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Is the GOP headed towards major tax reform?
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Schadenfreude Offline
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Post: #61
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:You know I find your class warfare posts and jealousy of those who have made successes of their lives pretty funny.
Where do you see jealousy?

As I said (quoting Oliver Wendell Holmes), taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.

Taxes pay for our national defense. Taxes pay for the interstate highways that promote commerce. Taxes pay for health care for poor people, helping make them more productive. Taxes help pay for education, which protects our democratic way of life.

Taxes have helped build America and keep her strong.

And it is this America that has been especially good the Cheneys.

I see no reason why they Cheneys can't afford to give a little more back and keep America strong.

Quote:And I have yet to see a single logical argument to the statement that a flat tax would shift the tax burden to the middle class given that their paying the same % that anyone else would be.

Because, under the progressive tax system we've had in America for nearly a century, middle class families have never paid as great a percentage of their income to the federal government as do the wealthy.

Under a flat tax, most of that burden would be shifted away from the wealthy and onto middle class families.

Quote:The fact is you want to punish success in the name of the "common good".  That's a communist/socialist mindset and it flies in the face of freedom and liberty that this country was founded on.

Considering we've had a progressive income tax in America for nearly a century, I'd gently suggest you are mistaken.

I'm not the radical here. I simple want to protect what I believe to be a vital American idea: progressive taxation, and the notion that America's tax burden should be distributed according to the ability to pay.

It is the flat taxers that want to turn a century of history on its head.

(More than that, really. Abraham Lincoln instituted the first American income tax).
08-05-2004 12:19 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #62
 
Socko Wiethe Wrote:[
Quote:As for Niner's comments, all I can tell you is that I didn't make up my mind who to vote for in 2000 until the week before the election. Bush ran a good campaign, and I liked his father.

You didn't refute my point Socko, you didn't vote for Bush, despite your statements that you liked the statements he made. I'm willing to bet a million dollars your reasons for not voting for him were ideological, reasons you now say others of us shouldn't even regard.

Quote:But Bush's behavior once in office, acting like he had some mandate from the electorate to drastically change the course of the country, is in itself an act of dishonesty.

This is a completely illogical argument. Bush was elected president, that's all the mandate he needed. And to suggest the leader of a nation should change his views based on a popular vote count shows you don't value someone who sticks by what they believe, you prefer someone who will shift with the tides. Obviously, Kerry's your man.

Quote:Call my thinking tripe if you like,

I didn't call your thinking tripe, I called your statements tripe. Your thinking I find illogical and in many respects it flies in the face of the facts. Your thinking is driven by a personal detest for our president, not an objective look at the situations. Pefect example is how you describe how Bush ran his campaign. He ran his campaign in 2000 NOTHING like the way you suggested. His tax cut recommendation was always across the board, yet you called it fair then. Now that it's been implemented you call it for the rich, towing the IDEOLOIGICAL party line.

Quote:but your own inability to recognize how others can legitimately hold these views -- honorable people of intellect, with a strong sense of patriotism -- even if you disagree with these conclusions shows what a slave you are yourself of ideology.

Ah here we go, a lib crying that I'm saying they are unpatriotic. Nice try but that never came out of my mouth.

I repect people who make decisions based on facts and reason. Statements like this,

Quote:The biggest problem, in a word, is trust. I don't trust this president. In fact, I fear him. He's got no sense for managing the budget. With another four years to put in place his fiscal decisions, I shudder to think about the legacy that will be left for my kids.

this
Quote:If a major financial crisis erupts, do you think Bush is going to be listening to those who are trying to protect average Americans, or his corporate boosters who are trying to keep from getting their fortunes blown out of the water?

and this
Quote:On foreign policy, are we supposed to trust a man who made such incredibly shallow decisions on launching a war of choice against Iraq

are not intellectual arguments. They are hyperbole and emotional tripe.

I am not blinded by my ideology. If I were I wouldn't be voting for Bush. Bush has increased social spending irresponsibly, he's caved on judicial nominations and he's allowed democrats to put the senate in gridlock and not fought back.

You sit here and lecture about turning a blind eye to Bush's mistakes yet I talk about them and voice my opinion. You embrace Kerry's flip flops, his mistakes and LEGITAMATE arguments against his being president. You attack ideas that you willingly admit you know next to nothing about and yet act as though you are some kind of authority on the subject.

People of intellect don't embrace such tactics. People who are blinded my emotion and hatred do.

You are consumed in hatred and ideology, and I'm merely pointing out the hypocricy of you trying to dress down others and accuse them of the same thing.

