(10-13-2025 06:53 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-13-2025 06:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-13-2025 09:28 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I've seen this concept thrown around for awhile now. It's not new, and was originally defined and labeled by a German Social Scientist in the 1920's (Werner Sombart) assuming Wikipedia at least has the name and timing correct. I didn't read this guys works on the matter nor have I studied it extensively though did find a site (link and details below) though I think we can all understand what this is about intuitively. It assumes Capitalism (free markets?) follow a product/life cycle and we're supposedly in the end stage today. This has occurred on more than one occasion, with the fall of the Russian Empire to the Bolsheviks and the decade preceding the Russian Revolution were an ideal time for Democratic states that had capitalistic economic systems or simply a high percentage of wealth concentrated in the hands of a few where the "capitalist pigs" could be royalty/nobility as much as industrialists. In the past the free market driven democracies/republics have found ways to mitigate the risk - to "extend the life" of capitalism through the introduction of labor unions and anti-trust laws being the most prominent fixes in the early 20th century.

Today I think we are flirting with the notion that our latest iteration of capitalism - which is a regulated free market economy today - is becoming unstable. I think we all see it - corporations are trying to monetize "everything". You rarely buy music on physical media anymore - it's mostly subscription based. The decline of the cable industry is becoming more expensive with streaming services. Corporations continue to make more inroads into areas that were more the realm of small businesses. It's getting harder to find independent physicians as partnerships are giving way to corporate entities. I believe real estate has been outpacing inflation by significant levels - which I'm thinking is due to corporations buying up houses to make them rental properties. Amazon has killed a lot of smaller independent sellers and...of course their prices have been rising significantly since they've deeply damaged brick and mortar stores.

https://voicesofcapitalism.com/late-stag...-examples/

Quote:Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of a small elite while the majority struggle with stagnant wages and rising costs.

Large corporations dominate markets, reduce competition, and shape public policy to serve their interests.

Late-stage capitalism pushes constant consumption as a driver of economic growth, often through artificial needs and emotional manipulation.

Financial markets dominate the economy, prioritizing shareholder value over productive investment and worker welfare.

The gig economy replaces stable employment with precarious, low-benefit, short-term jobs that undermine labor rights.

What are your thoughts? Will we adapt again to get more use out of our free market systems? One area I think has been grossly underutilized is anti-trust laws that we currently have on the books. There have been MANY times in our recent past where M&A was allowed to proceed where in the past it never would have happened as a result of creating entities with monopoly powers.

What did Germany do? Therein resides your answer. Late-stage capitalism is not only subject to the propaganda of Communist agitation of the poorer masses, but its natural defense is to morph into fascism where a socialist state is provided by the industrial/corporate elite to secure the threat that communism poses. The State becomes the rallying point that disguises the designs of the corporate overlords and makes it seem like the country is united rather than exploited. Support the state and the state supports you. Question things and find out exactly how much your freedom has been eroded.

Freedom is essential to free markets. When insufficiently maintained with a balance of risk and opportunity it succeeds. But as the winners become more powerful, they use wealth to avoid risk rather than exploring opportunities. The creativity begins to give way to planned obsolescence, and perks are sought to ensure the winners stay the same. Competition and opportunity suffer, and we wind up where we are currently. Meanwhile, in a world that never ceased to be competitive resources become the primary objective of both business and the state. That means war. War raises productivity if you are winning and eliminates excess workforce. And the rich get richer. You will note that at the end of WWII that Porsche, Mercedez, Nissan, Toyota, Mitsubishi, and the German and italian aircraft manufacturers and ship builders all lived on under changed names, all remained viable as corporations. Only governments and people were destroyed. The wealthy lived on.

So you ask about late stage capitalism? Well we have two political parties in the U.S. both bent on a fascist approach to governance. The Republican version is at least peculiar to the U.S. while the Democratic version is more in tune with the E.U.. I just domestic imbalance over the foreign one!

Yes Germany went the socialist route with a Fascist controlled government. I don’t trust either party and you’re right that both want greater control. What makes me think the risk is greater for a Marxist revolution vs a fascist one coming about is who would be the charismatic leader to bring it about. Trump is the closest thing to a charismatic populist to morph us into fascism. But I don’t think Trump would do this. Dems sure don’t have a charismatic populist to pull it off.

AOC and Gavin Newsom is all the left has right now.

Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.


All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.

