans.

So.....that means it didn't happen?

No, helluva nice strawman, though.

Actual South Carolinian here.

The demands from the NAACP originally were take the flag down off the state house, where it flew underneath the state flag.

The flag was removed from the state house dome and moved down to a newly created Confederate Memorial on State House grounds. The NAACP decided that was not sufficient. It's worth mentioning there are war memorials FOR EVERY OTHER WAR also on State House grounds. So that is the proper place for a Civil War Memorial. If I were in charge, yea, I'd probably remove the flag. Not necessarily because I agree with the NAACP's position, but mostly because I just DGAF about it.

The bickering from the NAACP over the flag being there is more or less just that ... petty bickering. There are still protests all the time at the Civil War Memorial .... usually a raucous group of ... ohhhhh say 12 or so. Nearly all of them white progressives typically. The NAACP boycott of SC is an absolute joke. Go to Myrtle Beach during bike week. "Boycott" indeed. The only people who actually take the boycott seriously are the NCAA ... who bans post-season events in the state of SC. That means no bowl games, no March Madness sites, etc. The only thing post-season that is allowed is baseball regional and super regional sites. The NCAA's ban would be hilarious if it didn't actually punish people who have absolutely nothing to do with and no power to change the present location of the Confederate Flag on State House grounds. The NCAA ban is just one of many reasons I'd like to see the P5 and G5 (and even a few of the most powerful in FCS) pull away and leave the NCAA to rot and die or become NAIA 2.0. The NCAA is the most grotesque instance of clueless self-righteous bureaucracy in this country that exists outside of Washington, DC and state governments.

The person who did the original cartoon OP posted should be brought to State House grounds. Anybody with a valid SC drivers license should be able to walk up and ask, "Do you believe having a Confederate Flag on a Confederate War Memorial on State House grounds causes people to mass murder blacks?" If they answer yes, you get to slap the **** out of them, hopefully knocking the moron out of their skull in the process.

(06-22-2015 02:06 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Actual South Carolinian here.

The demands from the NAACP originally were take the flag down off the state house, where it flew underneath the state flag.

The flag was removed from the state house dome and moved down to a newly created Confederate Memorial on State House grounds. The NAACP decided that was not sufficient. It's worth mentioning there are war memorials FOR EVERY OTHER WAR also on State House grounds. So that is the proper place for a Civil War Memorial. If I were in charge, yea, I'd probably remove the flag. Not necessarily because I agree with the NAACP's position, but mostly because I just DGAF about it.

The bickering from the NAACP over the flag being there is more or less just that ... petty bickering. There are still protests all the time at the Civil War Memorial .... usually a raucous group of ... ohhhhh say 12 or so. Nearly all of them white progressives typically. The NAACP boycott of SC is an absolute joke. Go to Myrtle Beach during bike week. "Boycott" indeed. The only people who actually take the boycott seriously are the NCAA ... who bans post-season events in the state of SC. That means no bowl games, no March Madness sites, etc. The only thing post-season that is allowed is baseball regional and super regional sites. The NCAA's ban would be hilarious if it didn't actually punish people who have absolutely nothing to do with and no power to change the present location of the Confederate Flag on State House grounds. The NCAA ban is just one of many reasons I'd like to see the P5 and G5 (and even a few of the most powerful in FCS) pull away and leave the NCAA to rot and die or become NAIA 2.0. The NCAA is the most grotesque instance of clueless self-righteous bureaucracy in this country that exists outside of Washington, DC and state governments.

The person who did the original cartoon OP posted should be brought to State House grounds. Anybody with a valid SC drivers license should be able to walk up and ask, "Do you believe having a Confederate Flag on a Confederate War Memorial on State House grounds causes people to mass murder blacks?" If they answer yes, you get to slap the **** out of them, hopefully knocking the moron out of their skull in the process.

I'll call that post of the day.

(06-22-2015 01:46 PM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 01:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is a huge difference between committing genocide and removing Indians or killing them through war and diseases.

NO. That is what genocide IS.

gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides

-the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Native Americans (an ethnic group) were deliberately killed by the United States.

Sometimes you just need to concede that a valid argument was made. You'd be a lot better off.

Or you could say the US perfected the Bataan Death March before the Japanese.

(06-22-2015 02:03 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:43 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:42 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:38 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(06-22-2015 11:33 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Wrong. The United states did not commit genocide.

Wrong. The United States did commit genocide.

Nope the did some horrible things but there was never any written policy to kill off native Americans.

So.....that means it didn't happen?

No, helluva nice strawman, though.

Not a strawman at all. He argued that the flag should be removed because it represents a nation that perpetuated slavery.

I argued that, on those same grounds, you could argue for pretty much any flag to be removed from the public eye, including our country's current one.

(06-22-2015 07:08 AM)TerryD Wrote:  The South entered into armed revolt against the duly elected government of the United States of America.

That meets the legal definition of treason in any place and at any time.

We can honor the valor of individual soldiers and armies, but that Confederate battle flag represented treason and now has been co-opted by the KKK and other racial hate groups.

