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US Economy hit bottom...
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.

Why is your reputation at -20?
01-27-2009 09:35 PM
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Post: #42
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Yeah, I'm thinking you're wrong on that. High tax rates and NAFTA had a lot to do with it. Who signed NAFTA? Hmmm....

Quote:Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

How, when he didn't even implement true Reaganomics? I'll wait for your response.

Quote:The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.

Trillion(s)? Where are you getting your information, kid?
01-27-2009 09:36 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #43
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.

Your first statement is total poppycock.03-lmfao...but....

I will totally agree with you on the last one...The war really f'd up this countries economy.04-cheers
01-27-2009 09:37 PM
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Post: #44
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:37 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I will totally agree with you on the last one...The war really f'd up this countries economy.04-cheers

His last statement is wrong and war generally boosts an economy. Never in the history of this country have we come out of a recession/depression by spending more. ...because what they spend it on doesn't boost the economy. Wars and tax cuts always have. A war brought us out of the Great Depression. I'm sure the rewritten history major that is RockyMtnFan will tell us we're all wrong....at his ripe young age of, what are you, 20 Rocky?

....on edit, the Democratic Congress has approved his budget for the last two years as well. ...yeah, it's all GOP. /sarcasm
01-27-2009 09:40 PM
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RockyMtnRamfan Offline
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Post: #45
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:35 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.

Why is your reputation at -20?

Most Republicans need something to feel superiority since they don't have it where it counts.
01-27-2009 09:46 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 08:46 PM)Artifice Wrote:  You're a child molester and you believe that everyone has a right to sodomize a child.
If you're going to employ that many fallacies in any argument, and continue to examine everything from not only a partisan, but also an ideologue lense, then I'm not going to waste time with you. And frankly, you can **** right the **** off with your bull****.

If you're going to conduct yourself in that manner, I have no interest in continuing a conversation with you.

I'd actually like to engage on some of the points you made in the longer post replying to me, but I refuse to put up with this sort of thing.
01-27-2009 10:04 PM
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Tripster Offline
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Post: #47
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Bush proved Reaganomics wrong, with help from his rubber-stamp colleagues from 2000-2006. The Democrats did not have enough votes to veto-proof anything on this "voodoo economic" plan.

The Iraq War also costs trillions of dollars, that is strapped with Bush and the GOP.

Were you and RobertN a pair of Siamese Twins connected at your Water Heads or something ????

And I mean this from the truest part of my heart ... you have got to be the Stupidest SOB I have ever witnessed on a Forum and you don't even care that you are in this kind of sad shape.

Go ahead and try to hand it back to me, but Hun, you is pathetic ... 04-rock :ncaabbs:

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01-27-2009 11:28 PM
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kickpush Offline
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Post: #48
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
im getting nervous everyday that im going to get laid off
01-28-2009 03:13 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #49
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 07:59 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(01-27-2009 07:39 PM)Artifice Wrote:  Good lord, no I would not cut all corporate taxes. #1) It's not an incentive if everyone gets it,

Uh, not everyone runs a company. I would think that's kind of obvious.
03-lmfao Go back to bed. We will wake you up when this conversation ends. When he used "everyone" he was obviously(well, maybe not so obvious since it went right over your head) making a comment about companies.
01-28-2009 04:43 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #50
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:40 PM)Rebel Wrote:  
(01-27-2009 09:37 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I will totally agree with you on the last one...The war really f'd up this countries economy.04-cheers

His last statement is wrong and war generally boosts an economy. Never in the history of this country have we come out of a recession/depression by spending more. ...because what they spend it on doesn't boost the economy. Wars and tax cuts always have. A war brought us out of the Great Depression. I'm sure the rewritten history major that is RockyMtnFan will tell us we're all wrong....at his ripe young age of, what are you, 20 Rocky?

....on edit, the Democratic Congress has approved his budget for the last two years as well. ...yeah, it's all GOP. /sarcasm

I suppose its been great for the industrial military complex It's not been so great for us that make a living without the "gun in room" to support us.
01-28-2009 06:31 AM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #51
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 10:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd actually like to engage on some of the points you made in the longer post replying to me.

Please do. Unlike other people on this board, you honestly engage. I really enjoy reading your replies.
01-28-2009 09:00 AM
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Cletus Offline
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Post: #52
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
Recently I briefly watched an interview on some Business Channel of a Government Policy wonk and a Editor from Car & Driver.

The Host and they were discussing the Obama Administrations announced future green requirements for US Autos. You know requirements like mileage, green requirements, etc.

The Car & Driver guy said that technology didn't currently exist that would meet Obamas requirements.

He went on to say that everyone would have to drive compacts or subcompacts. That even for those models to conform it would drive up the cost of vehicles $4,000.00 per auto.

Also he noted that Autos aren't currently moving off the Dealer lots and wanted to know how adding $4,000.00 per auto would stimulate sales.