(10-14-2025 09:39 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.
Ouch, that hurts :)

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).
This isn't quite right. Most people lived in rural areas, and it wasn't until quite recent in our history did we become more urban. Sure, there were some artisans that could make money, but the majority of people were subsistence farmers and day laborers. Vast majority of people were NOT middle class. Regardless, what happened in the ancient world is moot. Still though, to say there were thriving middle classes as we would understand them is not accurate.

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.
Most commerce for the vast majority of history was through bartering. Sure you had some exchange of coins but that wasn't typical. Remember, most people lived in rural areas and were farmers. This was how it was done in medieval Europe and I'm sure in times the fall of the Roman empire as well. Plebeians in ancient Rome who grew rich and prosperous were the exception - not the rule.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.
Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. Yes, those who own the means of production can freely enter into contracts with other capitalists. Majority of people are not capitalists in the strictest definition of the word - they're labor.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.
No, the key to capitalism is nothing more than private ownership of productive assets. Granted, it's PREFERRABLE that the markets remain highly competitive to maximize employment, create more innovation in our products and to keep prices lower thru competition. However, that is not an equilibrium state. If you allow private ownership and competition in industries to go on with little to no intervention - the natural equillibrium is towards monopoly or oligopoly. You know this is true because you've witnessed it in too many industries to count. Automotive is one good example, because there were a lot more car companies in existence the early to mid 20th century vs today (domestic companies). International trade has helped to kick the can down the road further

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.
Disagree. Capitalism has no moral or values based framework. It's nothing more than private individuals/groups owning productive assets and competing against each other for market dominance. Left untouched the market place consolidates into either a monopoly or (most commonly) an oligopoly. The "eternal competition" dynamic is sustained only through government interventions and regulations. When the government steps back and does nothing - everything consolidates into one or a few over time.

All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.
Completely agree. You have a much more Pollyanna view of capitalism than I do. However, capitalism plus government regulation and intervention is the best option we have. Socialism/Fascism/Communism has always allowed more waste and problems due to concentrating power even more effectively than an oligopoly can

Late stage capitalism is a real think IMHO. Unlike what the author in the link states, the definition is simpler. It's the end game where market power across ALL INDUSTRIES is concentrated in the hands of one (monopoly) or a few (oligopoly). When that happens, we lose all semblance of a free market and we're in a plight that's "Fascism by proxy" if not outright Fascism. The counter to this is the rising of labor to take over. Unfortunately that morphs into collectivism/communism and that's the same outcome as Fascism. Ideally, we have some hybrid where private ownership exists, the government is truly a regulatory entity that keeps the eternal struggle going between capital and labor.

(10-14-2025 11:38 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 09:39 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.
Ouch, that hurts :)

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).
This isn't quite right. Most people lived in rural areas, and it wasn't until quite recent in our history did we become more urban. Sure, there were some artisans that could make money, but the majority of people were subsistence farmers and day laborers. Vast majority of people were NOT middle class. Regardless, what happened in the ancient world is moot. Still though, to say there were thriving middle classes as we would understand them is not accurate.

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.
Most commerce for the vast majority of history was through bartering. Sure you had some exchange of coins but that wasn't typical. Remember, most people lived in rural areas and were farmers. This was how it was done in medieval Europe and I'm sure in times the fall of the Roman empire as well. Plebeians in ancient Rome who grew rich and prosperous were the exception - not the rule.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.
Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. Yes, those who own the means of production can freely enter into contracts with other capitalists. Majority of people are not capitalists in the strictest definition of the word - they're labor.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.
No, the key to capitalism is nothing more than private ownership of productive assets. Granted, it's PREFERRABLE that the markets remain highly competitive to maximize employment, create more innovation in our products and to keep prices lower thru competition. However, that is not an equilibrium state. If you allow private ownership and competition in industries to go on with little to no intervention - the natural equillibrium is towards monopoly or oligopoly. You know this is true because you've witnessed it in too many industries to count. Automotive is one good example, because there were a lot more car companies in existence the early to mid 20th century vs today (domestic companies). International trade has helped to kick the can down the road further

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.
Disagree. Capitalism has no moral or values based framework. It's nothing more than private individuals/groups owning productive assets and competing against each other for market dominance. Left untouched the market place consolidates into either a monopoly or (most commonly) an oligopoly. The "eternal competition" dynamic is sustained only through government interventions and regulations. When the government steps back and does nothing - everything consolidates into one or a few over time.