Give me an intellectual argument and I'll respect it. I don't respect " I fear for my children." Knee jerk republicans made the same charge when Clinton was president, and I found them as dumb then for making it as I do you now for doing the same thing.
08-05-2004 07:45 AM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #63
 
Quote:Where do you see jealousy?

Throughout your posts.

Quote:As I said (quoting Oliver Wendell Holmes), taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society.

Taxes pay for our national defense. Taxes pay for the interstate highways that promote commerce. Taxes pay for health care for poor people, helping make them more productive. Taxes help pay for education, which protects our democratic way of life.

Taxes have helped build America and keep her strong.

Yes they have, I disagree with none of that. However you carry it further and say that people who make more money should be gauged and punished for doing so.

Quote:And it is this America that has been especially good the Cheneys.

I see no reason why they Cheneys can't afford to give a little more back and keep America strong.

He does give more back than you. He gives more back than 90% of Americans. Under a flat tax, he would still be giving back more than most Americans. The problem is you think it's up to YOU to determine what his "fair share" is. What qualifies YOU, or anyone else, to determine what SOMEONE ELSE can afford to give back? Nothing.

Quote:Because, under the progressive tax system we've had in America for nearly a century, middle class families have never paid as great a percentage of their income to the federal government as do the wealthy.

Under a flat tax, most of that burden would be shifted away from the wealthy and onto middle class families.

Congratulations, you still didn't provide a logical argument.

The middle class today pay between 25 and 28% of their income in taxes. Yet you're trying to make the argument that under a 17-19% flat tax they'd be paying more. Explain how. I've been asking this for two days now and you have yet to tell me how. And just a clue, "They just would be" isn't a logical argument, and to date that's all you've offered.

Quote:Considering we've had a progressive income tax in America for nearly a century, I'd gently suggest you are mistaken.

How? Explain to me how the mindset that government can take from you that which they think is "your fair share" isn't a communist/socialist mentality? Explain how the idea that government should be able to tax people into equality. That is what you are advocating, and it reeks of communist manifesto.

Quote:It is the flat taxers that want to turn a century of history on its head.

I'm willing to do that to make a decision that is FAIR and helps this country. You, like every other lib in this country, prefer to keep the status quo and even raise the tax burden on those in this country who are successful in accordance with some perverted idea as to what constitutes fair.
08-05-2004 07:58 AM
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Dogger Offline
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Post: #64
 
Schad,

When I talk about the underground economy I'm not just talking about drug dealers. A buddy of mine bartended in Fl. He would by a brand new SUV every two years with cash. He had a home on the intercoastal that was paid for. Yet, his tax returns showed him just above the poverty level. They are many jobs that are paid under the table. I know people who rent out trailers in vacationland with cash and they never report it. There's no way of knowing how much income is out there that's not being taxed but it would be in the billions.

BTW you could easily adjust your tax revenue by adjusting the rate. Under years that we had in the late 90's we could lower the rate. Under a Bush economy we could always adjust it higher. I really think this is an idea we should look at.
08-05-2004 08:02 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #65
 
Socko Wiethe Wrote:2. Bush the candidate ran as a moderate, with that same "compassionate conservative" crap he's trying to roll back out there and get people to buy into again now. He promised to be a uniter, not a divider. He promised fiscal responsibility. He promised a tax cut that would be fair and most positively impact lower-income Americans. He promised education reform (I guess we missed the fine print where he never promised he would find a way to pay for it). He ran claiming to be environmentally responsible. He said he would make government more accountable (should have noticed that asterisk that added, "Executive branch exempted.") He said he would restore honor and dignity to the White House. I would support any of these statements from a candidate. In my opinion, however, he's fallen far short on each count.

No one in 2000 saw 9/11 coming or could have guessed how central that would turn out to be in his term. I thought he was strong and setting the right tone (even if the "evil-doers" language was a little goofy) for a number of weeks after that event. But when the obvious things that had to be done were exhausted from the list and he had to set policy on how we would proceed, he began making poor choices. When it became clear that these were bad choices, he would never admit to the obvious.

The biggest problem, in a word, is trust. I don't trust this president. In fact, I fear him. He's got no sense for managing the budget. With another four years to put in place his fiscal decisions, I shudder to think about the legacy that will be left for my kids. As someone once proposed, the easiest way to defeat America wouldn't be militarily, it would merely be to wreck the financial system. If a major financial crisis erupts, do you think Bush is going to be listening to those who are trying to protect average Americans, or his corporate boosters who are trying to keep from getting their fortunes blown out of the water?

