You're right Robert. Big companies should spread the wealth, and pay all their employees the same. They would really bring in top talent then. I'm sure Dems would be lining up to work there.

(01-27-2009 01:24 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Sorry. I forgot to use the off-topic emoticon. But Obama did come and Bush sent a representative(Bush was probably on vacation). Of course, you probably applaud the guy for using his second amendment rights to bear arms.

Unfortunately, the Good Laws are sometimes late in getting to the 'Bad Guy' before they commit a crime.

The last time I looked, in all "57 States" (Obama's count not mine), it was still Constitutional that, a "Person is Innocent until they Commit a Crime and are Found Guilty".

So even this Murdering Marauder was in his Constitutional Right to Legally Bear Arms until he "Abused that Right" .... now he should be Executed for his Abuse.

It is no Different than handing out Vehicle Drivers Licenses to everyone who passes the Tests .... if the person goes out on their first Licensed day, gets brain mushed drunk, and kills an entire family with his car, it does not mean the License Issuing Authority made a bad judgment call, it means this person Abused Their Right to Drive and I don't see it being any less of a Murder than the Person with a Gun shooting down scores of Innocent People.

We are a Nation of Laws that hopefully takes care of the Criminals once they Abuse the Rest of Us ....

You don't Punish the Innocent to Hurt the Criminal By Proxy - - that is foolish, stupid, and dangerous .... it is not about GUNS, it is about all Constitutional Rights being Totally Protected and Left Alone ....

It is just commons sense man .....

.

(01-27-2009 01:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 12:31 PM)Artifice Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 11:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 10:16 AM)Artifice Wrote:  America will be great again when we can pay every blue collar worker tha same $1.38/month that workers get in 3rd world countries!

So, what do you propose to do instead?

I don't have sweeping ideological answers to questions. If you have a specific question, I can & will share my ideas, but most of this discussion is occurring at the level of knee jerk ideology that grossly ignores reality.

I think the question posed is specific enough that if you have any useful ideas you can share them. The US is losing manufacturing jobs to other countries, at least some (but by no means all) of whom pay workers substantially less than we do. Paying US workers starvation wages is not an option (we agree on that). Losing our manufacturing base is not an option, as without any value-added components of our economy we will be unable to sustain any reasonable level of wealth. We can't deliver each other rich with Domino's or greet each other rich at the front door of Wal-Mart. So what do you do to attract value-added (primarily manufacturing) enterprises to the US?

Historically, we've relied on our cheap materials cost and immediate consumer base to attract manufacturing jobs. Though labor costs continued to rise, it was never here because of cheap labor. I don't see that situation as having changed much.

What has changed is the stimulation of the export of labor to foreign markets where labor costs are so trivial by comparison that there really is a "value add", at least to the capital holders & officers. As we've seen, the tide didn't rise to lift all boats, it rushed out and left many beached.

What I would do, from a high level approach, is to reverse the negative impacts of our free trade agreements, including NAFTA, that have driven down U.S. wages, and created the Maquiladora workers on the border that now comprise a third of Mexico's labor force. I would strongly curtail many US Ag subsidies that end up costing us jobs and have us dumping surplus ag product on the mexican market, detsroying their economy. I would end entitlements for and deport undocumented workers.

But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.

And the biggie? Investment in an entirely new, clean, renewable power grid for the country. Sources (wind, solar, etc), storage, and delivery systems. This is the single biggest investment we can make in this country's future. With modern farming techniques, barring war or distaster, we should always have the ability to feed ourselves, so our number one issue is the ability to be self sufficient energy producers, and dare we think it - supply surplus energy to friendly trade partners around the world. We need to be a world leader in this area. If you think a couple of desert-ridden countries with some backyard crude have power, imagine the U.S. as the major producer of renewable energy...

BTW, I also think that Canada will ultimately challenge us for dominance in this field, if they ever get their act together. They have so much untapped capacity...

(01-27-2009 05:13 PM)Artifice Wrote:  But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.

You do realize that all a tax incentive is is a tax cut, right? So you're essentially saying if you cut the corporate tax rate, more jobs will be created. You concede this point, but want to pick and choose who the winners and losers are. We should cut ALL corporate tax rates. They do NO good as they're just another damn tax on the citizenry. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, our economy is in the tank, and you want to keep that tax rate.