All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.
Completely agree. You have a much more Pollyanna view of capitalism than I do. However, capitalism plus government regulation and intervention is the best option we have. Socialism/Fascism/Communism has always allowed more waste and problems due to concentrating power even more effectively than an oligopoly can

Late stage capitalism is a real think IMHO. Unlike what the author in the link states, the definition is simpler. It's the end game where market power across ALL INDUSTRIES is concentrated in the hands of one (monopoly) or a few (oligopoly). When that happens, we lose all semblance of a free market and we're in a plight that's "Fascism by proxy" if not outright Fascism. The counter to this is the rising of labor to take over. Unfortunately that morphs into collectivism/communism and that's the same outcome as Fascism. Ideally, we have some hybrid where private ownership exists, the government is truly a regulatory entity that keeps the eternal struggle going between capital and labor.

We are only in "late-stage capitalism" because of the failure of Truman and then Eisenhower to put anti-trust laws back in place following WWII. FDR suspended them to allow one industry to use patents from another to manufacture war materials for the successful prosecution of Germany, Italy and Japan. The theory only works because of that. Korea was an excuse to postpone reengagement, then Viet Nam, etc., etc. The truth is the rise of multinationals in a post war world and the use of international trade in diplomacy which was centered around the multi-nationals since they spread not only product throughout a rebuilding world, but jobs too, allowed the successful corporations to squelch the voices of the citizens within their own governments. At that point whether we wished to call it such or not, there was an industry use of government to accomplish its objectives. That accelerated under the H.W. and W. administrations with the latter finally at the helm when it was ruled by the courts that corporate entities were entitled to the same rights as citizens including political contributions. That ruling concretized advantages for the corporate elite and for the power of business to drown out the voice of citizens and IMO was the moment we crossed into an early stage of fascism systemically.

Had Truman bitten the bullet and reinstated anti-trust laws we may have had a much more volatile post War world, but I don't believe it would have impacted the Korean conflict as a line in the sand for communist advancement in the Far East. Why? It would not have been in the interest of corporations anywhere to have accepted the spread of communism in such a populated region realizing that India was volatile as well and Africa, particularly Congo, Rhodesia, and South Africa were in the cross hairs of the Soviet Union and today China for strategic minerals.

Sadly, the communists have so successfully augmented their objectives to allow Coporate investments in the building of their infrastructure that corporations always a slave to the public trading of their stock, find rebuffing them by withdrawing from their countries and leaving assets they built behind unpalatable for the trade of their stock. China in particular restructured communism into their own version of fascism by making the Politburo members CEOs. They realized that control could be maintained for the purposes of the state, rather than business by making the state the business and enriching their leaders to be the less unequal than others.

What I don't see being defended in the world anywhere in a country of significance is individual rights. We are in a new dark age, and one where lies and propaganda spread by electronic media coupled with an education system which has abandoned critical thought for rote learning, has created a world where blind faith in the indefensible positions taken by those in control go largely unchallenged.

It won't end well for anyone, and the misuse of technology has never been greater.

(10-14-2025 11:38 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 09:39 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.
Ouch, that hurts :)

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).
This isn't quite right. Most people lived in rural areas, and it wasn't until quite recent in our history did we become more urban. Sure, there were some artisans that could make money, but the majority of people were subsistence farmers and day laborers. Vast majority of people were NOT middle class. Regardless, what happened in the ancient world is moot. Still though, to say there were thriving middle classes as we would understand them is not accurate.

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.
Most commerce for the vast majority of history was through bartering. Sure you had some exchange of coins but that wasn't typical. Remember, most people lived in rural areas and were farmers. This was how it was done in medieval Europe and I'm sure in times the fall of the Roman empire as well. Plebeians in ancient Rome who grew rich and prosperous were the exception - not the rule.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.
Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. Yes, those who own the means of production can freely enter into contracts with other capitalists. Majority of people are not capitalists in the strictest definition of the word - they're labor.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.
No, the key to capitalism is nothing more than private ownership of productive assets. Granted, it's PREFERRABLE that the markets remain highly competitive to maximize employment, create more innovation in our products and to keep prices lower thru competition. However, that is not an equilibrium state. If you allow private ownership and competition in industries to go on with little to no intervention - the natural equillibrium is towards monopoly or oligopoly. You know this is true because you've witnessed it in too many industries to count. Automotive is one good example, because there were a lot more car companies in existence the early to mid 20th century vs today (domestic companies). International trade has helped to kick the can down the road further

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.
Disagree. Capitalism has no moral or values based framework. It's nothing more than private individuals/groups owning productive assets and competing against each other for market dominance. Left untouched the market place consolidates into either a monopoly or (most commonly) an oligopoly. The "eternal competition" dynamic is sustained only through government interventions and regulations. When the government steps back and does nothing - everything consolidates into one or a few over time.

