(10-14-2025 09:26 PM)banker Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

You are right about everything, but ignore the simple truth it has been that way throughout our nation’s history. I mean at one point Rockefeller controlled almost 15% of our national GDP. Special deals,’backdoor power, nothing new. Things are just more open now because info travels more freely and faster.

Yes, but when the inhabitants of Millionaire's village on Jekyll Island were evacuated from their Summer residences because of a plot by the Kaiser to abduct them all via U-boat in WWI in an effort to throw the American economy into a shambles, then even with their union busting scabs, manipulated prices and political influence over everything involving their industries, they weren't disrupting the family farm, shutting down small business, and turning the nation into a West Virginia company store town, or as in the case of the textile mills the same in the Carolinas and other places in the South.

Now the company store towns are in China, the Philippines, Indonesia, Mumbai, and other such places. And those jobs are gone and government regulations manipulated for them make the purchase of family homes and farms and the destruction of private business the beginning of the Company Store Nation. Time to rebel! Not even J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, or Carnegie were this greedy, and perhaps because they weren't invisible as major shareholders behind a faceless CEO whose name was not a household word. They were bad, these guys today are those guys on major steroids.

(10-14-2025 09:26 PM)banker Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

You are right about everything, but ignore the simple truth it has been that way throughout our nation’s history. I mean at one point Rockefeller controlled almost 15% of our national GDP. Special deals,’backdoor power, nothing new. Things are just more open now because info travels more freely and faster.

who loaned the gov't $$$ to fund WWI? ... who did the house of Morgan end up colluding with, eh? ... what drove antitrust laws ... all the while central banking was in its infancy...

https://jamesperloff.net/how-j-p-morgan-...c-of-1907/

the robber baron era is epic ... and we learned to forget the lessons...

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

The "late stage" premise is complete BS.

The problems discussed are not new.

Lost me at the start

(10-15-2025 04:24 AM)shere khan Wrote:  The "late stage" premise is complete BS.

The problems discussed are not new.

Lost me at the start

I tend to agree. Nothing is really new, just the same concepts in new forms/technologies, etc. IMO, it's based on flawed Marxist assumptions of inherent stages and inevitable collapse.

(10-15-2025 04:24 AM)shere khan Wrote:  The "late stage" premise is complete BS.

The problems discussed are not new.

Lost me at the start

you walked out of a few econ classes, too, Ja?! ...

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 04:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Still don’t know that I would call if late stage capitalism because capitalism alone was never allowed to play out.

There are too many factors you are ignoring that helped us get here that had nothing to do with capitalism but more to do with situations here and abroad.

Your author completely ignores that Americans gave up industry and wealth and added a monstrosity of debt all for world peace.

So, attempting to say the cycle played out is just not truthful.

About the only thing I do agree with that will occur at some point if things don’t change is that wealth will concentrated in the hands of a few and the masses will become destitute and desperate.

I had this same discussion with a liberal Californian who all but admitted it’s already a done deal in California. I need to accept that it’s going to happen through out the US.

My industry of diesel electric parts has exploded a lot of mergers buyouts and prices have soared.

Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

(10-15-2025 09:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

"CaPiTaLiSm WaS nEvEr AlLoWeD" is as silly as people saying "True Communism hasn't been tried"

Look up Galts Gulch Chile. Thats true capitalism. Unfettered capitalism doesn't work because theres bad actors, just like unfettered communism/socialism doesn't work. Caveat emptor and caveat venditor aren't acceptable regulations for an entire society.

Calling the CHinese economic system late stage communism is actually pretty accurate. The 5 year planned economy and government ownership of the means of production wasn't working. They pivoted towards a hybrid economic model keeping authoritarian control of the populace and its worked well for them economically.

(10-15-2025 09:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 05:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Crooked politics and cronyism destroyed private business. Every Big Box store or major chain refuses to locate unless the county involved gives them a 50% reduction in property tax, and unless the state allows them to keep the state's portion of the sales tax until the initial cost of their facility is repaid.

That means every mom and pop business opens their door to what amounts to a 12-14% deficit in local and state taxes alone before they even try to buy wholesale what the big stores are having made in China by child and low paid women's wages.

