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Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(06-29-2014 02:32 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  Playing the what if game. What if Germany had gone strictly east and concentrated all its efforts on Russia. Forget France and England, neither country would've lifted a finger to help Russia. You'd have to think that the Germans would've conquered Russia and with those resources then turn their eyes on the West.
Only if they managed to accomplish it before winter set in. It wasn't the Russians that defeated the Germans. It was the Russian winter. German machinery wasn't built for it. Russian equipment was.
06-29-2014 03:38 PM
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Post: #62
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(06-28-2014 03:20 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(06-28-2014 08:21 AM)GoApps70 Wrote:  
(06-23-2014 05:27 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(06-23-2014 05:16 PM)GoApps70 Wrote:  He should have settled what
ever else he wanted to before taking on Russia.

Because Stalin was going to wait for Hitler to finish off Britain before he attacked the Nazi's himself?
Stalin would never have attacked Hitler if Germany had not invaded. Stalin was afraid of Hitler. Besides, Hitler had given Stalin 51% of Poland and Stalin took it over under the guise of preventing Hitler from taking all of it over to the world. Stalin, even after Germany attacked, went into a great state of depression for a week. Stalin knew he had killed his best generals before the war just to hold onto power.

Historians disagree on when Stalin planned to attack Germany but they generally agree he was making preparations to do so at some point in the first half of the 1940's; and he was most certainly not "scared" of Hitler. He even interfered with the KPD from cooperating with the SPD from forming an anti-Nazi coalition in the Reichstag in '33.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offe...ontroversy

I've read a lot about Stalin but never read that he was planning on attacking Germany, at least not that I can recall.
06-29-2014 07:24 PM
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Native Georgian Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
I doubt that Stalin would have ever worked up the nerve to attack Hitler first. Stalin cherished his peace-treaty with the 3d Reich and did nothing to disturb it for two full years (June 39 to June 41).

Lots of interesting comments and speculation here. Can't react to all of it, but in regards to the OP: yes the Axis could have Absolutely won WWII if they had played their cards right. And it really wouldn't have required too much "luck" or "fate" to do so.
07-01-2014 11:58 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
The fact that Stalin refused to allow the Red Army to retaliate when attacked because he didn't believe what was going on sort of shows how he had very little desire to attack himself.

Besides, he was also planning a modernization of the Red Army and he had yet to get around to that. Stalin knew that Bt-7s, I16s, and an inexperienced officer corps meant the Red Army was dead meat.
07-01-2014 01:50 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
If Hitler had listen to his generals, may have been a totally different outcome, especially with the superior technology the Germans had developed. In fact there was a debate among the allies if they should attempt to assassinate Hitler. There was one school of thought, it was better not to assassinate Hitler because of the disastrous decisions he was making which made him an asset to the allied cause for victory.
(This post was last modified: 08-13-2015 03:03 PM by BIgCatonProwl.)
07-20-2015 08:03 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
So, almost two years later it appears that we were not able to come to a consensus.
01-09-2018 11:47 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(06-04-2014 02:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The biggest factor in the Axis losing the war was Hitler declaring war on Russia. Had they not tried to fight a war on 2 fronts, they would have conquered all of Europe. The Russian winter decimated their army, and was the beginning of the end for Germany.

But what is neglected is that Hitler *still* has no sources of oil sufficient for a modern war, much as he never did.

The nearest and only sources sufficient are Baku and that region, and the Middle East.

Without an oil source Hitler *never* wins.
01-10-2018 07:37 AM
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Post: #68
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 07:37 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 02:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The biggest factor in the Axis losing the war was Hitler declaring war on Russia. Had they not tried to fight a war on 2 fronts, they would have conquered all of Europe. The Russian winter decimated their army, and was the beginning of the end for Germany.
But what is neglected is that Hitler *still* has no sources of oil sufficient for a modern war, much as he never did.
The nearest and only sources sufficient are Baku and that region, and the Middle East.
Without an oil source Hitler *never* wins.

There was another possible option. In 1935 Persia changed its name to Iran. The best translation of Iran from Farsi is, "empire of the Aryan people." Iran clearly held ambitions to recreate the ancient Persian Empire. In that context, some have seen this as an attempt to curry favor with Hitler, "See, we're Aryan like you, so send us some tanks and Messerschmidts, and we'll meet you at the Bosporus." Had that happened, Hitler could have had his oil. Transporting it would have been a problem, but if he had waited for pipelines, it could have worked.