All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.
Completely agree. You have a much more Pollyanna view of capitalism than I do. However, capitalism plus government regulation and intervention is the best option we have. Socialism/Fascism/Communism has always allowed more waste and problems due to concentrating power even more effectively than an oligopoly can

Late stage capitalism is a real think IMHO. Unlike what the author in the link states, the definition is simpler. It's the end game where market power across ALL INDUSTRIES is concentrated in the hands of one (monopoly) or a few (oligopoly). When that happens, we lose all semblance of a free market and we're in a plight that's "Fascism by proxy" if not outright Fascism. The counter to this is the rising of labor to take over. Unfortunately that morphs into collectivism/communism and that's the same outcome as Fascism. Ideally, we have some hybrid where private ownership exists, the government is truly a regulatory entity that keeps the eternal struggle going between capital and labor.

I believe in late stage capitalism. We're seeing some aspects of it now, and its accelerating. AI is going to make things worse if we don't actively combat it.

You can say Fascism by proxy but I think its more rightly expressed as corporatism or a blend of the public and private sectors. You can see it now, Trump is doing deal with individual corporations (and Obama did too), and creating policy with individual companies.

JR mentions the lack of anti-trust post WW2 and I think he has a point.

I'd also point to Jack Welch and his legion of followers in the Fortune 100 ranks. These guys moved the stock market and publicly traded companies thinking from a equity position to a shareholder value position. You can trace a line from Boeing's 737 MAX problems right back to Jack Welch (who's sycophant Stonecipher inexplicably became Boeing CEO during the MD merger despite MD being the failing company) whose slash and burn management style created some short term shareholder value but effectively gutted all the best parts of the business. Ironically, if Boeing didn't have the military piece (most of it a former MD division), I think they would have capitulated to Airbus in the late aughts.

We have to do more than just resume anti-trust legislation (which is a big problem thanks to lobbying), we need reshape corporate thinking. These mad dashes for quarterly reporting leave us constantly stepping over a dime to pick up a nickel. Not to mention mature industries are not in infinite growth mode but we incentivize everyone at the C level to figure out how to keep the stock price going up on speculation rather than develop nice dividend plans.

I actually think Trumps idea of making publicly traded companies only report every 6 months is good overall. Yeah some corporations are going to be able to screw the market by hiding bad news longer, but effective managers will be able to be incentivized to make sound business decisions over what might effect their stock from a quarterly report.

Thanks for your last post JR! While I knew that FDR's administration paved the way for all industry to be brought under government oversight for producing equipment and munitions for WW2, I didn't fully appreciate that things were permanently altered with the MNC's post WW2 and most likely as a precaution for a hot war with the USSR. This aligns with how I see it fitting in with the late stage capitalism idea, and how allowing anit-trust enforcement to be shelved gave us what we have today.

(10-14-2025 12:24 PM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:38 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 09:39 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.
Ouch, that hurts :)

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).
This isn't quite right. Most people lived in rural areas, and it wasn't until quite recent in our history did we become more urban. Sure, there were some artisans that could make money, but the majority of people were subsistence farmers and day laborers. Vast majority of people were NOT middle class. Regardless, what happened in the ancient world is moot. Still though, to say there were thriving middle classes as we would understand them is not accurate.

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.
Most commerce for the vast majority of history was through bartering. Sure you had some exchange of coins but that wasn't typical. Remember, most people lived in rural areas and were farmers. This was how it was done in medieval Europe and I'm sure in times the fall of the Roman empire as well. Plebeians in ancient Rome who grew rich and prosperous were the exception - not the rule.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.
Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. Yes, those who own the means of production can freely enter into contracts with other capitalists. Majority of people are not capitalists in the strictest definition of the word - they're labor.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.
No, the key to capitalism is nothing more than private ownership of productive assets. Granted, it's PREFERRABLE that the markets remain highly competitive to maximize employment, create more innovation in our products and to keep prices lower thru competition. However, that is not an equilibrium state. If you allow private ownership and competition in industries to go on with little to no intervention - the natural equillibrium is towards monopoly or oligopoly. You know this is true because you've witnessed it in too many industries to count. Automotive is one good example, because there were a lot more car companies in existence the early to mid 20th century vs today (domestic companies). International trade has helped to kick the can down the road further

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.
Disagree. Capitalism has no moral or values based framework. It's nothing more than private individuals/groups owning productive assets and competing against each other for market dominance. Left untouched the market place consolidates into either a monopoly or (most commonly) an oligopoly. The "eternal competition" dynamic is sustained only through government interventions and regulations. When the government steps back and does nothing - everything consolidates into one or a few over time.