There is no magic in chains except in their ability to seek and gain perks due to their corporate lobby. What's even worse is that the only full-time employees will be the store manager and the head teller, and maybe the person who handles unloading and binning the merchandise through the back door shipping trucks. Everyone else may be making $12 an hour but their hours will be held to 32 a week so no benefits are required but they will be able to withhold a portion of the wages for a supplemental insurance like AFLAC or Liberty National.

Mom and Pop may have only had 3 or 4 employees in the Drug Store, Clothing Store, Shoe Store, Hardware Store, Sporting Goods Store, or General Store, but those employees all worked full time and received benefits.

And wherever these corporate crooks locate property taxes have to go up. Why? Mom and Pop paid all of their county taxes including on commercial property. When they are put out of business the 50% break the big boys get means private property taxes must go up to fund the 50% lost to the Corporate Chains just so local education remains funded, and that doesn't include fire departments, police departments and emergency respond teams.

Free market capitalism doesn't exist anymore. Crony capitalism does and only corporations get the perks. Now the bastards are buying up private homes to turn them into rentals and buying up farms to control food production and manipulate prices at the grocery stores they own.

I'd make a big argument for the American Way of Life I was raised with but I've watched handed over to the corporations for political donations and money under the table to local and state officials. And do you think appointed judges are going to rule against it, or local D.A.'s prosecute it?

And this isn't a Democrat and Republican issue. This is payola cronyism and it kills real free enterprise because in any business if you have tax break of half of the local property tax and all of the state's portion of the sales tax to pay for your building and land, which mom and pop had to fully pay for on their own then you are miles ahead.

Now boys and girls we'll take it to the next step. What happens when that Walmart or Target or Best Buy or Home Depot or Lowes or Bed Bath and Beyond or whatever the hell they are called in your area actually pays off their building cost and land purchase with the state's sale's tax money? They build a bigger store 2 miles down the road and get the same breaks all over again and get to sell their old location for commercial value and profit 100% from what the state and county bought for them.

And we call that the free market??? Get the hell out of here! The free market is only free for corporate multinationals and they don't give a shite about the American worker, the American citizen, and only want the American government involved when some foreign power seizes their assets abroad.

That's the American Free Market. It's stealing farmland, private residences, fruitful wages for dedicated workers, and replacing it all with what profits them and they only hire employees so stupid and inept they can fired at any time and they hire them as the head of one foreign credit card processing center that I knew what he called C students or less from colleges because they were too stupid to figure out how to steal from his computer system.

And that my friends, is the country we now inhabit. And it's concern for you the individual and your rights, are diminishing daily as the corporations find another way to get into your pockets, as if buying up Hospitals and Health care, assisted living facilities and nursing homes and funeral homes in the 90's and 00's wasn't enough to be able to steal a healthy % of anyone's inheritance.

Look I'm as pro American and conservative as anyone here, but let's quit lying to ourselves about what the hell is going on domestically and Dems and Repubs are both equally guilty in selling the farm for personal gain!

The Free Market of Capitalism is gone! Early Stage Corporate Fascism is what we are in!

Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

Have you ever read the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith?

Understanding how Capitalism in a FREE MARKET works in unencumbered political environment.

(10-15-2025 09:38 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

Have you ever read the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith?

Understanding how Capitalism in a FREE MARKET works in unencumbered political environment.

Here's the book in PDF form. Point me to the section(s) that show me how it's supposed to work free from external meddling. I understand the concepts of the division of labor, capital generations and allocation. This is the book upon which microeconomics is based on plus much of macroeconomics.

https://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/Smith...ions_p.pdf

(10-15-2025 07:52 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 04:24 AM)shere khan Wrote:  The "late stage" premise is complete BS.

The problems discussed are not new.

Lost me at the start

you walked out of a few econ classes, too, Ja?! ...

LOL! The most clueless people when it comes to economics are economists. Economists only exist because the super wealthy need someone to convince the public that what they do has a motive besides greed. Everyone needs a science to explain their actions. It's the best defense in the world. Atheists needed the science of evolution, though it is limited. The environmentalists pick the sciences that back their social positions and ignore the sciences that dispute them. Wall Street has investors always buying and selling based on charts and graphs of what has happened in the past when 90% of the time they have nothing to do with how changes are going to be made in the future. Russia is an oligarchy, China is fascist while pretending to be communist, Europe is socialistic though not yet socialist, and the U.S. is trending fascist. Canadians are simply nice people who are oblivious to the crooks in charge of them. That's our world. Not one damn bit of it runs according to anyone's theoretical model, never has, and never will! Why? Because people are impulsive and calculating at the same time and there is no predicting what they will do unless they are just plain stupid. And my father gave the best advice about the stupid.

