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Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
Completely agree with the person that said that it's much more about whether people are first
generation immigrants versus 2nd or 3rd. People are ignoring history of they think that, say Irish and Italian immigrants in the early 20th century somehow assimilated quicker than Latin American and Asian immigrants today. You're just seeing the 1st generation effect right now for many groups.
11-11-2012 03:48 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
I think most people on this board have family that came over many generations ago. I can trace my family to the mountains of western NC all the way back to the mid 1700's. One of my great great great great(you get the point) grandfathers was a Colonel in the revolutionary war. I literally have those mountains in my blood. I don't know anyone personally who immigrated from their homeland so I'm actually offended that anyone more than a third generation citizen identifies themselves as a "________ American". They have no connection to their "homeland' so its like they don't want to be "American", they would rather separate themselves as a subset of American culture. Its the mindset of the "African, Latino, Irish, Native..etc Americans" that makes our nation a salad bowl of individuals who don't want to identify as Americans. I believe our country is made stronger by incorporating many cultures, music, flavors, skin colors and so on I just wish we were all just Americans. When there aren't any ___________ Americans we'll be a stronger less divided nation.
11-11-2012 06:30 PM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-11-2012 08:44 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 08:39 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 07:36 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Salad bowl. Which is good. People should keep their identity. Could you imagine if everybody were the same?

My ancestors came from Sweden and Germany, starting in 1856. I don't know anything about Sweden except they had vikings and they make Volvos. And I don't know anything about Germany except we beat them in two world wars and they have Oktoberfest.

My family completely (and intentionally) left all European traditions in Europe when they arrived in NYC. 150 years ago, they enthusiastically adopted American culture. At this point, it would be impossible for me to start celebrating Swedish or German culture. I'm not going to be able to participate as a salad bowl American.

Many from that region harbored early populist/socialist views and strongly believed in central planning. I'm not sure why, I just don't know enouh about mid-19th C Scandanavian political science, but there was a drive left even among hard-working settlers of MN, WI and IA.

Not saying your family was this way, just pointing out some surprising facts about that wave of immigration.

Germans always liked the central authority, and the Prussian model of developing factory serfs which was the foundation of the US public school system.

I'm from a long line of conservative Republicans. Not one Democrat in the family, except for my sister-in-law's parents.
11-11-2012 11:06 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
I'd laugh at this thread if I didn't know that you people actually believed this sh*t.
11-11-2012 11:08 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-11-2012 11:08 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'd laugh at this thread if I didn't know that you people actually believed this sh*t.

Too bad you never learned why we fought to break free from England.
11-11-2012 11:21 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-11-2012 03:00 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 02:45 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 02:23 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 01:36 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 12:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  I think people view the "melting pot" in a different way than I do. It's not that we have one stagnant culture that all immigrants just dissolve into. Every culture adds to the mixture and the mixture changes over time. We're still a melting pot, IMO.

Agree that we still are a melting pot. I am an american mutt.

I also have no problem with the government helping those who are not comfortable with English. Many public schools offer ESOL, but all subjects are still taught in English.

People come here for a better life as they always have, although more now for economic reasons rather than just persecution.

Why do some think this is no longer the case?

Nobody thinks the reason has change but the mechanics have changed.

A good number of Immigrants in the 1800s went home because they could not make it here. Today you don't have to "make it" you can collect welfare, ssi, rent assistance, utility assistance, footstamps/ebt....

I like the idea of opening the borders with the provision that you get no govt assistance outside of school for kids.

You have a point, but not sure I am ready to agree with it.

I assumed that most who came here in the 1800’s had nothing to go home to, nor the ability to get back. But I am now curios and will try to research that.

For food stamps, you have to legally be here for 5 years or more to qualify (with some exceptions). I assume it is the same for other government benefits. And for rental assistance the waiting list is in the years (at least around here). SSI you have to have paid into the system.

I do not know the eligibility criteria for the other programs.

So while there may be some truth to it, my gut reaction is that these programs are not what keeps them here, but is more of a political narrative for a wedge issue to find a scapegoat.

Oh no doubt some use it to scape goat, just like some use the 1% as scape goats. But youre wrong on the 5 years... That might be in some states but California, for example, has not such limitation, its just one year

In CA you qualify if:
Lawful permanent resident (you have a green card)
Refugee, or were granted asylum or withholding of deportation/removal, or were paroled into the
U.S. for at least one year
Cuban or Haitian entrant
Battered spouse (or child), whose spouse (or parent) has filed a visa petition for you, or you have filed a visa petition for yourself or an application for cancellation of removal under the Violence Against Women Act. There are special rules for domestic violence survivors.

But any requirement related to citizenship goes out the window when a child is born..

GAO noted that: in fiscal year (FY) 1995, about $1.1 billion in Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and Food Stamp benefits were provided to households with an illegal alien parent for the use of his or her citizen child.

So you come across 8 or 9 months pregnant have the baby and there ya go. FWIW my sisted was a labor nurse near el centro, deliverd more illegal babies than babies of citizens.