Brilliant. ....I guess in some warped universe.

(01-27-2009 05:56 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 05:13 PM)Artifice Wrote:  But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.

You do realize that all a tax incentive is is a tax cut, right? So you're essentially saying if you cut the corporate tax rate, more jobs will be created. You concede this point, but want to pick and choose who the winners and losers are. We should cut ALL corporate tax rates. They do NO good as they're just another damn tax on the citizenry. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, our economy is in the tank, and you want to keep that tax rate.

Brilliant. ....I guess in some warped universe.

haha, I thought the same thing thing when I read the corporate income tax thing.

(01-27-2009 05:56 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 05:13 PM)Artifice Wrote:  But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.

You do realize that all a tax incentive is is a tax cut, right? So you're essentially saying if you cut the corporate tax rate, more jobs will be created. You concede this point, but want to pick and choose who the winners and losers are. We should cut ALL corporate tax rates. They do NO good as they're just another damn tax on the citizenry. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, our economy is in the tank, and you want to keep that tax rate.

Good lord, no I would not cut all corporate taxes. #1) It's not an incentive if everyone gets it, and #2) reduced taxes will just put more bonuses in officers back pockets.

But hey, you should definitely keep misreading other peoples' arguments and then trying to put words in their mouths. It really illustrates your binary thinking and inability to see a fine point. I really love the ideological retort too. You couldn't be any more of a drone. How is everyday life plagued with the inability of critical thought?

(01-27-2009 07:39 PM)Artifice Wrote:  Good lord, no I would not cut all corporate taxes. #1) It's not an incentive if everyone gets it, and #2) reduced taxes will just put more bonuses in officers back pockets.

Yeah, that's it.

What do you think a CEO should be paid? 100 grand a year?

A business doesn't exist to provide more damn money for a CEO. It exists to collect a profit. In this instance, those profits go in the form of dividends or stocks. This creates more investing. Add that coupled with the extra money saved from having no taxes, the companies can hire more individuals, lower the cost of their goods, and invest more into research and development.

You anti-corporate hacks lack the intelligence to debate this topic. You use knee-jerk statements like "fatcat CEO" and "evil corporations" and "greed" like it lends merit to your argument. It doesn't in the least.

Our corporate tax rates are the MAIN driving factor in the elimination of American jobs.

(01-27-2009 07:39 PM)Artifice Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 05:56 PM)Rebel Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 05:13 PM)Artifice Wrote:  But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.

You do realize that all a tax incentive is is a tax cut, right? So you're essentially saying if you cut the corporate tax rate, more jobs will be created. You concede this point, but want to pick and choose who the winners and losers are. We should cut ALL corporate tax rates. They do NO good as they're just another damn tax on the citizenry. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the industrialized world, our economy is in the tank, and you want to keep that tax rate.

Brilliant. ....I guess in some warped universe.

Good lord, no I would not cut all corporate taxes. #1) It's not an incentive if everyone gets it, and #2) reduced taxes will just put more bonuses in officers back pockets.

But hey, you should definitely keep misreading other peoples' arguments and then trying to put words in their mouths. It really illustrates your binary thinking and inability to see a fine point. I really love the ideological retort too. You couldn't be any more of a drone. How is everyday life plagued with the inability of critical thought?

Corporations do NOT pay taxes...ONLY individuals pay taxes!!!! Corporations pass on their theft burden to the consumer. ANY reduction of taxes on business results in lowering of prices of goods and services. Yes...a company may take the risk and try to not pass the savings on to the consumer...but...That is were competition comes into play. You can damn well be assured that a competitor in search of your market share will be more than willing to undercut you on price. This is not rocket science...but...I am constantly amazed that people fail to understand that business taxes are simply part of overhead and have NO impact on the business other than pricing of the product or service they provide to the marketplace and making businesses vulnerable to foreign competition.

(01-27-2009 07:39 PM)Artifice Wrote:  Good lord, no I would not cut all corporate taxes. #1) It's not an incentive if everyone gets it,

Uh, not everyone runs a company. I would think that's kind of obvious.