(10-13-2025 10:09 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-13-2025 09:38 AM)goodknightfl Wrote:  

(10-13-2025 09:28 AM)miko33 Wrote:  I've seen this concept thrown around for awhile now. It's not new, and was originally defined and labeled by a German Social Scientist in the 1920's (Werner Sombart) assuming Wikipedia at least has the name and timing correct. I didn't read this guys works on the matter nor have I studied it extensively though did find a site (link and details below) though I think we can all understand what this is about intuitively. It assumes Capitalism (free markets?) follow a product/life cycle and we're supposedly in the end stage today. This has occurred on more than one occasion, with the fall of the Russian Empire to the Bolsheviks and the decade preceding the Russian Revolution were an ideal time for Democratic states that had capitalistic economic systems or simply a high percentage of wealth concentrated in the hands of a few where the "capitalist pigs" could be royalty/nobility as much as industrialists. In the past the free market driven democracies/republics have found ways to mitigate the risk - to "extend the life" of capitalism through the introduction of labor unions and anti-trust laws being the most prominent fixes in the early 20th century.

Today I think we are flirting with the notion that our latest iteration of capitalism - which is a regulated free market economy today - is becoming unstable. I think we all see it - corporations are trying to monetize "everything". You rarely buy music on physical media anymore - it's mostly subscription based. The decline of the cable industry is becoming more expensive with streaming services. Corporations continue to make more inroads into areas that were more the realm of small businesses. It's getting harder to find independent physicians as partnerships are giving way to corporate entities. I believe real estate has been outpacing inflation by significant levels - which I'm thinking is due to corporations buying up houses to make them rental properties. Amazon has killed a lot of smaller independent sellers and...of course their prices have been rising significantly since they've deeply damaged brick and mortar stores.

https://voicesofcapitalism.com/late-stag...-examples/

Quote:Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of a small elite while the majority struggle with stagnant wages and rising costs.

Large corporations dominate markets, reduce competition, and shape public policy to serve their interests.

Late-stage capitalism pushes constant consumption as a driver of economic growth, often through artificial needs and emotional manipulation.

Financial markets dominate the economy, prioritizing shareholder value over productive investment and worker welfare.

The gig economy replaces stable employment with precarious, low-benefit, short-term jobs that undermine labor rights.

What are your thoughts? Will we adapt again to get more use out of our free market systems? One area I think has been grossly underutilized is anti-trust laws that we currently have on the books. There have been MANY times in our recent past where M&A was allowed to proceed where in the past it never would have happened as a result of creating entities with monopoly powers.

until the last 50 years or so the Gig economy was the norm. You rarely held jobs for years/lifetime.
Until unions and large corporations, The wealth was held by a few elites. We are not headed for something new but returning to the way things always were.

I think of free market/capitalist systems as evolving over time and that there were a series of gates that it had to pass thru in order to continue on as an economic system that made sense. I don't know enough of British history during the Industrial Revolution but this is where capitalism truly hit its stride and to your point a lot of these jobs were of shorter term. They weren't as bad as the ancient times where it was popular for jobs to be truly gigs since workers would be hired for a day at a time; however, yes I think labor in the 1700s into the late 1800s were shorter term with zero safety nets. Recall that Karl Marx's philosophy on Communism was significantly more popular in the late 1800's into the pre-WW1 time frame than it is today. Capitalism was in serious trouble since you not only had no real rights for workers plus monarchies still existed in Europe where they held way more power than today. The free market economies survived Marxist threats because of the reforms of the early 20th century where labor unions became stronger, anti-trust laws to help prevent industrialists from gaining too much power and the introductions of the social safety nets along with the concept of pensions that transformed the capitalist/free market system we enjoy today.

However, while the development and growth of a middle class extended the life of capitalist systems it's been trending in the wrong direction. At least that's the perception today, and with AI in our midst today along with the costs feeling high compared to recent years it's a legitimate concern.