I had to Google “are resident aliens eligible for food stamps” yesterday since I had no idea what the eligibility requirement were.
This attached link was for Michigan – I do not know how much leeway states have in setting their own rules.

http://www.michiganlegalaid.org/library_...t_download

There are multiple exceptions for legal aliens, many of which you mentioned in the CA requirements.

The next link is regarding the expansion of food stamps to include resident aliens that was passed in 2002 by republicans (and democrats) and expanded by the democrats later. It is actually a blog post about broken government and why would food stamps are attached to the farm bill. It is also from Daly Kos which tends to lean left, but the history appears factual.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/11...Governance

If a child is born in the USA to parents who are not US citizens (or have been here legally for whatever years -with exceptions), the child is eligible for food stamps, but not the parents. Your post even says the food stamps are for the child.

Your sisters experience in El Centro (again had to look up – but assume you mean in CA) – makes sense to me. However I would counter that the drive is to make their children’s life better, which is no different from the mindset the past 400 years.

I have read that many Mexicans drive over the border to have their kid in the USA. I have also read that there are maternity trips from wealthy parents around the world that come to the USA to have their kid. In my opinion they are not doing this to get food stamps, but to give their kids opportunity. I see this as a positive reflection on America.

Long story short – I do not disagree that some people may take advantage of our programs, but in general my opinion Is that the driver for most immigrants are no different than what they have been over the centuries. However just because I have my opinion, it does not mean that I think you are wrong. You brought up multiple programs other than food stamps.
11-12-2012 09:47 AM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-11-2012 11:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(11-11-2012 11:08 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'd laugh at this thread if I didn't know that you people actually believed this sh*t.

Too bad you never learned why we fought to break free from England.

Yeah, that's pertinent to this comment.
11-12-2012 11:58 AM
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miko33 Away
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Post: #28
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-11-2012 03:48 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Completely agree with the person that said that it's much more about whether people are first
generation immigrants versus 2nd or 3rd. People are ignoring history of they think that, say Irish and Italian immigrants in the early 20th century somehow assimilated quicker than Latin American and Asian immigrants today. You're just seeing the 1st generation effect right now for many groups.

To a point Frank, I agree. However the dynamics back then were different than they are today. The Irish and Italian immigrants clustered together more as a result of a lack of acceptance by the native born Americans, and both groups were utilized as cheap labor for the manufacturing plants - like what we see for the cheap labor for illegal immigrants from Mexico and SA. However, the gov't never reached out to these people and out of necessity the Irish and Italians were forced to assimilate as best they could. Today, the Hispanic immigrants are encouraged to maintain their differences. The gov't goes out of its way to accommodate them by providing more freebees from the gov't. Also, they do not appear to have the same urgency to try to learn English like earlier immigrants.

The situations are similar in a number of ways, but the way the gov't is handling the influx of immigrants then vs now is different. I do believe that the melting pot was a more appropriate theme in the past because immigrants were highly encouraged to assimilate. Today, people celebrate the diversity plus a number of politicians promote the idea of group politics - which IMHO changes the perception of America to be more like a salad bowl.
11-12-2012 07:26 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
The way we are heading...I'd say Toilet bowl.
11-12-2012 09:00 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
oh hey a thread where we discuss a current immigrant threat which will clearly change the very fabric of the US, clearly this is different than the 30,000 other immigrant threats we've had in the past that have only resulted in the great country we have today. but this one is different, for realsies.
11-12-2012 10:12 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-12-2012 10:12 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  oh hey a thread where we discuss a current immigrant threat which will clearly change the very fabric of the US, clearly this is different than the 30,000 other immigrant threats we've had in the past that have only resulted in the great country we have today. but this one is different, for realsies.

Wow, someone doesn't know history or math, yet feels inclined to comment. Typical.
11-13-2012 08:12 AM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
The United States have never had a common culture (melting pot). However, we did have a common language and that helped make people feel loyal to the concept of "America". Tomorrow Germans could wake up and they'd still be Germans even if the entire law code of Germany was thrown out the door at midnight and replaced. We don't have that kind of commonality.

What we are is a nation of laws.

Its our laws that bind us together and our "common" sense of purpose and justice. Today, the FedGov violates its basic law (the Constitution) as a matter of doing daily business (both sides), and few believe that the courts hand out fair justice anymore. If we don't have a common language and belief in the laws we have, we no longer have a United States.
11-13-2012 11:15 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
It's been heterogenous and not homogenous for a while now.
11-13-2012 11:23 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Are we a "melting pot" or a "salad bowl"?
(11-12-2012 10:12 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  oh hey a thread where we discuss a current immigrant threat which will clearly change the very fabric of the US, clearly this is different than the 30,000 other immigrant threats we've had in the past that have only resulted in the great country we have today. but this one is different, for realsies.

I have no problem with travelers. I just have no compulsion to provide anything for them that they do not earn. Come..work..participate..Welcome.
Come...take up space...draw a welfare check...Not welcome. Simple
11-13-2012 12:41 PM
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