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Is the GOP headed towards major tax reform?
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #41
 
flyingswoosh Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:Who is going to pick up their tab?

Those of you who want to pay higher taxes so the Cheneys can have save an extra $114,819 each year, raise your hands. :monty:
the tab would be picked up, when they close all of the loopholes, like real estate deductions, charity deductions, etc.
You lost me.

If closing loopholes is so important, why not just... um... close them?

And is the homeowners deduction really a "loophole?"
08-03-2004 08:42 PM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #42
 
RebelKev Wrote:Also, this:

Quote:Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. I believe they should be shared according to people's ability to pay. That's all.


is basically a tenet of Communism. I gave up the Communist Manifesto long ago.
Are you saying Oliver Wendell Holmes was a Communist?
08-03-2004 08:43 PM
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flyingswoosh Offline
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Post: #43
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:Who is going to pick up their tab?

Those of you who want to pay higher taxes so the Cheneys can have save an extra $114,819 each year, raise your hands. :monty:
the tab would be picked up, when they close all of the loopholes, like real estate deductions, charity deductions, etc.
You lost me.

If closing loopholes is so important, why not just... um... close them?

And is the homeowners deduction really a "loophole?"
because when you're taxing people up to 35%, you can't take away their real estate deductions. If you do, you'll ruin the real estate market. And if you take away charity deductions, while still charging people 35% in taxes, then you'll destroy charitable foundations.

I think you can call, writing off real estate expenses as a lopphole.
08-03-2004 09:09 PM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #44
 
flyingswoosh Wrote:because when you're taxing people up to 35%, you can't take away their real estate deductions. If you do, you'll ruin the real estate market. And if you take away charity deductions, while still charging people 35% in taxes, then you'll destroy charitable foundations.

I think you can call, writing off real estate expenses as a lopphole.
Most of the people who benefit from real estate deductions don't make anywhere near enough money to have a dollar taxed at 35 percent.

The fact is, this would shift the burden away from people like Dick Cheney and onto the middle class.

That isn't right.
08-03-2004 09:59 PM
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The Knight Time Offline
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Post: #45
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:because when you're taxing people up to 35%, you can't take away their real estate deductions.  If you do, you'll ruin the real estate market.  And if you take away charity deductions, while still charging people 35% in taxes, then you'll destroy charitable foundations.

I think you can call, writing off real estate expenses as a lopphole.
Most of the people who benefit from real estate deductions don't make anywhere near enough money to have a dollar taxed at 35 percent.

The fact is, this would shift the burden away from people like Dick Cheney and onto the middle class.

That isn't right.
Or like Mrs. Ketchup, who currently has billions of dollars.
08-03-2004 10:05 PM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #46
 
The Knight Time Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:
flyingswoosh Wrote:because when you're taxing people up to 35%, you can't take away their real estate deductions.  If you do, you'll ruin the real estate market.  And if you take away charity deductions, while still charging people 35% in taxes, then you'll destroy charitable foundations.

I think you can call, writing off real estate expenses as a lopphole.
Most of the people who benefit from real estate deductions don't make anywhere near enough money to have a dollar taxed at 35 percent.

The fact is, this would shift the burden away from people like Dick Cheney and onto the middle class.

That isn't right.
Or like Mrs. Ketchup, who currently has billions of dollars.
And that wouldn't be right either.
08-03-2004 10:11 PM
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Post: #47
 
This is what I hear:

"They are the wealthy; we should punish them and make them pay an unfair share of the burden for the government because they have more"


......don't even add the fact that they took the chances, had the schooling, made themselves more marketable, and/or worked the long hours at building something. ....that CREATED jobs. Never in my life have I received a job from a bum.

You want to talk about fair? Your version is unfair. I don't care HOW much they have. Only your party/philosophy gets votes due to taking from others.


Socialism. There you have it folks.
08-03-2004 10:39 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #48
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:Also, while poor families spend every dollar they earn almost as soon as they get it, it is doubtful the Cheneys have such pressing needs. They have the flexibility to sock away money in savings and to invest, meaning they would pay even less under a sales tax.
One more reason I don't favor the sales tax, but you seem to think that investment is bad for the economy and taxes.

Quite the opposite, investing is what enables businesses to grow, hire more people at middle-class wages, and pay taxes (both corporate and individual).

You can't look at just a piece of this picture and pretend to understand the whole thing. If you don't understand how investment affects the economy, then you don't understand economics...and probably shouldn't be posting.
08-04-2004 07:41 AM
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jjburtzel Offline
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Post: #49
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:10% on your first $14,000 ($1,400)
15% on the next $42,800 ($6,240)
25% on the next $55,849 ($13,962.25)
28% on the next $60,049 ($16,813.72)
Total bill: $38,415.97
OK...I thought something smelled wrong about that...thanks for clearing that up.