On foreign policy, are we supposed to trust a man who made such incredibly shallow decisions on launching a war of choice against Iraq to now manage true potential nuclear crises with North Korea or Iran? What if Pakistan's leadership falls, or if Iraq starts to deteroriate?
I think your recollection of history is a bit fuzzy:

Bush was doing a fantastic job of uniting things (think No Child Left Behind) despite a hostile introduction due to the Florida fiasco. Remember, Gore filed suit first re: the election. Not that I blame him, but keep that in mind. Next, despite Moore's lies to the contrary, Bush won all the re-counts. Yet, this event is still being played as some sort of scam or even a coup d'etat. So who's being divisive?

Bush also did some incredible politicking to get the START(I think it was that one) treaty undone. More than one political opponent was displeased at how well this "chimp" operated the system.

Much of this came undone at 9/11. That was a divisive event. Plenty of people blamed Bush immediately, and wrongly. Many were the same folks who were blaming Bush for the economic downturn in Summer of 2000. That was PRE-ELECTION. So the "divisive" element was just waiting to happen. Bush didn't promote it; his opponents just wanted an excuse.

Have you listened to Tommy Franks lately (he has a new book)? I heard him on NPR, and he was emphatic that he would have favored the war w/ Iraq, and wasn't concerned about the "lack" of international support. He knows it is easier to manage non-coallition troops. This was critical given the speed at which the attack required. It also, in all probability, prevented Hussein from sabotaging his own oil and water infrastructures. A blessing for the Iraqis and the environment.

We also know that many of Iraq's weapons were from France and Russia, who clearly violated treaties in selling these arms to Hussein. Not exactly the upstanding folks we want to be allied with.

Moreover you bring up N. Korea... It was Rumsfeld and Bush who knew about N. Korea! Clinton's policies helped spur the event. And how are you criticizing their handling of it?! No event has occurred...despite a heated situation.

Are you really interested in facts, or are you just blowing smoke like other ABB folks? 05-nono

Finally, you offer no other answers. What would Gore have done differently? What evidence is there that Kerry could do better? He's milquetoast. A lapdog who would try to make peace w/ so-called allies, by giving concessions.

Bush's policies can come under criticism. I agree some are lacking. But, he inherited events that few others have dealt with (recession, terrorist attacks, war, homeland security). And frankly, the country is better off than 4 years ago.
08-05-2004 08:11 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #66
 
Schadenfreude Wrote:
DrTorch Wrote:
Schadenfreude Wrote:Also, while poor families spend every dollar they earn almost as soon as they get it, it is doubtful the Cheneys have such pressing needs. They have the flexibility to sock away money in savings and to invest, meaning they would pay even less under a sales tax.
One more reason I don't favor the sales tax, but you seem to think that investment is bad for the economy and taxes.
Nope. Never said that. I was simply explaining one reason the wealthy would pay a lower percentage of their income toward a national sales tax than the poor.

At the core of my argument is a value judgment.

I value ensuring Americans are taxed fairly, according to their ability to pay. I value ensuring America's struggling middle class isn't socked with a huge tax increase.

To me, any additional investment that would be encouraged through the replacement of our progressive income tax with a flat sales tax wouldn't be worth the cost.

Ok, but you still have to offer that explanation. It answers some of Dogger's questions, and sheds some light on the differences between a flat rate income tax and a sales tax.

At this point it's also worth considering a quantitative model...since the details are becoming the issue.

Quote:Spare me the lecture, Torch.

Fine, then deal with the subject. There is merit in my comments about dealing w/ only part of a complex issue.
08-05-2004 09:26 AM
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Socko Wiethe Offline
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Post: #67
 
Ninerfan1 Wrote:
Socko Wiethe Wrote:[
Quote:As for Niner's comments, all I can tell you is that I didn't make up my mind who to vote for in 2000 until the week before the election. Bush ran a good campaign, and I liked his father.

You didn't refute my point Socko, you didn't vote for Bush, despite your statements that you liked the statements he made. I'm willing to bet a million dollars your reasons for not voting for him were ideological, reasons you now say others of us shouldn't even regard.

Quote:But Bush's behavior once in office, acting like he had some mandate from the electorate to drastically change the course of the country, is in itself an act of dishonesty.

This is a completely illogical argument. Bush was elected president, that's all the mandate he needed. And to suggest the leader of a nation should change his views based on a popular vote count shows you don't value someone who sticks by what they believe, you prefer someone who will shift with the tides. Obviously, Kerry's your man.