Those Iranian imperial ambitions may or may not continue to today, but in the minds off most Arab leaders, they are very real.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 08:04 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-10-2018 08:04 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 07:37 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 02:14 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  The biggest factor in the Axis losing the war was Hitler declaring war on Russia. Had they not tried to fight a war on 2 fronts, they would have conquered all of Europe. The Russian winter decimated their army, and was the beginning of the end for Germany.

But what is neglected is that Hitler *still* has no sources of oil sufficient for a modern war, much as he never did.

The nearest and only sources sufficient are Baku and that region, and the Middle East.

Without an oil source Hitler *never* wins.

Hitler had just about all the oil he needed, in Romania.

However, Ion Antonescu refused to work with Hitler on them much because he wanted greater assistance from the German armaments industry and never got it. Romanian armored united were forced to use homemade variants of captured Soviet equipment or go largely without.

By 1944 the Royal Romanian Air Force, which had done an admirable job defending them, was past the point of exhaustion and continual bombing put them nearly out of action.

On a side note, the Romanian arms industry did manage to throw out some truly spectacular items, including a variant of the Soviet 115mm gun which was considered superior, the IAR 80, the vehicle upon which the famous STUG self propelled gun was based, and the Orita submachine gun. Together, this along with the ability to produce without assistance all of the various requirements to keep a modern army in the field made Romania perhaps Germany's most important ally.

On a further side note, the Romanian military was not considered to be unreliable by the Germans and for a period the entire German 6th Army was placed under Romanian leadership. That didn't happen again as Petre Dumetrescu refused to take orders directly from the German High Command and instead routed his information through Budapest because he felt that the German High Command was being too directly influenced by Hitler who he felt had no real appreciation for the situation on the ground. The same Romanian general had earlier begged for permission to reduce the Soviet pocket from which Operation Uranus was launched. Instead, the German High Command requisitioned almost all of his artillery and heavy equipment, along with that of the Hungarian and Italians, including most of their trucks, to support the German attack on Stalingrad. We all know what happened next.

***For clarification, what is in the fourth paragraph is known as a list. The vehicle upon which the Hetzer, and ultimately the STUG were based on was a Romanian design known as the Maresal***
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 12:15 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
01-10-2018 08:32 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
Romanian oil production stacked against the Middle East, US, or Baku region is literally a drop in the bucket. It might have helped, but in no way, shape, or form was it sufficient in the long term to sustain the even the first modern war.
01-10-2018 09:55 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 09:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Romanian oil production stacked against the Middle East, US, or Baku region is literally a drop in the bucket. It might have helped, but in no way, shape, or form was it sufficient in the long term to sustain the even the first modern war.

Romanian oil production was much greater in the 1940's than today; the wells were pumped dry during the war and than afterwards as reparations. It was far more than a drop in the bucket. Romanian oil had already peaked in 1936 (8.7 million tons) and was down to 5.3 million tons in 1943, the last year before Allied bombing cut into production.

Also, the IAR80 was a fighter plane, not an AFV.
01-10-2018 10:34 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 09:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Romanian oil production stacked against the Middle East, US, or Baku region is literally a drop in the bucket. It might have helped, but in no way, shape, or form was it sufficient in the long term to sustain the even the first modern war.

Not in the day.

Romania was a major world producer and the reserves in Romania at the time were theoretically great enough to supply the Axis forces with everything they would need.

Refining capacity was not great enough in Romania but production was.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 12:15 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
01-10-2018 12:12 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 10:34 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 09:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Romanian oil production stacked against the Middle East, US, or Baku region is literally a drop in the bucket. It might have helped, but in no way, shape, or form was it sufficient in the long term to sustain the even the first modern war.

Romanian oil production was much greater in the 1940's than today; the wells were pumped dry during the war and than afterwards as reparations. It was far more than a drop in the bucket. Romanian oil had already peaked in 1936 (8.7 million tons) and was down to 5.3 million tons in 1943, the last year before Allied bombing cut into production.

Also, the IAR80 was a fighter plane, not an AFV.

Who said it was?
01-10-2018 12:12 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 10:34 AM)58-56 Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 09:55 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Romanian oil production stacked against the Middle East, US, or Baku region is literally a drop in the bucket. It might have helped, but in no way, shape, or form was it sufficient in the long term to sustain the even the first modern war.

