(04-20-2013 08:12 PM)EagleX Wrote:  and while I didn't want to blow his brains out on boylston (too messy) I do want to send him to gitmo and waterboard the little bastard until he tells us who his masters are.

His "masters" might just be his dead brother.

(04-20-2013 07:27 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  It doesn't mean we should act as if the republic will fall if we don't literally run this guy through a wood chipper.

True -- but let's also not act as if the federal Constitution provides rights/privileges to enemy combatants.

I think there are (unfortunately) many compelling reasons to keep that cretin alive for a few years. Those reasons have mostly to do with our need to gather intelligence about others like him, and the organizations that such cretins belong to. They have nothing to do with the Bill of Rights or laws of criminal procedure.

(04-20-2013 08:17 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  True -- but let's also not act as if the federal Constitution provides rights/privileges to enemy combatants.

It does to citizens, though.

(04-20-2013 08:15 PM)Smaug Wrote:  His "masters" might just be his dead brother.

I'm sure that's what he'll say.

(04-20-2013 08:13 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:07 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:04 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

Keep beating that drum if you want, even though you can't possibly know what was going on in that kid's head in September.

That, and he hasn't been convicted of a crime, remember? Just accused of some.

dude. I saw the video. while I totally support due process, I think you are just raising the bar of snuffing out this little bastard for no good reason.

How am I raising the bar? I just think accused people have a right to due process before they are run up the flagpole.

Sure, the video's pretty damning, and I have no doubt it will be the prosecution's smoking gun, unless he straight up confesses, but as for how damning, that's for 12 of his neighbors to decide.

Dude.

He has confessed. i think it was the carjacking victim that has said they made that statement while stealing the car.

(04-20-2013 08:19 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:15 PM)Smaug Wrote:  His "masters" might just be his dead brother.

I'm sure that's what he'll say.

And as far as any of us knows, so far, it might be true.

(04-20-2013 08:20 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:13 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:07 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:04 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

Keep beating that drum if you want, even though you can't possibly know what was going on in that kid's head in September.

That, and he hasn't been convicted of a crime, remember? Just accused of some.

dude. I saw the video. while I totally support due process, I think you are just raising the bar of snuffing out this little bastard for no good reason.

How am I raising the bar? I just think accused people have a right to due process before they are run up the flagpole.

Sure, the video's pretty damning, and I have no doubt it will be the prosecution's smoking gun, unless he straight up confesses, but as for how damning, that's for 12 of his neighbors to decide.

Dude.

He has confessed. i think it was the carjacking victim that has said they made that statement while stealing the car.

Interesting. I did not know that.

(04-20-2013 08:15 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:12 PM)EagleX Wrote:  and while I didn't want to blow his brains out on boylston (too messy) I do want to send him to gitmo and waterboard the little bastard until he tells us who his masters are.

His "masters" might just be his dead brother.

I actually give you that one. big brother got radicalized. little brother rather blindly followed big brother.

it's unfortunate, but the highest priority here is not worrying about how one brother screwed another. it's how we defend our country.

(04-20-2013 08:20 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:13 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:07 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:04 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

Keep beating that drum if you want, even though you can't possibly know what was going on in that kid's head in September.

That, and he hasn't been convicted of a crime, remember? Just accused of some.

dude. I saw the video. while I totally support due process, I think you are just raising the bar of snuffing out this little bastard for no good reason.

How am I raising the bar? I just think accused people have a right to due process before they are run up the flagpole.

Sure, the video's pretty damning, and I have no doubt it will be the prosecution's smoking gun, unless he straight up confesses, but as for how damning, that's for 12 of his neighbors to decide.

Dude.

He has confessed. i think it was the carjacking victim that has said they made that statement while stealing the car.

it's tough to sort the fact through the static, but he made incredibly incriminating statements in the process of the carjack. in fact, if they had kept their heads down, instead of going on a crime spree, it's debateab;e that we would have gotten them at all.

(04-20-2013 08:26 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:20 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:13 PM)Smaug Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:07 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:04 PM)Smaug Wrote:  Keep beating that drum if you want, even though you can't possibly know what was going on in that kid's head in September.