The policy wonk just kept mindlessly repeating his mantra.



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01-28-2009 09:21 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #53
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Yeah, then why were all those factories locking gates in the 1970s?

Go rewatch the beginning of "Invincible"...or try doing some research on your own and stop parroting your professors who revise history to match their flawed philosophies.
01-28-2009 09:30 AM
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Tripster Offline
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Post: #54
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 09:30 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(01-27-2009 09:32 PM)RockyMtnRamfan Wrote:  Reaganomics brought down the USA. From going to a manufacturing and producing nation, we became a nation full of debtors.

Yeah, then why were all those factories locking gates in the 1970s?

Go rewatch the beginning of "Invincible"...or try doing some research on your own and stop parroting your professors who revise history to match their flawed philosophies.

The "Boy" (and I do stress that word), who is our very own Fine Arts Major, lived back then and he KNOWS this stuff now !!!!!

He worked so very hard and lived much life back in the 60's & 70's and he even went to war in Southeast Asia, so he knows all about war and economies and such types of Fine Arts Teachings.

He knew Ronald Reagan personally and is able to tell us all off about how he learned in Fine Arts Class, that economies rely on the Fine Arts and we need concern ourselves with nothing else to survive ... just some Bach, Mint Juleps, and an Easel filled with fresh paints and Life is Good !!!!

Not to worry about 10 Trillion dollars in Raw Debt hovering over us all, that Obami is going push the Debt Up Too .... but just enjoy life and squish your toes in the sand and FEEL GOOD - - Just FEEL GOOD people !!!!

That's the secret we are all not getting, but he is .... oh the lessons we could learn from our Children if we would just submit ..... 03-melodramatic

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01-28-2009 10:26 AM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #55
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
7 years at war in Iraq. Cost about 1.25 trillion. Obama first week in office set to spend 1.1 trillion. No you tell me which is going to have the worse effect on the economy.
The root cause of the problems we have now, are because of $4 a gallon gasoline, and the unchecked housing loan programs. Both of which came about because of the 545 people we have running the country.

When gas hit $4.00 mostly because of speculators, Bush should have frozen prices at $2.00 a gallon, a harsh option, but would have stopped the fall of consumer confidence, and a much better option than his FAILED BAILOUT PACKAGE. Paulson should be strung up by the gonads, and displayed in public.
01-28-2009 12:49 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 12:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  7 years at war in Iraq. Cost about 1.25 trillion. Obama first week in office set to spend 1.1 trillion. No you tell me which is going to have the worse effect on the economy.
The root cause of the problems we have now, are because of $4 a gallon gasoline, and the unchecked housing loan programs. Both of which came about because of the 545 people we have running the country.

When gas hit $4.00 mostly because of speculators, Bush should have frozen prices at $2.00 a gallon, a harsh option, but would have stopped the fall of consumer confidence, and a much better option than his FAILED BAILOUT PACKAGE. Paulson should be strung up by the gonads, and displayed in public.

I would say $2.50...but that's an interesting point.

Of course Bush would have been hammered on both sides of the aisle (and the war, and loan crisis would still be with us) just like he was when steel was being flooded into the US c. 2002. He got hammered by the WTO, and all the libertarians. Then US manufacturing was decimated, China's demand soared and prices doubled...w/ no one in the US able to take advantage. The final straw, the unions still blame Bush.

Anyway, I respect both sides of this debate...but they're going to have to learn to cooperate on such issues.
01-28-2009 02:00 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 09:00 AM)Artifice Wrote:  
(01-27-2009 10:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I'd actually like to engage on some of the points you made in the longer post replying to me.
Please do. Unlike other people on this board, you honestly engage. I really enjoy reading your replies.
...
Historically, we've relied on our cheap materials cost and immediate consumer base to attract manufacturing jobs. Though labor costs continued to rise, it was never here because of cheap labor. I don't see that situation as having changed much.
What has changed is the stimulation of the export of labor to foreign markets where labor costs are so trivial by comparison that there really is a "value add", at least to the capital holders & officers. As we've seen, the tide didn't rise to lift all boats, it rushed out and left many beached.
What I would do, from a high level approach, is to reverse the negative impacts of our free trade agreements, including NAFTA, that have driven down U.S. wages, and created the Maquiladora workers on the border that now comprise a third of Mexico's labor force. I would strongly curtail many US Ag subsidies that end up costing us jobs and have us dumping surplus ag product on the mexican market, detsroying their economy. I would end entitlements for and deport undocumented workers.
But, rather than eliminating corporate income taxes, which ultimately just puts more money back in the fat cats' hands, I would continue to push tax credit incentives for American job creation and retention. We cannot be protectionist and have a future either. We need to spur new growth such as foreign owned auto plants (Hyundai in 'Bama) that create valuable jobs. Despite what most think, I'd give even more credit for jobs that ultimately create a trade surplus for the country.
And the biggie? Investment in an entirely new, clean, renewable power grid for the country. Sources (wind, solar, etc), storage, and delivery systems. This is the single biggest investment we can make in this country's future. With modern farming techniques, barring war or distaster, we should always have the ability to feed ourselves, so our number one issue is the ability to be self sufficient energy producers, and dare we think it - supply surplus energy to friendly trade partners around the world. We need to be a world leader in this area. If you think a couple of desert-ridden countries with some backyard crude have power, imagine the U.S. as the major producer of renewable energy...
BTW, I also think that Canada will ultimately challenge us for dominance in this field, if they ever get their act together. They have so much untapped capacity...