My question has always been why someone who earns more should pay a greater percentage of their earnings in taxes. The answer always is...'because they can'. That's not good enough. Again, I do not get any extra-government benefit from moving up into a new bracket. All I get is a higher percentage of earnings removed.
08-04-2004 08:33 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #50
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:Now do the math.

The Cheneys paid $253,067 on taxable income of $813,226.

Under a 17 percent sales tax, the most they could possibly pay would be $138,248.*
You know I find your class warfare posts and jealousy of those who have made successes of their lives pretty funny.

And I have yet to see a single logical argument to the statement that a flat tax would shift the tax burden to the middle class given that their paying the same % that anyone else would be.

The fact is you want to punish success in the name of the "common good". That's a communist/socialist mindset and it flies in the face of freedom and liberty that this country was founded on.
08-04-2004 09:36 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #51
 
I certainly disagree w/ SF's class warfare posts, his defense of UAW's failed positions and his ex warranto beliefs. But, I think there is something to consider about a progressive tax. I don't know if anyone will change their minds, but consider it from a different perspective.

Let's say the gov't believes *everyone* should be taxed at 28% (or 31 or whatever). But, the gov't also believes that you, the individual taxpayer, has basic needs that can't be escaped. Housing, food, clothes, transportation. Those all have some bottom line that just can't be ignored.

So, the gov't gives you a break on that 31% tax, based on income.

10% on your first $14,000- REALLY means a 18% break
15% on the next $42,800- Really means a 13% break

etc.

Of course the gov't already does essentially the same thing w/ deductions and exemptions. That's not the debate.

Anyway, perhaps considering it from this angle makes the notion less distasteful.
08-04-2004 10:17 AM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #52
 
You don't have the vision to see beyond the tip of your own nose.

The fact is social stability is a highly desirable state of affairs. It gives people the confidence to project their hopes into the future and act accordingly. And that's good for everyone, regardless of class. We already have the greatest free market society in the world, with a huge class of wealthy citizens that has benefited incredibly over the last generation. But each step that the selfish rich (and that's certainly not all wealthy people) and their hired spin-meisters push us towards a purely unmodified marketplace -- with all its wild swings and unpredicatable currents -- is a step towards a less secure and more perilous society.

I'm all for tax reform. The system is a mess. I'm all for a more effective and efficient government. But I'm not willing to be blindly swallowed up by ideology that as a practical matter will make the overall quality of life for people (in particular, the middle and lower classes) in this country worse, not better. To be blunt, that's the same mistake I think many people make in backing Bush as president -- the like his ideological talk so much, they are willing to excuse the long litany of mistakes he's made as a practical matter of governing.
08-04-2004 10:30 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #53
 
Socko Wiethe Wrote:I'm all for tax reform. The system is a mess. I'm all for a more effective and efficient government. But I'm not willing to be blindly swallowed up by ideology that as a practical matter will make the overall quality of life for people (in particular, the middle and lower classes) in this country worse, not better. To be blunt, that's the same mistake I think many people make in backing Bush as president -- the like his ideological talk so much, they are willing to excuse the long litany of mistakes he's made as a practical matter of governing.
1. Explain how the middle and lower classes suffer because of a flat tax.

2. Explain how ideology is NOT playing a role in your decision to not vote for Bush. To expound it, explain what ideological viewpoints you and Bush share, if any, and in turn why those don't matter given the mistakes, in your opinion, he's made.
08-04-2004 11:02 AM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #54
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
Socko Wiethe Wrote:I'm all for tax reform. The system is a mess. I'm all for a more effective and efficient government. But I'm not willing to be blindly swallowed up by ideology that as a practical matter will make the overall quality of life for people (in particular, the middle and lower classes) in this country worse, not better. To be blunt, that's the same mistake I think many people make in backing Bush as president -- the like his ideological talk so much, they are willing to excuse the long litany of mistakes he's made as a practical matter of governing.
1. Explain how the middle and lower classes suffer because of a flat tax.

2. Explain how ideology is NOT playing a role in your decision to not vote for Bush. To expound it, explain what ideological viewpoints you and Bush share, if any, and in turn why those don't matter given the mistakes, in your opinion, he's made.
1. I'm not claiming to be a tax expert. I've seen where others have called the flat tax and the VAT regressive, but I haven't read enough to feel confident in sharing those claims. Generally, though, I think everyone ought to pay their fare share. To truly get to that point, we probably ought to trash the current system that has been bastardized by decades of adjustments and political abuse, and start from scratch. Politically, though, that would be impossible to do.