That, and he hasn't been convicted of a crime, remember? Just accused of some.

dude. I saw the video. while I totally support due process, I think you are just raising the bar of snuffing out this little bastard for no good reason.

How am I raising the bar? I just think accused people have a right to due process before they are run up the flagpole.

Sure, the video's pretty damning, and I have no doubt it will be the prosecution's smoking gun, unless he straight up confesses, but as for how damning, that's for 12 of his neighbors to decide.

Dude.

He has confessed. i think it was the carjacking victim that has said they made that statement while stealing the car.

it's tough to sort the fact through the static, but he made incredibly incriminating statements in the process of the carjack. in fact, if they had kept their heads down, instead of going on a crime spree, it's debateab;e that we would have gotten them at all.

There are people from the college the younger brother goes to who said they recognized them. They would've gotten them. There's no secret intelligence gathering or technology that will be exposed. This was not an existential threat to the country. Plain old police work got 'em, and we should trust the rest of the criminal justice system to take care of them as it has in the past.

I'm all for giving him due process as any citizen gets. Face it, even with due process their isn't a jury anywhere in this country that won't find him guilty. Given that he will be found guilty, the only question that remains is the death penalty or life in prison.

I would easily choose death, but can live with life provided it is in the worst existence we provide within the federal system. SuperMax, in a private cell with no visitors and limited "exercise time" (1 hr a day in a cage) - FOR THE REMAINDER OF HIS LIFE............that could add up to a lot of miserable days (well deserved).

(04-20-2013 07:51 PM)Smaug Wrote:  You should be comparing him to Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph rather than OBL.

US citizen/terrorist act/US soil.

Hopefully this murderer will suffer a quick demise like McVeigh.

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:50 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:38 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:27 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:23 PM)EagleX Wrote:  what do you think that the process of obtaining US citizenship entails? it simply isn't a purely administrative process of pushing around paperwork. you swear fidelity, you swear off old allegiances. you sign documents that are statements of the past and present actions.

it's just absurd to think that this guy had a hard on to be an american 6 months ago without a ton of ulterior motives.

He's been in the US for over a decade. He didn't sign up to do it 7 months ago. From what I've heard his brother was likely the leader of this thing and he was just following along because he looked up to his brother so much. Of course that's speculation but there is a tiny bit of evidence behind it. At any rate, if there's evidence he was a member of a radical group for longer than he's been a citizen, OK. If this plot started after that, or there's no larger group, then try again.

He killed four people. There is a huge reaction to this thing like it was 9/11. Yes, it was a terrible act, and yes, he should and will pay for it, and yes the loss of those four people is horrible. It doesn't mean we should act as if the republic will fall if we don't literally run this guy through a wood chipper.

first of all, the number of people killed in a terrorist act doesn't make it any less of a terrorist act.

there are numerous legal grounds to strip this kid of his citizenship (quite frankly, I was a little surprised until I googled a few things, and I was so surprised that called a lawyer friend of mine)

due process doesn't apply to this ****** in the way you want it to. if the obama administration had any balls, they would be moving to strip him of his citizenship now.

you need to quit equating "what happens to him = what happens to me". you and me aren't him. please, get past that.

Can you direct me to the parts of the Constitution that tell us which citizens that due process does/does not apply to?

You clearly don't understand the concept of precedence. If the gov't decides they can strip citizenship or deny due process because someone is suspected (not "already convicted") of terrorism, they can do it to anyone. Have you seen some of the things that get you put on a terrorist watch list these days?

that is just untrue. you're just wrong. what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

and there is over 200 years of precedent that says you are worried about nothing, and you are willing to risk the ability of the republic to defend itself based upon your wrongness.

Again, he acquired citizenship legally. There is nothing "fraudulent" about it. You saying it doesn't make it so. Same with you saying I'm "just wrong" or what I said is "just untrue." You need evidence, just as you need evidence to convict someone one a crime before you can strip them totally of their rights.

And Germany was one of the freest nations in the world in the 1920s. We as a nation have "over 200 years of precedent" because of things like due process. Now you want to get rid of it. We don't have castes here. If it happens to one citizen, it can happen to another.

(04-20-2013 08:33 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:51 PM)Smaug Wrote:  You should be comparing him to Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph rather than OBL.

