Machiavelli Wrote:Grew up near Oak Harbor huh? Now this is getting wierd. I competed against them in high school too. Coach Quiz has a great program. I suspect you competed against their third chair trumpet player at half time..... Just My guess........

Let's see, so now you make fun of band kids?

I'm not big into bands, but I think it's funny how a loving, caring teacher can switch over to making fun of kids so quickly. What comes out of one's mouth is a reflection of one's heart.

If you were the compassionate, tolerant, progressive liberal that you like to think you are, you wouldn't be so quick to insult people.

Machiavelli Wrote:Affluent suburb???????? What of Genoa???????????????? Stop, just stop!!! It's totally agrarian.

Really?

a

DrTorch Wrote:What about Cleveland's Flats?

You must not have been up there lately, really run down like Main Street in Cincinnati.

Quote:A prof from GMU (named Florida) has postulated the same thing as what you wrote. I'd propose it's a superficial and flawed analysis, more of a correlation than causation.

Hip 20-somethings go to where the jobs are...and carve out their own districts.

Maybe, but from personal experience it has been exactly opposite. I have friends that right out of college (UCincy) had jobs but they decided to leave after a few years due to the lack of social places to hang around. They have moved south to places like Atlanta.

Quote:hip 20-somethings don't bring an upturn to a local economy...jobs do. Even in Silicon Valley, it's the old money that sponsors the youthful innovation.

True, but generally the youth have the most cutting edge job potential, not the 40-somethings in the city.

Quote:So Florida's thesis is all smoke-and-mirrors. But, alot of cities (including Cincinnati) have gotten on-board trying to use it as a lure. Stupid-is as stupid-does.

Cincinnati needs to do something to keep the local graduates around. I didn't stay long after graduation, although I didn't move far away (Dayton). Not that Dayton is any more hip, but cost of living is cheaper while wages are about the same.

Quote:Ohio's problems start in the center: Columbus and Ohio State. Columbus sucks the state dry, of dollars and talent. Ohio St is a 3rd rate university w/ a bloated budget. It's fat and lazy and provides little innovation, and definitely a horrendous ROI. The administration purpoesly goes out of its way to do harm to the other state universities.

I can agree about OSU, they continually get nice budgets while schools like UC, Akron, BGSU, OU, etc., have to find new sources of revenue to keep their budgets about equal. Unfortunately OSU has unfettered access to the politicians in Columbus, and most of the state is crazy about Ohio State (due to football) so the politicians don't want to piss off any of the OSU contingent around the state.

Quote:It also needs to revise its tax code. It's one of the worst in the country. It is one of the most expensive for business (that doesn't get much attention, although they did revise it a couple of years ago) however, there are all sorts of ways around it w/ abatements. So really you get the worst of all possible worlds:
A high tax code that deters new business from locating or starting there
AND
Low receipts b/c the ones that do locate there have figured out the system so they don't pay those taxes!

Totally agree with this.

Quote:As for teachers, having a few that actually know what they're talking about wouldn't hurt.

You know my feelings on this. You are generalizing the situation, I don't believe Ohio has any more "dumb" teachers than anybody else. I think you might be blinded by your feelings that most teachers are liberal. In SW Ohio that is definitely not true, can't say for sure about NE Ohio.

Quote:Trendy neighborhoods and nightclubs won't solve Ohio's problems. And the suggestions made by the committee that wrote this article are mostly window-dressing that make them look important.

I agree they won't solve the problems, but they can go a long way to helping keep younger people around, especially the high tech people that Ohio has talked about keeping for years.

I've been offered jobs out in Washington, D.C. over the last year and the only thing that keeps me around is the low cost of living here in Dayton, Ohio. In terms of entertainment, it is no comparison. DC, NYC, Atlanta, etc., all are much better geared towards younger people than Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, or Dayton.

mlb Wrote:

DrTorch Wrote:What about Cleveland's Flats?

You must not have been up there lately, really run down like Main Street in Cincinnati.

Actually, I've never been there. I was just asking. It was pretty popular not that many years ago. I think it's indicative of how these things are cyclical.

Quote:

Quote:A prof from GMU (named Florida) has postulated the same thing as what you wrote. I'd propose it's a superficial and flawed analysis, more of a correlation than causation.

Hip 20-somethings go to where the jobs are...and carve out their own districts.

Maybe, but from personal experience it has been exactly opposite. I have friends that right out of college (UCincy) had jobs but they decided to leave after a few years due to the lack of social places to hang around. They have moved south to places like Atlanta.

Maybe so. I won't argue that point. I will point out that the places that are "hip" are not always obvious. Omaha was popular in the late '90s, and may still be. Salt Lake City, not exactly a wild place, is pretty popular, as is Boise. Maybe the outdoor life is appealling.

What I will say is that it's been observed that people may leave in their 20s, but want to return in their 30s and 40s. I'll try to dig up links on that. But it leads to this...

Quote:

Quote:hip 20-somethings don't bring an upturn to a local economy...jobs do. Even in Silicon Valley, it's the old money that sponsors the youthful innovation.

True, but generally the youth have the most cutting edge job potential, not the 40-somethings in the city.

Depends on what you're looking at. Maybe in software, but in hardware and systems engineering, experience pays off.

Quote:Cincinnati needs to do something to keep the local graduates around. I didn't stay long after graduation, although I didn't move far away (Dayton). Not that Dayton is any more hip, but cost of living is cheaper while wages are about the same.

Good choice. Dayton is getting alot of innovation. I think Columbus allows it b/c it's never been threatened by Dayton, and even they realize it would be dumb to turn down the dollars that flow through WPAFB.