Quote:Call my thinking tripe if you like,

I didn't call your thinking tripe, I called your statements tripe. Your thinking I find illogical and in many respects it flies in the face of the facts. Your thinking is driven by a personal detest for our president, not an objective look at the situations. Pefect example is how you describe how Bush ran his campaign. He ran his campaign in 2000 NOTHING like the way you suggested. His tax cut recommendation was always across the board, yet you called it fair then. Now that it's been implemented you call it for the rich, towing the IDEOLOIGICAL party line.

Quote:but your own inability to recognize how others can legitimately hold these views -- honorable people of intellect, with a strong sense of patriotism -- even if you disagree with these conclusions shows what a slave you are yourself of ideology.

Ah here we go, a lib crying that I'm saying they are unpatriotic. Nice try but that never came out of my mouth.

I repect people who make decisions based on facts and reason. Statements like this,

Quote:The biggest problem, in a word, is trust. I don't trust this president. In fact, I fear him. He's got no sense for managing the budget. With another four years to put in place his fiscal decisions, I shudder to think about the legacy that will be left for my kids.

this
Quote:If a major financial crisis erupts, do you think Bush is going to be listening to those who are trying to protect average Americans, or his corporate boosters who are trying to keep from getting their fortunes blown out of the water?

and this
Quote:On foreign policy, are we supposed to trust a man who made such incredibly shallow decisions on launching a war of choice against Iraq

are not intellectual arguments. They are hyperbole and emotional tripe.

I am not blinded by my ideology. If I were I wouldn't be voting for Bush. Bush has increased social spending irresponsibly, he's caved on judicial nominations and he's allowed democrats to put the senate in gridlock and not fought back.

You sit here and lecture about turning a blind eye to Bush's mistakes yet I talk about them and voice my opinion. You embrace Kerry's flip flops, his mistakes and LEGITAMATE arguments against his being president. You attack ideas that you willingly admit you know next to nothing about and yet act as though you are some kind of authority on the subject.

People of intellect don't embrace such tactics. People who are blinded my emotion and hatred do.

You are consumed in hatred and ideology, and I'm merely pointing out the hypocricy of you trying to dress down others and accuse them of the same thing.

Give me an intellectual argument and I'll respect it. I don't respect " I fear for my children." Knee jerk republicans made the same charge when Clinton was president, and I found them as dumb then for making it as I do you now for doing the same thing.
I'll take your million dollars, Niner, (I should have known you had a million to give away with your strong status as part of Bush's base). I finally decided to vote for Gore on a pragmatic basis -- one of his last appeals convinced me that Bush could not be trusted to support what he was saying he would do about environmental issues. (And he was right.)

Otherwise, there wasn't much difference between the candidates. They all play to the center at the end of the campaign and put their ideologies in their back pockets and hope no one notices. I would never vote for a candidate strictly on an ideological basis. That's not how I choose to exercise my vote. I look at their positions and try to square that with what I think needs to be done.

Regarding the mandate, the tradition always has been that a president needs to take into account the circumstances in which he was elected. Bush took over an evenly divided country. That would suggest moderation and trying to unite our people. But while he ran as a moderate, but quickly moved to a radical agenda. While you may support much of this agenda, this is one of the main reasons why he is hated as much as he is by those who don't support him. On the tax cut business, he did say during his campaign that the vast majority of his cuts would go to those at the bottom of the spectrum. He happened to say this in one of our poorest states and a place where his campaign was in trouble, South Carolina. Coincidence? The first tax cut could possibly be justified as within the bounds of his campaign pledges. The 2003 cut, and the total lack of regard for what it would do to the federal deficit (not to mention it occuring while we needed to pay for a war), can only be called radical.

If, as you suggest, you respect decisions made on fact and reason, then I'd suggest you're being a Bush supporter puts you in a most conflicted position. Despite how his apologists portray him, it's been widely documented by Woodward and others that he's not much for details. He goes with his gut and maybe he even thinks he's an instrument of God's will, and then he hopes later the facts can be squared to support his choices. That's why this is such a messy administration, and that's why the man avoids as often as possible any situation where he might be held accountable. Unfortunately, the election season is the mother lode of accountability.

I admitted I didn't know enough about alternative tax plans to weigh in because I believe in being honest, and you of course want to rip me for it. That wasn't the end of this debate that I wanted to jump in on in the first place. (You had made an aside about the "common good" that I felt deserved a reply.)