US citizen/terrorist act/US soil.

Hopefully this murderer will suffer a quick demise like McVeigh.

equating mcveigh with this guy is a mistake. it will lead to the flat inability to deal with foreign terrorists that somehow manage to navigate their way through the citizenship process.

the current trend is clearly to acquire citizenship, and then commit terrorist acts. we have got to have the ability to winnow out those individuals.

(04-20-2013 08:38 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:50 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:38 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:27 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  He's been in the US for over a decade. He didn't sign up to do it 7 months ago. From what I've heard his brother was likely the leader of this thing and he was just following along because he looked up to his brother so much. Of course that's speculation but there is a tiny bit of evidence behind it. At any rate, if there's evidence he was a member of a radical group for longer than he's been a citizen, OK. If this plot started after that, or there's no larger group, then try again.

He killed four people. There is a huge reaction to this thing like it was 9/11. Yes, it was a terrible act, and yes, he should and will pay for it, and yes the loss of those four people is horrible. It doesn't mean we should act as if the republic will fall if we don't literally run this guy through a wood chipper.

first of all, the number of people killed in a terrorist act doesn't make it any less of a terrorist act.

there are numerous legal grounds to strip this kid of his citizenship (quite frankly, I was a little surprised until I googled a few things, and I was so surprised that called a lawyer friend of mine)

due process doesn't apply to this ****** in the way you want it to. if the obama administration had any balls, they would be moving to strip him of his citizenship now.

you need to quit equating "what happens to him = what happens to me". you and me aren't him. please, get past that.

Can you direct me to the parts of the Constitution that tell us which citizens that due process does/does not apply to?

You clearly don't understand the concept of precedence. If the gov't decides they can strip citizenship or deny due process because someone is suspected (not "already convicted") of terrorism, they can do it to anyone. Have you seen some of the things that get you put on a terrorist watch list these days?

that is just untrue. you're just wrong. what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

and there is over 200 years of precedent that says you are worried about nothing, and you are willing to risk the ability of the republic to defend itself based upon your wrongness.

Again, he acquired citizenship legally. There is nothing "fraudulent" about it. You saying it doesn't make it so. Same with you saying I'm "just wrong" or what I said is "just untrue." You need evidence, just as you need evidence to convict someone one a crime before you can strip them totally of their rights.

And Germany was one of the freest nations in the world in the 1920s. We as a nation have "over 200 years of precedent" because of things like due process. Now you want to get rid of it. We don't have castes here. If it happens to one citizen, it can happen to another.

equating us with nazi germany is just . . . indefensible.

you have conducted yourself during this debate very admirably thus far, but that one is off the charts.

(04-20-2013 08:40 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:33 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:51 PM)Smaug Wrote:  You should be comparing him to Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph rather than OBL.

US citizen/terrorist act/US soil.

Hopefully this murderer will suffer a quick demise like McVeigh.

equating mcveigh with this guy is a mistake. it will lead to the flat inability to deal with foreign terrorists that somehow manage to navigate their way through the citizenship process.

the current trend is clearly to acquire citizenship, and then commit terrorist acts. we have got to have the ability to winnow out those individuals.

Yes, because navigating through the long, tedious citizenship process is critical to being a successful terrorist. I mean, why just hijack a plane and fly it into a large building, killing thousands, when you can spend a decade in the U.S. peacefully to become a citizen, build a few small time bombs with pressure cookers, and kill four whole people?

Having a good vetting process sure would go a long ways toward our safety.
Should hire the Israelies as part of the process, along with some trusted
Muslims. Hell, sounded like Russia was trying to help us out with this guy
because they made inquiries to us about him, and we didn't even follow up
by checking back on him. We screwed the pooch!

(04-20-2013 08:43 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:38 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:50 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:38 PM)EagleX Wrote:  first of all, the number of people killed in a terrorist act doesn't make it any less of a terrorist act.

there are numerous legal grounds to strip this kid of his citizenship (quite frankly, I was a little surprised until I googled a few things, and I was so surprised that called a lawyer friend of mine)

due process doesn't apply to this ****** in the way you want it to. if the obama administration had any balls, they would be moving to strip him of his citizenship now.

you need to quit equating "what happens to him = what happens to me". you and me aren't him. please, get past that.