2. Bush the candidate ran as a moderate, with that same "compassionate conservative" crap he's trying to roll back out there and get people to buy into again now. He promised to be a uniter, not a divider. He promised fiscal responsibility. He promised a tax cut that would be fair and most positively impact lower-income Americans. He promised education reform (I guess we missed the fine print where he never promised he would find a way to pay for it). He ran claiming to be environmentally responsible. He said he would make government more accountable (should have noticed that asterisk that added, "Executive branch exempted.") He said he would restore honor and dignity to the White House. I would support any of these statements from a candidate. In my opinion, however, he's fallen far short on each count.

No one in 2000 saw 9/11 coming or could have guessed how central that would turn out to be in his term. I thought he was strong and setting the right tone (even if the "evil-doers" language was a little goofy) for a number of weeks after that event. But when the obvious things that had to be done were exhausted from the list and he had to set policy on how we would proceed, he began making poor choices. When it became clear that these were bad choices, he would never admit to the obvious.

The biggest problem, in a word, is trust. I don't trust this president. In fact, I fear him. He's got no sense for managing the budget. With another four years to put in place his fiscal decisions, I shudder to think about the legacy that will be left for my kids. As someone once proposed, the easiest way to defeat America wouldn't be militarily, it would merely be to wreck the financial system. If a major financial crisis erupts, do you think Bush is going to be listening to those who are trying to protect average Americans, or his corporate boosters who are trying to keep from getting their fortunes blown out of the water?

On foreign policy, are we supposed to trust a man who made such incredibly shallow decisions on launching a war of choice against Iraq to now manage true potential nuclear crises with North Korea or Iran? What if Pakistan's leadership falls, or if Iraq starts to deteroriate?

These are not ideological differences. I question, because of the man's white-knuckle death grip on his ideology above all else, his competence to govern. Amazingly, prominent conservatives like Bill Kristol are now reaching the same conclusions. Is it any wonder why Bush and Karl Rove are so eager to inject gay marriage, abortion and a host of other sideshow issues into the campaign in hopes of deflecting attention from the real question, the Bush record?
08-04-2004 05:05 PM
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Post: #55
 
Quote:1. I'm not claiming to be a tax expert. I've seen where others have called the flat tax and the VAT regressive, but I haven't read enough to feel confident in sharing those claims.

Then it's reckless for you to make such a charge about a subject you willingly admit you know next to nothing about.

Quote:2. Bush the candidate ran as a moderate, with that same "compassionate conservative" crap he's trying to roll back out there and get people to buy into again now. He promised to be a uniter, not a divider. He promised fiscal responsibility. He promised a tax cut that would be fair and most positively impact lower-income Americans. He promised education reform (I guess we missed the fine print where he never promised he would find a way to pay for it). He ran claiming to be environmentally responsible. He said he would make government more accountable (should have noticed that asterisk that added, "Executive branch exempted.") He said he would restore honor and dignity to the White House. I would support any of these statements from a candidate. In my opinion, however, he's fallen far short on each count.

Bush did not run as a moderate. He ran as a conservative and in turn has gone moderate in his spending practices on social programs.

He did promise a fair tax cut, and he always stated that it would be ACROSS THE BOARD. He delivered on that, but I guess you missed it.

You say you would support those statements from a candidate, yet I'll bet a million dollars you didn't vote for Bush and you didn't for IDEOLOGICAL reasons.

As for the rest of your tripe it's been stated ad naseum by you and others and it's all based on your opinion.

The fact is you're a liberal democrat that didn't, and never would have, voted for Bush. You answered my question about ideology by not answering it, there is NO ideological viewpoint that you line up with Bush on. The statements you cited are not ideology.

The fact is Socko your ideology drives you in every way. And there was no way, short of Bush signing legislation that gauged the rich in taxes or handed our national security over to the UN, that you would have voted for him. You are just as guilty of being driven by ideology as you accuse others of being.

Your hypocrisy is evident.
08-04-2004 05:22 PM
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Bob Saccomano Offline
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Post: #56
 
I think you should pay more attention to William Kristol. He's solidly in Bush's corner.

<a href='http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/312rpsfo.asp' target='_blank'>Kristol's latest column</a>

And FYI, one of the Administration's biggest critics on fiscal policy has been (drum roll pleas) Rush Limbaugh.

That's the difference between Republicans and Democrats. We can criticize some of the things President Bush does and still show our unwavering support of his Presidency.

Dems, on the other hand, have to pretend to be people they're not (hawkish on defense? bullish on middle tax cuts? 95% of the convention delegates must've spewn chunks after that sham), support a candidate they really don't like, and employ character assassins in the media and hollywood to manufacture a legitimate campaign.