All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.
Completely agree. You have a much more Pollyanna view of capitalism than I do. However, capitalism plus government regulation and intervention is the best option we have. Socialism/Fascism/Communism has always allowed more waste and problems due to concentrating power even more effectively than an oligopoly can

Late stage capitalism is a real think IMHO. Unlike what the author in the link states, the definition is simpler. It's the end game where market power across ALL INDUSTRIES is concentrated in the hands of one (monopoly) or a few (oligopoly). When that happens, we lose all semblance of a free market and we're in a plight that's "Fascism by proxy" if not outright Fascism. The counter to this is the rising of labor to take over. Unfortunately that morphs into collectivism/communism and that's the same outcome as Fascism. Ideally, we have some hybrid where private ownership exists, the government is truly a regulatory entity that keeps the eternal struggle going between capital and labor.

I believe in late stage capitalism. We're seeing some aspects of it now, and its accelerating. AI is going to make things worse if we don't actively combat it.

You can say Fascism by proxy but I think its more rightly expressed as corporatism or a blend of the public and private sectors. You can see it now, Trump is doing deal with individual corporations (and Obama did too), and creating policy with individual companies.

JR mentions the lack of anti-trust post WW2 and I think he has a point.

I'd also point to Jack Welch and his legion of followers in the Fortune 100 ranks. These guys moved the stock market and publicly traded companies thinking from a equity position to a shareholder value position. You can trace a line from Boeing's 737 MAX problems right back to Jack Welch (who's sycophant Stonecipher inexplicably became Boeing CEO during the MD merger despite MD being the failing company) whose slash and burn management style created some short term shareholder value but effectively gutted all the best parts of the business. Ironically, if Boeing didn't have the military piece (most of it a former MD division), I think they would have capitulated to Airbus in the late aughts.

We have to do more than just resume anti-trust legislation (which is a big problem thanks to lobbying), we need reshape corporate thinking. These mad dashes for quarterly reporting leave us constantly stepping over a dime to pick up a nickel. Not to mention mature industries are not in infinite growth mode but we incentivize everyone at the C level to figure out how to keep the stock price going up on speculation rather than develop nice dividend plans.

I actually think Trumps idea of making publicly traded companies only report every 6 months is good overall. Yeah some corporations are going to be able to screw the market by hiding bad news longer, but effective managers will be able to be incentivized to make sound business decisions over what might effect their stock from a quarterly report.

Agree that the MNC culture of short term gains and short term profit maximization is huge challenge. AI will most likely concentrate even more power to corporate entities to the detriment of labor. Organized labor should be furiously working to unionize more office worker jobs. IMHO, they have the potential for a new golden age for unions and labor if they can. IMHO, those in office jobs - even those with 4 year degrees - will embrace organized labor if they come calling.

(10-14-2025 11:38 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 09:39 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:21 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 01:19 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Free Markets capitalism has allowed folks to have upward mobility. Until this point in history this just didn’t happen.
Free market capitalism alone didn't create the middle class. The government did have to step in to intervene on the side of smaller industrialists and labor. This also included the 40 hour work week in addition to wage increases.

Unfortunately, to appease the world we decided to give up huge swaths of our economy. Once again the average American was sacrificed for this endeavor.
That's a point that would support the idea of Late Stage Capitalism. Corporations exerted control and influence on our politicians to allow them to increase their power to the detriment of the middle class...shipping jobs over seas to cut out American labor, modifying trade laws to allow reimport of cheap goods owned by the corporations, allowing M&A to progress to their logical conclusions - monopolies and oligopolies

It seems to me average Americans always are on the raw end of deals whether it’s trade unions or government elected officials.
This is the failing of capitalism without checks and balances to minimize chances for monopolies/oligopolies plus protections for labor

Also, what the author fails to comprehend is other forms of government have been an abysmal failure. Most all lead to authoritarian forms of governance
If the author was advocating for other economic systems, I didn't see it stated. Not saying the author or the site didn't do that, but in the link specific to Late Stage Capitalism it looked like some valid points were brought up.

He also has reformulated why they believe capitalism fails over greed.
I think it's valid to critique the author on using some ad-hoc arguments.