Can you direct me to the parts of the Constitution that tell us which citizens that due process does/does not apply to?

You clearly don't understand the concept of precedence. If the gov't decides they can strip citizenship or deny due process because someone is suspected (not "already convicted") of terrorism, they can do it to anyone. Have you seen some of the things that get you put on a terrorist watch list these days?

that is just untrue. you're just wrong. what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

and there is over 200 years of precedent that says you are worried about nothing, and you are willing to risk the ability of the republic to defend itself based upon your wrongness.

Again, he acquired citizenship legally. There is nothing "fraudulent" about it. You saying it doesn't make it so. Same with you saying I'm "just wrong" or what I said is "just untrue." You need evidence, just as you need evidence to convict someone one a crime before you can strip them totally of their rights.

And Germany was one of the freest nations in the world in the 1920s. We as a nation have "over 200 years of precedent" because of things like due process. Now you want to get rid of it. We don't have castes here. If it happens to one citizen, it can happen to another.

equating us with nazi germany is just . . . indefensible.

you have conducted yourself during this debate very admirably thus far, but that one is off the charts.

I didn't equate us with Nazi Germany. You have serious reading comprehension issues if you think I did.

The point is that a nation is nothing without safeguards to protect its citizens from tyranny. Here you are, openly trying to take of the most important ones - the one that has been the cornerstone of every free society since the Magna Carta was signed 800 years ago - down in flames.

(04-20-2013 08:45 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:40 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:33 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:51 PM)Smaug Wrote:  You should be comparing him to Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph rather than OBL.

US citizen/terrorist act/US soil.

Hopefully this murderer will suffer a quick demise like McVeigh.

equating mcveigh with this guy is a mistake. it will lead to the flat inability to deal with foreign terrorists that somehow manage to navigate their way through the citizenship process.

the current trend is clearly to acquire citizenship, and then commit terrorist acts. we have got to have the ability to winnow out those individuals.

Yes, because navigating through the long, tedious citizenship process is critical to being a successful terrorist. I mean, why just hijack a plane and fly it into a large building, killing thousands, when you can spend a decade in the U.S. peacefully to become a citizen, build a few small time bombs with pressure cookers, and kill four whole people?

that's a straw man, and you know it.

the point is that after the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber blew it (and God knows, al quada's "A-team" all seemed to have died on 9/11), terror cells are using our own bureaucracy and our individual freedoms against us.

(04-20-2013 08:49 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:43 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:38 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 08:00 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(04-20-2013 07:50 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  Can you direct me to the parts of the Constitution that tell us which citizens that due process does/does not apply to?

You clearly don't understand the concept of precedence. If the gov't decides they can strip citizenship or deny due process because someone is suspected (not "already convicted") of terrorism, they can do it to anyone. Have you seen some of the things that get you put on a terrorist watch list these days?

that is just untrue. you're just wrong. what happens to a Chechnyan that acquired citizenship in september under fraudulent grounds cant happen to me or you. well, wait. you aren't from chechnya, are you?

and there is over 200 years of precedent that says you are worried about nothing, and you are willing to risk the ability of the republic to defend itself based upon your wrongness.

Again, he acquired citizenship legally. There is nothing "fraudulent" about it. You saying it doesn't make it so. Same with you saying I'm "just wrong" or what I said is "just untrue." You need evidence, just as you need evidence to convict someone one a crime before you can strip them totally of their rights.

And Germany was one of the freest nations in the world in the 1920s. We as a nation have "over 200 years of precedent" because of things like due process. Now you want to get rid of it. We don't have castes here. If it happens to one citizen, it can happen to another.

equating us with nazi germany is just . . . indefensible.

you have conducted yourself during this debate very admirably thus far, but that one is off the charts.

I didn't equate us with Nazi Germany. You have serious reading comprehension issues if you think I did.

The point is that a nation is nothing without safeguards to protect its citizens from tyranny. Here you are, openly trying to take of the most important ones - the one that has been the cornerstone of every free society since the Magna Carta was signed 800 years ago - down in flames.

I reject the notion that he is a legitimate citizen.