What, pray tell, will the poor libs do when they lose this election, after the energy and hatred they've directed towards the President? Hopefully join Alec Baldwin in a move to Europe.

Yeah, right.
08-04-2004 05:22 PM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #57
 
BearcatCarl Wrote:I think you should pay more attention to William Kristol.&nbsp; He's solidly in Bush's corner.

<a href='http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/312rpsfo.asp' target='_blank'>Kristol's latest column</a>

And FYI, one of the Administration's biggest critics on fiscal policy has been (drum roll pleas) Rush Limbaugh.

That's the difference between Republicans and Democrats.&nbsp; We can criticize some of the things President Bush does and still show our unwavering support of his Presidency.

Dems, on the other hand, have to pretend to be people they're not (hawkish on defense?&nbsp; bullish on middle tax cuts?&nbsp; 95% of the convention delegates must've spewn chunks after that sham), support a candidate they really don't like, and employ character assassins in the media and hollywood to manufacture a legitimate campaign.

What, pray tell, will the poor libs do when they lose this election, after the energy and hatred they've directed towards the President?&nbsp; Hopefully join Alec Baldwin in a move to Europe.

Yeah, right.
You know, Carl, in all honesty and not to flame, I swear I hold those exact same sentiments about the Republicans.

As for Niner's comments, all I can tell you is that I didn't make up my mind who to vote for in 2000 until the week before the election. Bush ran a good campaign, and I liked his father. But Bush's behavior once in office, acting like he had some mandate from the electorate to drastically change the course of the country, is in itself an act of dishonesty.

Call my thinking tripe if you like, but your own inability to recognize how others can legitimately hold these views -- honorable people of intellect, with a strong sense of patriotism -- even if you disagree with these conclusions shows what a slave you are yourself of ideology.
08-04-2004 08:16 PM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #58
 
On Cheney's tax deduction you calculated 17% on his income. It would not be an income tax, it would be a sales tax. What I really like about Reb's point is we start taxing everybody. Imagine how much money is in the underground economy? AND YOU FORGET WE CAN exempt people who live in poverty. This really is a no brainer!!!!!!
08-04-2004 09:18 PM
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Post: #59
 
DrTorch Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:Also, while poor families spend every dollar they earn almost as soon as they get it, it is doubtful the Cheneys have such pressing needs. They have the flexibility to sock away money in savings and to invest, meaning they would pay even less under a sales tax.
One more reason I don't favor the sales tax, but you seem to think that investment is bad for the economy and taxes.
Nope. Never said that. I was simply explaining one reason the wealthy would pay a lower percentage of their income toward a national sales tax than the poor.

At the core of my argument is a value judgment.

I value ensuring Americans are taxed fairly, according to their ability to pay. I value ensuring America's struggling middle class isn't socked with a huge tax increase.

To me, any additional investment that would be encouraged through the replacement of our progressive income tax with a flat sales tax wouldn't be worth the cost.

Quote:You can't look at just a piece of this picture and pretend to understand the whole thing.&nbsp; If you don't understand how investment affects the economy, then you don't understand economics...and probably shouldn't be posting.

Spare me the lecture, Torch.
08-04-2004 11:38 PM
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Schadenfreude Online
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Post: #60
 
Dogger Wrote:On Cheney's tax deduction you calculated 17% on his income.  It would not be an income tax, it would be a sales tax.
Right.

The Cheneys can only spend what they bring in.

Hence, I laid out $138,248 as a rough ceiling. That's 17 percent of their taxable income in 2003.

Chances are, that figure is high. Anything spent on lawyers and accountants and certain other services might not be taxed.

Quote:What I really like about Reb's point is we start taxing everybody. Imagine how much money is in the underground economy?

There is some validity to that point. The drug dealer suddenly having to pay higher taxes on his Chrysler 300 is a powerful image.

But it isn't as if crackheads are going to start paying an extra 17 percent for rocks.

Quote:AND YOU FORGET WE CAN exempt people who live in poverty.

I did not forget. People in poverty pay very, very little in federal income tax now, but we could exempt them. Sure.

It sounds complicated. What would poor people do? Wave card at the local Wal-Mart, proclaiming "I'm poor?" Save all their receipts and turn them into the federal government every year?

(Talk about shifting the burden! All the poor people now filing 1040 EZs would be in for an eye opener!)

But, yeah, you could exempt people on the bottom.

It's the people between those at the bottom and the Cheney family who would get torched if the new tax system is revenue neutral.

And if it isn't revenue neutral... then our nation needs to have a healthy discussion about what services we are going to agree to do without in order to give people like the Cheneys a huge tax cut.
08-04-2004 11:48 PM
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