Here is what the creator of that flag wrote about it in 1863:

In 1863, as the editor of the Savannah Morning News he proposed a design that would ultimately become the Confederacy's second national flag, which would be come to known as the "Stainless Banner". Referring to the flag's design as "The White Man's Flag", Thompson praised its design, as well as stating:

As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. ... As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism. Another merit in the new flag is, that it bears no resemblance to the now infamous banner of the Yankee vandals.

—William T. Thompson (1863), Daily Morning News


It has no business being flown in public places. Take that flag down.

The United States is the only western government that required war to eliminate the practice of slavery. The fact that it even came to war is an indictment against the US federal government. We should have done precisely what the British did: buy out all the slaves, THEN make it illegal. What we did here was just straight abolition. So the Northerners -- ya know the people doing all the triangle trade to bring the slaves over here -- walked away with all the profit and none of the hurt. The farmers who sunk all their capital into that workforce are suddenly without a workforce or in many cases even the capital to pay the workforce to stay as employees. The British had the right compromise that prevents anybody from getting pushed into an economic corner. And no matter how much it cost to the government to buy out all the slaves, I can guarantee that cost is cheaper than the cost of war, reconstruction, hundreds of thousands of dead lives, veterans benefits, and the rift that still exists today in the country. And if your reply to this is "so you support slavery?" then just go ahead and save the site the bandwidth, because you are willfully ignoring the point I'm making, which is purely about HOW you get rid of slavery, not whether or not you should.

(06-22-2015 07:42 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  Should the right to "free speech" apply to a group of child molesters who congregate in a city center and proclaim their "beliefs" to the public in that manner?

Yes. I am a free speech absolutist. The solution to child molesters gathering is for a group 10x larger to assemble and proclaim how they are wrong. Not to use state directed force to shut them down. You don't fix broken ideas by arresting them. You fix them by engaging them and bringing them into the market of free ideas and defeating them.

(06-22-2015 08:23 AM)TerryD Wrote:  If someone wants to fly that damn thing on private property, then you can argue "free speech", but not on public property and government buildings.

I can agree with that. But I find a great many people are not willing to be consistent on removing agenda-driven and/or religious items from public property (10 Commandments, etc). Ideally public property is completely sanitized from political and religious agenda items.

The concensus among historians is that it wasn't a genocide. A lot of events are in this grey area catagory where you have a high loss of life thanks to highly unethical actions. But not the planned systematic extermination that constitutes a genocide. So while fit is correct, he is essentially arguing on a technicality.

Also the flag in question was a battle flag not a national flag. There is a massive fundamental difference between the two. Case and point Japan. Their WW2 era national flag is not controversial in Korea/China, but their battle flags are. So it's apples and oranges to compare the stainless banner to the stars and stripes. National flags are entitled to forgiveness over time. Battle flags are not.

(06-22-2015 02:19 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Ideally public property is completely sanitized from political and religious agenda items.

(06-22-2015 10:12 AM)TerryD Wrote:  State's rights died at Appomattox,

On this point, I disagree strongly. Though K-12 and even collegiate history classes go out of their way to try to drill this into your skull. Nullification is a valid Constitutional principle. The Articles of Enumeration is the most disrespected part of a Constitution, and that's a high bar to clear these days.

The sooner the states realize their collective power to tell the Feds to go **** off, the faster we get back on track as a nation. And people who REFUSE to understand the concept of states rights and its validity in our form of government will be the basis on the other side of the fence for splitting this country up in the future.

If I was living in SC, I'd want it taken down and put in a museum for preservation. However, I do not live in SC, so I do not have a say. I also think if you are under the age of 30 and have one on your truck, you are a moron.

My 2 cents

The problem is not the CSA Battle Flag, the problem is that it has been hijacked by hate groups. The abstract rules passed by CS to not enable it to be at half-mast is a more recent GOP bigot issue. Even though I have evolved from a libertarian republican to a democrat, I cringe when the dems keep blasting the battle flag & assume all who share its heritage are bigots.

I do understand that its hijacking by hate groups is now why it is feared by minorities, and I cast much blame on the SCV (of which I am a member) for not suing hate groups for defamation for using it.

I was upset when VA governor Wilder had it removed from State trooper’s uniforms, until I read that it was only added in the 1950’s to fight desecration. SC has had it flying since the1890’s.

On my paternal side I had ancestors (Coles’. Henrys’, Yielding’s’) die as CSA soldiers Some in Northern POW camps. On maternal side had an ancestor fight for the Union (found out a couple years ago through National Archives).

The flag should represent heritage. The CSA was a lean mean fighting machine and they did not invent slavery. The issue in my opinion is that the CSA battle flag has been hijacked by hate groups.

I for one miss hearing Dixie! Not sure how to change it though.

(06-22-2015 02:26 PM)fsquid Wrote:  If I was living in SC, I'd want it taken down and put in a museum for preservation. However, I do not live in SC, so I do not have a say. I also think if you are under the age of 30 and have one on your truck, you are a moron.

I see a lot of guys these days that are (I'm guessing) b/t the ages of 16-25 driving around with them flying on a pole in the back of a truck or a Jeep.