(01-27-2009 10:16 AM)Artifice Wrote:  America will be great again when we can pay every blue collar worker tha same $1.38/month that workers get in 3rd world countries!

Blue collar workers will get an immediate raise if they decertify their unions. They would also have the ability to earn more money and promotions based on their ability and productivity rather than what some union negotiator can strong arm the company out of. You do realize that no matter how good an employee is if he's in a union his salary is locked and his incentive to be productive is lessened thus the company makes less profit.

But you're a liberal and you believe that unions and higher taxes solve everything.

(01-27-2009 08:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 10:16 AM)Artifice Wrote:  America will be great again when we can pay every blue collar worker tha same $1.38/month that workers get in 3rd world countries!

Blue collar workers will get an immediate raise if they decertify their unions. They would also have the ability to earn more money and promotions based on their ability and productivity rather than what some union negotiator can strong arm the company out of. You do realize that no matter how good an employee is if he's in a union his salary is locked and his incentive to be productive is lessened thus the company makes less profit.

But you're a liberal and you believe that unions and higher taxes solve everything.

Unions are collectivism at its worst and total tools of socialism. F'm

Good to see independent conservatives, Republicans, and Libertarians coming together again.

(01-27-2009 08:16 PM)Rebel Wrote:  Good to see independent conservatives, Republicans, and Libertarians coming together again.

What am I?...the redheaded stepchild?.....How about...Pro Liberty or FreeMarketeer?.......I removed myself from membership in the LP when they picked that douche Babar. The LP is no longer the party of principle.

(01-27-2009 08:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  But you're a liberal and you believe that unions and higher taxes solve everything.

You're a child molester and you believe that everyone has a right to sodomize a child.

If you're going to employ that many fallacies in any argument, and continue to examine everything from not only a partisan, but also an ideologue lense, then I'm not going to waste time with you. And frankly, you can **** right the **** off with your bull****.

(01-27-2009 08:27 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  What am I?...the redheaded stepchild?.....How about...Pro Liberty or FreeMarketeer?.......I removed myself from membership in the LP when they picked that douche Babar. The LP is no longer the party of principle.

Geeze !!!!!

There are no viable Parties left to be a part of ...

Rep's have sold out - - Dem's bought the Rep's when they sold out - - LP's are acting more like Rep's just before the Sell Out ...

Where do we look for Leadership ???

How about "We The People" once again ....

It seems like a good time to start over from Scratch .....

.

(01-27-2009 08:46 PM)Artifice Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 08:07 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  But you're a liberal and you believe that unions and higher taxes solve everything.

You're a child molester and you believe that everyone has a right to sodomize a child.

If you're going to employ that many fallacies in any argument, and continue to examine everything from not only a partisan, but also an ideologue lense, then I'm not going to waste time with you. And frankly, you can **** right the **** off with your bull****.

Fallacies? Name one.

BTW, my mom used to tell me that people curse because they don't know very many words.

(01-27-2009 09:18 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  BTW, my mom used to tell me that people curse because they don't know very many words.

Hey, **** you. I know a **** load of words.

(01-27-2009 08:51 PM)Tripster Wrote:  

(01-27-2009 08:27 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  What am I?...the redheaded stepchild?.....How about...Pro Liberty or FreeMarketeer?.......I removed myself from membership in the LP when they picked that douche Babar. The LP is no longer the party of principle.

Geeze !!!!!

There are no viable Parties left to be a part of ...

Rep's have sold out - - Dem's bought the Rep's when they sold out - - LP's are acting more like Rep's just before the Sell Out ...

Where do we look for Leadership ???

How about "We The People" once again ....

It seems like a good time to start over from Scratch .....

.

No...I like "Me the Person"...for the first time....Collectivism sucks.

What about and new term...."Voluntarist"
I only care about protection of private property rights(including ourselves) and observing the axiom of non-aggression in regard to my neighbors. I know that to live free...I must allow my neighbors to also do so as long as they do not initiate aggression against me. I am willing to voluntarily support with the fruits of my labor any worthwhile project or programs that will better society as long as it does not finance itself from a position force.
I fully support the principles of the free market and any mans venture into it. I understand that only through a totally unfettered free market can man truely live a life of economic freedom and free choice.

Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.