I do fear for my children and the country if Bush is re-elected. Kerry is not perfect, but he's easily the better qualified of the two candidates. Now I could go on at length about the reasons why Bush is scary, and support that with lots of factoids dug up across the Internet (complete with footnotes, if you like), and then you could go into your favorite bullying role and tell me why I'm an irrational, hate-driven left-wing loony, and what good would come from the whole exercise? There are legions of political operatives from both sides out there doing that leg work.

So let's save a little bandwith and stay in summary mode. All I'm suggesting is that there are reasonable people out here with legitimate concerns about the actions, motivations and future plans of this administration. If you can't understand that without slipping into your pit-bull persona, then that's your problem to deal with.
08-05-2004 12:09 PM
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Ninerfan1 Offline
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Post: #68
 
Quote:I'll take your million dollars, Niner, (I should have known you had a million to give away with your strong status as part of Bush's base). I finally decided to vote for Gore on a pragmatic basis -- one of his last appeals convinced me that Bush could not be trusted to support what he was saying he would do about environmental issues. (And he was right.)

Sure you did. :rolleyes:

FYI I am decidely middle class. As far as Bush's base all being rich, 45% of this country isn't rich.

Quote:Otherwise, there wasn't much difference between the candidates. They all play to the center at the end of the campaign and put their ideologies in their back pockets and hope no one notices.

Oh really?

One was pro-life, the other wasn't.
One would appoint strict contructionists to the supreme court, the other would appoint activists
One advocated ACROSS THE BOARD tax cuts, the other just for the middle class
One advoacted privatizing social security, the other didn't.

I could go on but it would do no good. You clearly have a really bad memory about the 2000 campaign or you're hoping I do.

Quote:Regarding the mandate, the tradition always has been that a president needs to take into account the circumstances in which he was elected.

How you figure? Examples?

Quote:But while he ran as a moderate, but quickly moved to a radical agenda.

Examples? Bush campaigned on across the board tax cuts, and he delivered. He campaigned on education and gave us NCLB with the biggest increase in education spending in history. I want some examples.

Quote:On the tax cut business, he did say during his campaign that the vast majority of his cuts would go to those at the bottom of the spectrum. He happened to say this in one of our poorest states and a place where his campaign was in trouble, South Carolina. Coincidence? The first tax cut could possibly be justified

Proof? He said his tax cuts would benefit THOSE WHO PAY TAXES, and it did. You seem to be the only person in America that thought that mean raising taxes on the rich and cutting them only for the lower tax brackets.

Quote:I admitted I didn't know enough about alternative tax plans to weigh in because I believe in being honest, and you of course want to rip me for it.

But it didn't stop you from stating that the lower and middle class would suffer under a flat tax now did it?

Quote:Now I could go on at length about the reasons why Bush is scary, and support that with lots of factoids dug up across the Internet (complete with footnotes, if you like), and then you could go into your favorite bullying role and tell me why I'm an irrational, hate-driven left-wing loony, and what good would come from the whole exercise?

You are hate driven, your posts prove that. And you rarely, if ever, bring specific facts to the table. You speak in generalities, on purpose, and hope no one notices. But you're right, there would be no good come from it because despite any proof I offer to the contrary to your positions you will, as you continually do, ignore them.

Quote:All I'm suggesting is that there are reasonable people out here with legitimate concerns about the actions, motivations and future plans of this administration. If you can't understand that without slipping into your pit-bull persona, then that's your problem to deal with.

I understand it completely. However you have yet to show you're one of them. In fact you make it clear you're just the opposite.

have a nice day.
08-05-2004 12:46 PM
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Trooper Offline
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Post: #69
 
<a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=544&e=2&u=/ap/20040811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_sales_tax' target='_blank'>Take back</a>

Maybe some other time............
08-12-2004 09:05 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #70
 
Trooper Wrote:<a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=544&e=2&u=/ap/20040811/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_sales_tax' target='_blank'>Take back</a>

Maybe some other time............
Hey Trooper, if you're suddenly going to be pious and start quoting the Bible, then have the integrity and intellectual honesty to do it right:

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." (II Thessalonians 2:11)


This verse doesn't end w/ a period, because the thought doesn't stop:

2 Thess 2:11-12
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
NKJV

Of course if v. 12 makes you feel a little uncomfortable...
08-12-2004 09:16 AM
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Trooper Offline
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Post: #71
 
DrTorch Wrote:Of course if v. 12 makes you feel a little uncomfortable...
I thought I was sparing you......................

03-razz
08-12-2004 09:33 AM
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