OK, I'll give you a few thoughts back in reply.

As for reversing the negative impacts of NAFTA, I'm wondering what you have in mind here. The standard leftist (including Obama) approach is that we're going to somehow change NAFTA. Well, excuse me, but Canada and Mexico are parties to NAFTA and they are both sovereign nations and I don't think we are just going to dictate changes to them. Suppose we say, "This needs to be changed," and they say (as I suspect they will in at least some cases), "F you." Now what? I find it interesting that the left objects so vigorously when the Bushies dictate to Iraq, but they have no qualms about doing the same to Canada and Mexico. NAFTA is a convenient whipping boy, but I think an inappropriate one:
1. Any job that moved offshore to anywhere but Canada or Mexico has absolutely nothing to do with NAFTA.
2. Most of the jobs that moved to Canada or Mexico went there because of unhappiness with the USA. They were going somewhere offshore anyway. The effect of NAFTA was that they went to Canada or Mexico rather than going to China or Thailand.
3. The jobs that are left can be attributed to NAFTA, at least in part, but they are far fewer than NAFTA's attackers would have you believe.

We're in a global economic battle. It's fierce, if friendly competition. Our labor costs are higher than much of the competition, always have been, and hopefully always will be. Historically we have been able to compete because we won in other areas--proximity to US market, productivity of US workers, tax advantages, lower perceived risk. It's those advantages that we have lost in the last few years. We need to either (1) get them back, (2) find others to replace them, (3) cut wages to the bone (not a viable idea), or (4) get used to being a banana republic. Perot is the last US politician who understood this, and we've done next to nothing to address these concerns since he first brought them to light in 1992.

Your idea of alternative energy is a good one, and something that we need to pursue, perhaps even more aggressively on some fronts than you suggest. In particular, I think that the improvement of electric storage technology (which you mention) is probably the keystone to turning energy around--and nobody but you or me is even talking about it. The problem is that alternative energy proponents just aren't realistic about the enormity of the problem. The kinds of initiatives that they are pushing as the solution won't amount to enough to dent the problem. Couple of examples. Obama says that he wants to double the amount of energy from alternatives in three years. If he does that, and nothing else, and historic trends continue, then three years from now we'll be importing more foreign oil than we are today. The anticipated decline in domestic production if we don't start drilling will more than offset the increased energy gained from alternatives. Obama also says that he wants a million electric cars on the road by 2015. If we do that, and do nothing else, we'll import more oil in 2015 than we do now. Of course, if we put more than a million electric cars on the road by 2015, and don't fix our electricity supply, we'll have nationwide rolling brownouts when people come home and start to charge their cars. We need to emulate Brasil--an all hands on deck solution is the only thing that will work. What would probably help most immediately is importing sugar cane ethanol from latin america to supplement domestic corn ethanol. Given Obama's ties to the agri-business giants I doubt we'll see that; nor are we likely to see any overhaul of the agricultural subsidy programs you mention correctly as needing drastic changes. As for your idea of exporting energy, when what we are producing is electricity, it's going to be dicey to develop much of an export market. Canda (which won't need it) and Mexico are options. But go much past that and transmission issues will doom it. Of course if using electricity allows us to export some of our own coal and oil, maybe that would work.

As for your thoughts about corporate taxes, as long as you hold the view of management that you expressed, you're not going to be able to look objectively at what is needed. Democrats can talk all they want about Reaganomics failing, but that's not the message that the rest of the world got. Bill Clinton did exactly what supply-side economics says you should do--keep tax rates lower than the competition, cut spending, and the economy will boom and the budget will balance. The rest of the world took note, and tax rates have plummeted all around us over the last 15-20 years. If we're going to be competitive, we're going to have to join them, regardless of what you feel personally about the issue. We're not going to tax corporations at 40% (including state taxes) and take jobs away from Ireland who taxes them at 12.5%; it's just not going to happen. Another thing I question about liberals is that, for all their talk about the need to engage other countries diplomatically, there's little about engaging economically and basing our policies on how we should best respond to what's going on elsewhere. We ignore these developments at our peril.
01-28-2009 06:30 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #58
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 09:21 AM)Cletus Wrote:  Recently I briefly watched an interview on some Business Channel of a Government Policy wonk and a Editor from Car & Driver.