I was at a conference two weeks ago, and a couple of 40 and 50 somethings were talking about how boring Dayton was. When I asked them why they thought this, they could only express that Dayton had 1 Indian restaurant.
Frankly, that seems like a pretty weak argument for bashing a city, when you have museums, sports teams and recreational opportunities.

Quote:Ohio's problems start in the center: Columbus and Ohio State. Columbus sucks the state dry, of dollars and talent. Ohio St is a 3rd rate university w/ a bloated budget. It's fat and lazy and provides little innovation, and definitely a horrendous ROI. The administration purpoesly goes out of its way to do harm to the other state universities.

Quote: Unfortunately OSU has unfettered access to the politicians in Columbus,and most of the state is crazy about Ohio State (due to football) so the politicians don't want to piss off any of the OSU contingent around the state.

Bingo!

Quote:

Quote:As for teachers, having a few that actually know what they're talking about wouldn't hurt.

You know my feelings on this. You are generalizing the situation, I don't believe Ohio has any more "dumb" teachers than anybody else. I think you might be blinded by your feelings that most teachers are liberal. In SW Ohio that is definitely not true, can't say for sure about NE Ohio.

I'm from NW Ohio, and most of my teachers were very conservative. However, the trend in education, throughout the whole country, is problematic. Not that it's "liberal" but rather the philosophy behind it, and the strategies and techniques that arise are counterproductive to good education.
This isn't necessarily new (read some of those Gatto articles) but other parts of the world are jumping past the US b/c of it.

Quote:

Quote:Trendy neighborhoods and nightclubs won't solve Ohio's problems. And the suggestions made by the committee that wrote this article are mostly window-dressing that make them look important.

I agree they won't solve the problems, but they can go a long way to helping keep younger people around, especially the high tech people that Ohio has talked about keeping for years.

I've been offered jobs out in Washington, D.C. over the last year and the only thing that keeps me around is the low cost of living here in Dayton, Ohio. In terms of entertainment, it is no comparison. DC, NYC, Atlanta, etc., all are much better geared towards younger people than Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, or Dayton.

People say that, and perhaps it's true. But, you can only do so much. Everyone in a big city always says they never visit the sites unless they have company. I haven't been to museums in years. When I hit the bar scene, it didn't seem that much different, except prices were very high.

Of course these days I'm old, and back then I probably didn't understand what drove people to pricey clubs anyway.

I still think that if Boise and Omaha can make a go of it, so can Cincy and Cleveland.

Oak Harbor School District is called BCS. Benton Carol and Salem townships you ninny. It's mostly agricultural. Except for that big nuclear power plant that dominates the sky line. Your pathetic! You researched just the town of Oak Harbor.

Mach, cool your jets. Do you have the stats for BCS?

mlb Wrote:Totally ridiculous comment to start out the post. Just because Ohio in general is not doing well in science does not mean that a certain poker playing teacher on this site is not a good science teacher.

Edit (addition):

Last I heard Ohio was offering incentives to anybody who has a science or math related degree to come in and teach. Unfortunately anybody who gets a degree in those subject areas want more money than what the teachers are paid. Why take a job that starts at $25-$30K a year when you can get paid $50K?

One of his things about Obama I really like is his pragmatic approach on teachers.

You want to encourage the best people to go into teaching? You want to retain the best teachers? Dramatically increase pay.

in exchange for paying a teacher a package of 50k though... The school districts get to have A LOT more accountability from the teachers. Know how hard it is to fire a teacher now know matter how badly they are doing?

Well, tit for tat. Pay them like private-sector professionals, but demand private-sector accountability.

Thats the kind of solution I like. It would encourage very talented people to go into the teaching field. It would give teachers the resources they need. But it would give school districts leverage to expect a lot more in return, and separate the wheat from the chaff.

OUGwave Wrote:

mlb Wrote:Totally ridiculous comment to start out the post. Just because Ohio in general is not doing well in science does not mean that a certain poker playing teacher on this site is not a good science teacher.

Edit (addition):

Last I heard Ohio was offering incentives to anybody who has a science or math related degree to come in and teach. Unfortunately anybody who gets a degree in those subject areas want more money than what the teachers are paid. Why take a job that starts at $25-$30K a year when you can get paid $50K?

One of his things about Obama I really like is his pragmatic approach on teachers.

You want to encourage the best people to go into teaching? You want to retain the best teachers? Dramatically increase pay.

in exchange for paying a teacher a package of 50k though... The school districts get to have A LOT more accountability from the teachers. Know how hard it is to fire a teacher now know matter how badly they are doing?

Well, tit for tat. Pay them like private-sector professionals, but demand private-sector accountability.

Thats the kind of solution I like. It would encourage very talented people to go into the teaching field. It would give teachers the resources they need. But it would give school districts leverage to expect a lot more in return, and separate the wheat from the chaff.

You won't see dramatic improvement until you break the hold that "educators" have on "education". The philosophies (and subsequent teaching strategies and techniques) that dominate the university curicullum are abject failures. Even talented individuals can't rise above that completely, especially if school districts keep using them to evaluate performance.

There is a reason that the US students are consistently last in performance when compared with those from other industrialized countries. And it isn't all teachers' "talent".

Bourgeois_Rage Wrote:Mach, cool your jets. Do you have the stats for BCS?

I think what he's trying to say is that when Davis-Bessie was built, and those nuclear physicists and engineers put their kids in the local schools...that the ONLY factor toward the alleged improvement was dollars to the district.

There are some great people on the Lima News forum discussing Ohio education. Come join us if you really interested.