Romanian oil production was much greater in the 1940's than today; the wells were pumped dry during the war and than afterwards as reparations. It was far more than a drop in the bucket. Romanian oil had already peaked in 1936 (8.7 million tons) and was down to 5.3 million tons in 1943, the last year before Allied bombing cut into production.

Also, the IAR80 was a fighter plane, not an AFV.

Oil production is generally measured in barrels as opposed to tons. The tonnage figures aren't very illustrative.

To expand on the point of Romanian oil production, from the outbreak of the war through the major assaults on the oil fields, Romania maintained and export to Germany of roughly 13 million barrels through 1943.

Romania never supplied more than half of its output to the Germans since German shipments of coal and various armaments never met targets.

Impressively, through the first 4 months of '44 Romania supplied the Germans with nearly 7 million barrels and that is after major raids had been mounted and the Royal Romanian Air Force had been all but destroyed.

Romanian engineers kept German in the war.
01-10-2018 12:24 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
If you take a look at Germany's major European allies, Italy, Romania, and Hungary you can see where it would have been theoretically possible to organize them in such a way as to win the war.

It is probably fair to say that would have required herculean feats to have done and would have required nearly perfect performances from each country but it was possible, by the numbers.
01-10-2018 12:34 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
My father flew the Ploiesti bombing raids out of southern Italy. Once we captured southern Italy, bombing Ploiesti was much more feasible than prior missions out of northern Africa. Our theory was that if we could knock out the refineries at Ploiesti, it would essentially end Germany's ability to fight. The Germans apparently had the same belief, and they defended the area with everything they had. The Ploiesti raids had the highest casualty rate of any WWII actions.

Because of their oil vulnerability, the Germans did a lot of pioneering work with coal gasification and liquefaction. IMO the future of coal, if it has one, lies in pushing that technology forward. Because we have so much coal, and because we are a long way from having truly green alternatives feasible on a widespread basis, I think this is an area that merits attention now. The processes produce relatively clean-burning fuel, but the problem is that they also produce large amounts of CO2. Finding ways to minimize the CO2, or things to do with it, would be very useful. One idea is to use it for lift injection into existing oil formations. One thing is that CO2 produced at a point source might be much easier to handle than CO2 produced randomly across a large area.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 12:35 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
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RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 12:34 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If you take a look at Germany's major European allies, Italy, Romania, and Hungary you can see where it would have been theoretically possible to organize them in such a way as to win the war.

It is probably fair to say that would have required herculean feats to have done and would have required nearly perfect performances from each country but it was possible, by the numbers.

I agree if your WWII was confined solely to land grabs in continental western Europe. Otherwise, defeat it was inevitable.

Recent new scholarship on the Japanese entrance to WWII shows that the vast majority of Japanese military leadership knew that any fight involving the United States would lead to defeat, but their culture of bushido eliminated anyone from saying so for fear of being weak. But that same culture of Bushido meant that of course they had to attack the USA.

Same realities in Europe. There was no way that Germany was not going to, at some point, engage in hostilities against the UK and the Soviet Union. The UK would be supplied, endlessly, by the USA and the Soviets only had to build their factories behind the Urals to be almost untouchable.

Defeat was inevitable for the Axis outside of two small opportunities:

German stops in western Europe
Japan stops in Manchuria

Otherwise the manufacturing might of the USA combined with the manpower of the Soviet Union meant certain Axis defeat.
01-10-2018 01:29 PM
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RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 08:32 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The vehicle upon which the Hetzer, and ultimately the STUG were based on was a Romanian design known as the Maresal***

The RFP for the Maresal was issued in December 1942 to the Malaxa/Rogifer factory. The Sturmgeschutz RFP went to Daimler-Benz in 1936 and saw action from 1940. The overall point, that Romanian engineers like Ghiulai and Veres were innovative thinkers, is certainly valid.

(Tudor, Gheorghe: Forta de Soc. Schiță istorica a trupelor detancuri din armăta română.)
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RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(01-10-2018 01:29 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  
(01-10-2018 12:34 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If you take a look at Germany's major European allies, Italy, Romania, and Hungary you can see where it would have been theoretically possible to organize them in such a way as to win the war.

It is probably fair to say that would have required herculean feats to have done and would have required nearly perfect performances from each country but it was possible, by the numbers.