The Host and they were discussing the Obama Administrations announced future green requirements for US Autos. You know requirements like mileage, green requirements, etc.

The Car & Driver guy said that technology didn't currently exist that would meet Obamas requirements.

He went on to say that everyone would have to drive compacts or subcompacts. That even for those models to conform it would drive up the cost of vehicles $4,000.00 per auto.

Also he noted that Autos aren't currently moving off the Dealer lots and wanted to know how adding $4,000.00 per auto would stimulate sales.

The policy wonk just kept mindlessly repeating his mantra.



[Image: fresh-orange.gif]

.

Details....Details!!! Since when do Democrats worry about small insignificant thinks like technology or cost to consumer. We've got to lower Carbon emissions so the greenhouse conditions will reverse in 1,000 years. Mandatory fuel standards are also the best and only way to lower dependence on foreign oil. Exploration for new oil fields in US territory won't help. Think Liberal tree hugger it's the only way.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2009 08:34 PM by THE NC Herd Fan.)
01-28-2009 08:33 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 08:33 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  
(01-28-2009 09:21 AM)Cletus Wrote:  Recently I briefly watched an interview on some Business Channel of a Government Policy wonk and a Editor from Car & Driver.

The Host and they were discussing the Obama Administrations announced future green requirements for US Autos. You know requirements like mileage, green requirements, etc.

The Car & Driver guy said that technology didn't currently exist that would meet Obamas requirements.

He went on to say that everyone would have to drive compacts or subcompacts. That even for those models to conform it would drive up the cost of vehicles $4,000.00 per auto.

Also he noted that Autos aren't currently moving off the Dealer lots and wanted to know how adding $4,000.00 per auto would stimulate sales.

The policy wonk just kept mindlessly repeating his mantra.



[Image: fresh-orange.gif]

.

Details....Details!!! Since when do Democrats worry about small insignificant thinks like technology or cost to consumer. We've got to lower Carbon emissions so the greenhouse conditions will reverse in 1,000 years. Mandatory fuel standards are also the best and only way to lower dependence on foreign oil. Exploration for new oil fields in US territory won't help. Think Liberal tree hugger it's the only way.

On Fox News (I can already hear the libs moaning) I heard a guy say that people will continue to drive their current vehicles for as long as they possibly could to avoid buying a car they may not want. The auto industry is already hurting and this will only make it worse. Way to go Obama!
01-28-2009 09:28 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #60
RE: US Economy hit bottom...
(01-28-2009 06:30 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We ignore these developments at our peril.

Owl, I have some pretty strong opinions in rebuttal of what you said, especially regarding your interpretation of some of my opinions. I'll revisit them later. I also don't care for a lecturing tone.

Main thing I wanted to say is how many points you lose with me everytime you bring up the partisan/ideologue crap. The leftists this, the liberals that, the ideological "analysis". If you really want to discuss issues with me, you're going to have to accept that I hold absolutely zero political loyalty, nor do I have any type of of ideological agenda or belief system. All of that stuff is absolute bullcrap - it's weak reasoning that even you use in place of actual analysis.

I don't have any affiliation when I look at the problems we have. I try to take a practical approach of what works and what doesn't. This board is nauseatingly right wing ideologue, so I'm probably wasting my time.

As for your Clinton & taxes point - his tax plan was nowhere near that simplistic, and your summary is a misrepresentation of what it was. As a functional matter, an overwhelming super majority of new businesses are pass through entities (S Corps LLCs, etc), so the only businesses affected by C Corp tax changes would be the big giants, many of which are so awash in cash (Exxon literally doesnt know what to do with all of it), that the last thing they need is carte blanche to hoard even more. If you put incentives in place, then you will encourage targeted growth and development as capital races to favorable status.

I thought be saying "the most important thing" and "here's the biggie" wouldn't leave anyone the ability to underestimate my belief of the importance of developing a multinfunctional, mutli-storage and deliverable renewable energy grid. It's up there with curing cancer, and should be a national priority on par with WWII or the race to the moon. Not only would the finished, national scale system deliver generations of prosperity and autonomous security, but the developmental technologies would be huge in the world marketplace. We could solve our economic problems, some pollution problems (we'll invariably create more though), and put this country back on track towards a positive mindset.

In the meantime, we also need to dump a disturbing amount of money into infrastructure repair and development. The good side of this is that it has the ability to create stability in the form of long term jobs. Personally, Im disappointed with the stimulus bill here. I think it has too much pork and not enough of this, contrary to promises.

I have much more to say but I have some business to attend to.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2009 10:28 AM by Artifice.)
01-29-2009 10:27 AM
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