There probably needs to be a form of anti-trust legislation for large companies over a certain size. This legislation would cover public companies as well as these huge pools of private equity money. The purpose of the legislation would be to prevent the middle class from vanishing---because a healthy democracy can only exist if there is a large and prosperous educated middle class that most anyone can aspire to if they work hard. How you do that is an open question. It could be that you require any business over " X' size must by law share X% of profits with labor. It could be that we limit the size of any one business to "X dollars" to leave room for smaller mom-and-pop companies. I honestly dont know the best way to accomplish the goal. All I can say is the goal would be to prevent a world where there is no middle class and most own nothing---meaning avoiding becoming a nation where there is only a small "ownership class" and the rest of the population resides in the "renter/subscriber" serf class.

I believe that we can continue to realize all the benefits of capitalism as our primary economic system---but that doesnt mean it will never require any guardrails or tweaks along the way to prevent it from failing from its own weak points. As you've pointed out, its been done before.

Response to the idea that "Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self" and the question "Have you read 'The Wealth of Nations'"? Figured it would be easier to start a completely new comment without a myriad of quotes.

There is a copy of the book in the public domain that I linked earlier - contained in a PDF. I have it open in another tab and have been reading it - got to around page 110. Granted I'm skimming for the main ideas and if something looks more interesting I'll read more closely So far nothing revelatory - I've learned this part so far. Topics I've seen were about division of labor, labor costs, buying/selling in open markets, policy differences in Europe causing inefficient markets, etc. It's always been a great work. Smith quantified and defined the economics occurring in the UK in the 1700s. He's the father of Microeconomics. Also provided a lot of background for Macroeconomics too.

I think I'm seeing what you are talking about with not allowing capitalism to operate in a natural state - you're referring to Laissez-faire. I thought maybe you were referring to something else, but it must be this. Is that correct? Assuming it is, then yes in some cases and circumstances overregulation and laws limiting use of resources could affect the economy along with government subsidies to various industries and also government intervention to prop up or push an industry that is not wanted or needed by society. Yes this happens and yes it makes capitalism less effective. However, as it pertains to the concept of "late stage capitalism" this alone is incomplete. One critical component that the Wealth of Nations did fully grasp - and I can't blame Adam Smith for not seeing this - is the high barriers to entry that evolved from larger scale factories. Back in Smith's time, the largest metal producers were small to moderate sized foundries. In today's world you can still open a smaller foundry; however, it's so much more unattainable than for capitalists back then. Farming is a great example of this. Even family farms need to be way bigger today than in the past in order to be able to sell crops. I know farmer's markets exist. However, that's a niche area today whereas in the past that was THE MARKET people went to for their food. Automobiles are another great example. There were way more and smaller sized car companies vs today domestically. The barriers to entry to start your own car company are MASSIVE vs what they would have been in the early 1900s when autos first hit the scene.

Assembly lines and having to have a certain size to hit the economy of scale for many industries were not a thing to deal with Smith's age. That's not a trivial thing. It's no different from the 2nd amendment in in the early 1800s where a typical family had a firearm that would make them a near peer with a soldier vs today where you have zero chance of approaching the firepower of a typical soldier. Same goes for being a capitalist today. Look at what's happened with Amazon, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...all of these stores that came into local communities, temporarily cut pricing to drive local businesses out and then raise their prices. LOL, Amazon is no longer the cheap game in town. They put a bunch of people out of business and then...raised prices.

The government looked the other way. They gave up their oversight and regulation of business in most cases. Microsoft would have been split into parts in the early 1900s with anti-trust laws. No one cares today. Amazon would not be what it is today either. But...this is what happens when you allow capitalism to proceed unchecked with no real oversight. The moment one company can exert some dominance in the market, it leverages it ASAP and then does what it can to drive competitors out of the market. That's how unfettered capitalism operates - one or a few get bigger more quickly and then they leverage their sizes to squash the smaller competitors. When government DOES NOT INTERVENE this is the end result. The movement towards monopoly - or oligopoly when a few large firms come to an impasse. Ironically, oligopolies tend to be in threes.

(10-15-2025 05:52 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Response to the idea that "Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self" and the question "Have you read 'The Wealth of Nations'"? Figured it would be easier to start a completely new comment without a myriad of quotes.