Capitalism depends on a manufacturer who has distributors aka middle men who are a buffer and the retailer end seller. These types believe that greed will cause the manufacturer to cut out the distributor and retailer to maximize profits and sell directly to the end user.
I don't think the existence of middlemen are a requirement of free market capitalism. However, most middlemen exist because of scarcity. It's hard for a manufacturer to do it all, and normally people who are experts in sales and distribution will offer a better business case than a manufacturer who isn't a natural expert in these matters.


They use McDonald’s as a case to verify their ideology.
I didn't read that too closely, but restaurants by their nature would be sales and distribution along with production. I assume in McDonald's case it's about vertical integration where the restaurant also controls the raw material inputs (like MickyD's owning potato farms. Vertical integration has been targeted by anti-trust, but primarily when a corporation monopolizes a raw material input that other competitors cannot easily access elsewhere

But, this scenario is simply impossible where the manufacturing process is a bit more integrated and detail oriented.

The end user will have questions and warranty issues and therefore destroy productivity to the point where manufacturers would go bankrupt from inefficiency

But, that’s not what happened here. What happened here was we simply shipped a large bulk of our economy aka wealth and jobs overseas to pacify large corporations and have not nations in order to sustain some level of peace through out the world. There philosophy not mine.
Again, this is a case in favor of late state capitalism. Unfettered capitalism trends towards monopolies and exploiting labor. For the latter Ford is always the example of paying higher wages without the requirement to do so. However, he's the exception and not the rule. As expected when you concentrate too much power into the hands of corporations, they find a way to move politicians to legislate in their favor. This is a major item that you can lay at the GOP's feet. You give too much credit to our politicians who allowed us to ship jobs over seas in exchange for international peace. Notice how all of this happened AFTER the end of the Cold War AND China was still mostly poor and backwards. It was a money grab - always was.

So, let’s be realistic and call it what it actually is as not some scapegoat called capitalism has run its course.
Not so fast. Capitalism was reformed several times throughout its history. Government oversight along with giving labor more power allowed capitalism to continue albeit in an altered form. There have been several instances of capitalism coming to it's logical conclusion where the government stepped in reset the timer. Labor unions, laws for workers rights and anti-trust were the major points to reset the clock on capitalism. Capitalism was in a "late stage" in the early 1900s. I think people don't fully grasp how much more fertile the ground was for Marxism - and Fascism - to ditching free market/capitalist economies. It made the rise of the USSR possible along with Mussolini and Hitler rising to power...though you can argue that Treaty of Versailles contributed to Hitler's rise. However, it was the market crash on Wall Street that ultimately juiced fascism across the world.

Another stifling blow has been government over reaches in the name of environmental protection. But I don’t want to become a novel writer like an attorney we know
Valid point but respectfully I don't think that's germaine to the discussion on late stage capitalism

LOL, I guess I wrote the novel. My comments in red as responses to most of your points.

Miko, I usually like your takes. But your responses here show a real misunderstanding of history.
Ouch, that hurts :)

The "middle class" wasn't "created." It's always existed anywhere there are towns, even in ancient Egypt. The middle class gets bigger in places/times where competitive markets are allowed to thrive. It got bigger during Republican Rome, pre-Renaissance northern Italy, Elizabethan England, and the USA for almost its entire history (including today; the data clearly shows an expansion of the middle class despite all the doom-and-gloom on the internet).
This isn't quite right. Most people lived in rural areas, and it wasn't until quite recent in our history did we become more urban. Sure, there were some artisans that could make money, but the majority of people were subsistence farmers and day laborers. Vast majority of people were NOT middle class. Regardless, what happened in the ancient world is moot. Still though, to say there were thriving middle classes as we would understand them is not accurate.

There are only two types of economic systems in post-hunter-gatherer societies: a system where contracts determine economic exchanges, and a system where status determines economic exchanges. Status can be given at birth (nobles vs peasants, Indian castes, racial quotas, etc) or it can be something you attain (laborers vs capitalists, political party membership, free vs slave, conquerors vs conquered, etc), but it's still status.
Most commerce for the vast majority of history was through bartering. Sure you had some exchange of coins but that wasn't typical. Remember, most people lived in rural areas and were farmers. This was how it was done in medieval Europe and I'm sure in times the fall of the Roman empire as well. Plebeians in ancient Rome who grew rich and prosperous were the exception - not the rule.