I agree if your WWII was confined solely to land grabs in continental western Europe. Otherwise, defeat it was inevitable.

Recent new scholarship on the Japanese entrance to WWII shows that the vast majority of Japanese military leadership knew that any fight involving the United States would lead to defeat, but their culture of bushido eliminated anyone from saying so for fear of being weak. But that same culture of Bushido meant that of course they had to attack the USA.

Same realities in Europe. There was no way that Germany was not going to, at some point, engage in hostilities against the UK and the Soviet Union. The UK would be supplied, endlessly, by the USA and the Soviets only had to build their factories behind the Urals to be almost untouchable.

Defeat was inevitable for the Axis outside of two small opportunities:

German stops in western Europe
Japan stops in Manchuria

Otherwise the manufacturing might of the USA combined with the manpower of the Soviet Union meant certain Axis defeat.

I don't know if I would go that far.

Like all good agriculture the defeat was fertilized prior to being sown. This happened at the Battles of Khalkin Gol in Manchuria in 1939 where in a series of major border battles the Soviets soundly defeated the Imperial Japanese forces and discouraged further pursuit by the Imperial Japanese staff of the Northern Expansion Doctrine in favor of the Southern Expansion Doctrine, the expansion of the empire into South East Asia and the Pacific. Because of the redirected goals Japan had no intention of invading the Soviet Union, Soviet spy Richard Sorge was able to obtain this information and when forwarded to Moscow the lack of a two front threat allowed the Soviets to relocate massive amounts of personnel and equipment from the defense of Siberia to be used against the Nazis.



The seeds for Germany's defeat were sown at Dunkirk. Had they been able to prosecute the offensive and destroy the British Expeditionary Force on the beach instead of allowing them to evacuate the personnel they did Britain would have ceased to be much more than an annoyance and they could have concentrated the majority of their forces against the Soviets. Recall that even with the evacuations the Brits had abandoned most of their heavy armament and transport on the beach. What the British evacuations did was force Germany to keep significant defensive forces deployed in France and the low countries to counter a possible cross channel invasion.

The defeat germinated in Dec 40/Jan 41 when the determination was made that Germany had to send forces initially to prop up, then to replace the Italians in North Africa. This would further divide German military power.

The defeat bloomed on June 22, 1941 at 0315hrs when the Axis launched Operation Barbarossa. From that point on the outcome of the war was inevitable as Germany would always be facing a two front war.



Some believe that the British could have posed a challenge because of their empire, but prior to American entry into the Pacific theater the Japanese were soundly whipping Commonwealth forces and was within striking distance of invading Australia when they attacked Pearl Harbor. With the bulk of Australia's forces committed to the fight in the Mediterranean theater had America not entered the war it's likely that Australia would have fell and with India under Japanese threat the defense of the Commonwealth would have fell to South Africa and Canada.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2018 03:46 PM by Kaplony.)
01-10-2018 03:24 PM
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RE: Could the Axis powers have won WWII????
(06-29-2014 02:32 PM)TStatebobcat Wrote:  Playing the what if game. What if Germany had gone strictly east and concentrated all its efforts on Russia. Forget France and England, neither country would've lifted a finger to help Russia. You'd have to think that the Germans would've conquered Russia and with those resources then turn their eyes on the West.

I think turning the Phoney War into Blitzkrieg in the west was a big mistake. Russia held much more of what Hitler needed, primarily grain and oil.

Invading the Soviet Union May 1940 instead of instead of France and the Low Countries might very well have kept the sitzkrieg going in the west. Very little chance the US is Lend Leasing to the Soviets if Paris is free of Nazis and bombers aren't over London.

The Soviets didn't take huge advantage of US tanks and aircraft but the loved the Studebaker trucks, without that ability to move supplies and soldiers the Soviets would have been in terrible shape logistically.

France and the UK had already hosed Poland by not quickly mounting an attack after the invasion of Poland when the west was poorly guarded. Attacking the Soviets would have reduced the France/UK interest in making that attack.

Starting 57 weeks earlier than Operation Barbarossa would have given the Germans a greater opportunity to reach Moscow. Take Moscow and the Soviets have basically lost lateral movement by rail and supply and reinforcement becomes an enhanced challenge since they were short on trucks as well.
01-10-2018 03:39 PM
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