Capitalism is the system that uses freely entered contracts to determine exchanges.
Capitalism is just private ownership of the means of production. Yes, those who own the means of production can freely enter into contracts with other capitalists. Majority of people are not capitalists in the strictest definition of the word - they're labor.

Remember that the key to capitalism is not "free markets," the key is "competitive markets." This is an important distinction because some people interpret "free" to mean "free to collude with competitors and bribe politicians to raise barriers to entry." For example, a "company town" with one employer is closer to a status-based system than a competitive-markets system, and in that scenario the "capitalism vs socialism" debate is really a "my status vs your status" debate.
No, the key to capitalism is nothing more than private ownership of productive assets. Granted, it's PREFERRABLE that the markets remain highly competitive to maximize employment, create more innovation in our products and to keep prices lower thru competition. However, that is not an equilibrium state. If you allow private ownership and competition in industries to go on with little to no intervention - the natural equillibrium is towards monopoly or oligopoly. You know this is true because you've witnessed it in too many industries to count. Automotive is one good example, because there were a lot more car companies in existence the early to mid 20th century vs today (domestic companies). International trade has helped to kick the can down the road further

A shift away from competitive markets is not "capitalism running its course." It is not a "late stage" of capitalism. It is a shift backwards, back to a system where status is more important than free association through contracts.
Disagree. Capitalism has no moral or values based framework. It's nothing more than private individuals/groups owning productive assets and competing against each other for market dominance. Left untouched the market place consolidates into either a monopoly or (most commonly) an oligopoly. The "eternal competition" dynamic is sustained only through government interventions and regulations. When the government steps back and does nothing - everything consolidates into one or a few over time.

All that other stuff in the article about "environmental sustainability" and "profit accumulation" is red herrings that have nothing to do with economic systems. Just ask yourself how environmentally sustainable Mao was, or how many vacation homes the Politburo accumulated.
Completely agree. You have a much more Pollyanna view of capitalism than I do. However, capitalism plus government regulation and intervention is the best option we have. Socialism/Fascism/Communism has always allowed more waste and problems due to concentrating power even more effectively than an oligopoly can

Late stage capitalism is a real think IMHO. Unlike what the author in the link states, the definition is simpler. It's the end game where market power across ALL INDUSTRIES is concentrated in the hands of one (monopoly) or a few (oligopoly). When that happens, we lose all semblance of a free market and we're in a plight that's "Fascism by proxy" if not outright Fascism. The counter to this is the rising of labor to take over. Unfortunately that morphs into collectivism/communism and that's the same outcome as Fascism. Ideally, we have some hybrid where private ownership exists, the government is truly a regulatory entity that keeps the eternal struggle going between capital and labor.

A barter system describes monetary policy. Capitalism can exist under a barter system, just as well as it can under coinage or electronic banking. So can Communism. (although both capitalism and communism will have worse outcomes under barter). Farmers, then as now, could absolutely be middle class (and in Republican Rome, they were - this changed during the Roman Empire when status began to dominate).

Throughout most of European history, "public" vs "private" ownership didn't mean anything. The king was merely a very wealthy person who employed soldiers, and "the government" was merely employees of the king, and the "court" was literally the king playing the role of judge while his royal retinue of advisors and minstrels (his "court") watched. At its worst times, the king was judge, jury, legislature, police, landlord, commercial monopolist, and in all likelihood was also the counterparty in a lot of contractual lawsuits. Technically you could appeal to the Pope, but good luck getting his attention. Under your definition of capitalism, that was a very, very late-stage capitalist system.


The very concept of "late stage capitalism" implies an acceptance of Marx's theory that the fall of capitalism is inevitable.

Heck, the very term "capitalism" was defined by Marxists who were trying to build up a wicked strawman to define as their enemy. That's part of the reason it's so hard to argue against these guys in a debate.

Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

(10-14-2025 06:12 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

All great communicators work in redundancy. They repeat the same message over and over again in slightly different ways until the audience finally says, "Oh Yeah! I see that now!" So, brother keep it up! We ain't got their damned attention yet! I'm afraid the Bear is going to be at the door before most of them even want to see it. Why? Either they or their kids work for these damn corporations, and they want to cover their ears, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it is going to go away instead of eating them alive!

(10-14-2025 06:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:12 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

All great communicators work in redundancy. They repeat the same message over and over again in slightly different ways until the audience finally says, "Oh Yeah! I see that now!" So, brother keep it up! We ain't got their damned attention yet! I'm afraid the Bear is going to be at the door before most of them even want to see it. Why? Either they or their kids work for these damn corporations, and they want to cover their ears, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it is going to go away instead of eating them alive!

it's basically another version of reverting back to fiefdom (have used the comparative many a moon)...

what we both know deep down is the changes that need to be made will involve many a sacrifice ... and I simply don't see it happening...

therefore, I'll flow with least impact on the home soil before selling out en masse to the fagoos overseas in any capacity ... #henceDJT

it's ironic how ANTIFA chooses the shackles vs. the value of incentive...

and you're right ... NEVER QUIT!!! (thank you for the reminder)

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

(10-14-2025 06:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:12 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

All great communicators work in redundancy. They repeat the same message over and over again in slightly different ways until the audience finally says, "Oh Yeah! I see that now!" So, brother keep it up! We ain't got their damned attention yet! I'm afraid the Bear is going to be at the door before most of them even want to see it. Why? Either they or their kids work for these damn corporations, and they want to cover their ears, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it is going to go away instead of eating them alive!

as a sleight o' hand aside ... Oscar and Felix also figgled it out too, eh?

#hope

(10-14-2025 08:42 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:12 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

All great communicators work in redundancy. They repeat the same message over and over again in slightly different ways until the audience finally says, "Oh Yeah! I see that now!" So, brother keep it up! We ain't got their damned attention yet! I'm afraid the Bear is going to be at the door before most of them even want to see it. Why? Either they or their kids work for these damn corporations, and they want to cover their ears, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it is going to go away instead of eating them alive!

as a sleight o' hand aside ... Oscar and Felix also figgled it out too, eh?

#hope

It's the one thing we old coots can still get away with. Out of Corn Flakes, F.U.!

The children don't get it! They don't know their culture, let alone ours. My wife and another woman in her lab were accused by two younger hires of conspiring against them. When questioned by the Dean the evidence against them were instructions to the younger workers on how to use and clean the equipment. The conspiracy was that they wrote the instructions in another language. The Dean informed the two women in their 30's that the foreign language was English, only written in cursive. His weak ass solution was to require my wife and the other experienced laboratory technologist to email them instructions since they couldn't read cursive. Oh, and this was at the university in a doctoral area. Those working had to have a post graduate degree and experience. They came from a human hospital. Let the level of stupidity and blame of others in a life critical situation sink in. These idiots will be caring for us in our dotage. Now that is what I call a vision of hell.

(10-14-2025 08:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:42 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 06:12 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

I don't know how many times it needs to be said ... once anti-trust was abandoned coupled with the gold standard, it was Katy bar the door for muh corps, pacs, and globohomos...

you simply use more words and define it so much better ...

I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over...

All great communicators work in redundancy. They repeat the same message over and over again in slightly different ways until the audience finally says, "Oh Yeah! I see that now!" So, brother keep it up! We ain't got their damned attention yet! I'm afraid the Bear is going to be at the door before most of them even want to see it. Why? Either they or their kids work for these damn corporations, and they want to cover their ears, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend it is going to go away instead of eating them alive!

as a sleight o' hand aside ... Oscar and Felix also figgled it out too, eh?

#hope

It's the one thing we old coots can still get away with. Out of Corn Flakes, F.U.!

The children don't get it! They don't know their culture, let alone ours. My wife and another woman in her lab were accused by two younger hires of conspiring against them. When questioned by the Dean the evidence against them were instructions to the younger workers on how to use and clean the equipment. The conspiracy was that they wrote the instructions in another language. The Dean informed the two women in their 30's that the foreign language was English, only written in cursive. His weak ass solution was to require my wife and the other experienced laboratory technologist to email them instructions since they couldn't read cursive. Oh, and this was at the university in a doctoral area. Those working had to have a post graduate degree and experience. They came from a human hospital. Let the level of stupidity and blame of others in a life critical situation sink in. These idiots will be caring for us in our dotage. Now that is what I call a vision of hell.

lol ... that's beyond sad funny...

I remember the 'three lines' cursive training ... however, I was the one that went straight to print before learning how to type ... it's what I did/do coupled with the 'moist' that couldn't read the 'script' for shite ... hence, #muhOscar ...

my sig is still distinguishable via the 'curves' and legal binding ... although, it did take a minute with my middle name later in life ...

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

You are right about everything, but ignore the simple truth it has been that way throughout our nation’s history. I mean at one point Rockefeller controlled almost 15% of our national GDP. Special deals,’backdoor power, nothing new. Things are just more open now because info travels more freely and faster.