There is a copy of the book in the public domain that I linked earlier - contained in a PDF. I have it open in another tab and have been reading it - got to around page 110. Granted I'm skimming for the main ideas and if something looks more interesting I'll read more closely So far nothing revelatory - I've learned this part so far. Topics I've seen were about division of labor, labor costs, buying/selling in open markets, policy differences in Europe causing inefficient markets, etc. It's always been a great work. Smith quantified and defined the economics occurring in the UK in the 1700s. He's the father of Microeconomics. Also provided a lot of background for Macroeconomics too.

I think I'm seeing what you are talking about with not allowing capitalism to operate in a natural state - you're referring to Laissez-faire. I thought maybe you were referring to something else, but it must be this. Is that correct? Assuming it is, then yes in some cases and circumstances overregulation and laws limiting use of resources could affect the economy along with government subsidies to various industries and also government intervention to prop up or push an industry that is not wanted or needed by society. Yes this happens and yes it makes capitalism less effective. However, as it pertains to the concept of "late stage capitalism" this alone is incomplete. One critical component that the Wealth of Nations did fully grasp - and I can't blame Adam Smith for not seeing this - is the high barriers to entry that evolved from larger scale factories. Back in Smith's time, the largest metal producers were small to moderate sized foundries. In today's world you can still open a smaller foundry; however, it's so much more unattainable than for capitalists back then. Farming is a great example of this. Even family farms need to be way bigger today than in the past in order to be able to sell crops. I know farmer's markets exist. However, that's a niche area today whereas in the past that was THE MARKET people went to for their food. Automobiles are another great example. There were way more and smaller sized car companies vs today domestically. The barriers to entry to start your own car company are MASSIVE vs what they would have been in the early 1900s when autos first hit the scene.

Assembly lines and having to have a certain size to hit the economy of scale for many industries were not a thing to deal with Smith's age. That's not a trivial thing. It's no different from the 2nd amendment in in the early 1800s where a typical family had a firearm that would make them a near peer with a soldier vs today where you have zero chance of approaching the firepower of a typical soldier. Same goes for being a capitalist today. Look at what's happened with Amazon, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...all of these stores that came into local communities, temporarily cut pricing to drive local businesses out and then raise their prices. LOL, Amazon is no longer the cheap game in town. They put a bunch of people out of business and then...raised prices.

The government looked the other way. They gave up their oversight and regulation of business in most cases. Microsoft would have been split into parts in the early 1900s with anti-trust laws. No one cares today. Amazon would not be what it is today either. But...this is what happens when you allow capitalism to proceed unchecked with no real oversight. The moment one company can exert some dominance in the market, it leverages it ASAP and then does what it can to drive competitors out of the market. That's how unfettered capitalism operates - one or a few get bigger more quickly and then they leverage their sizes to squash the smaller competitors. When government DOES NOT INTERVENE this is the end result. The movement towards monopoly - or oligopoly when a few large firms come to an impasse. Ironically, oligopolies tend to be in threes.

Well----lets be clear. We dont have capitalism anymore at the top levels. One reason we are in the situation we are in is that we have not let companies fail that should have failed. Yes---systemic bank failures and subsequent deep recessions (or even depressions) are not fun---but they are a necessary part of capitalism as the reset the stage, clear the system of bad debt/investments, and refocus capital in new more effective directions. They also motivate respect for long term thinking and create a healthy fear of the consequences of risky behavior in business. Capitalism is where risk taking investors pony up the capital and reap the rewards if the investment pans out---but can lose big if the venture fails. A system where capitalist enjoy the big profits if the investment is a winner----but the taxpayers bear the brunt of cost if the venture fails is NOT capitalism. I dont know what that is---but its not classic capitalism.

Right now---between too big to fail, bank/company bail outs, and Fed meddling----our captains of industry have little long term vision beyond next quarters numbers and they seem too confident that they can take any risk knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer simply because any Administration will want to avoid a financial storm on their watch. That leads to excessive investment in the wrong places and lots of money tied up in bad zombie companies that should have gone bust years ago.

(10-15-2025 08:06 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 05:52 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Response to the idea that "Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self" and the question "Have you read 'The Wealth of Nations'"? Figured it would be easier to start a completely new comment without a myriad of quotes.

There is a copy of the book in the public domain that I linked earlier - contained in a PDF. I have it open in another tab and have been reading it - got to around page 110. Granted I'm skimming for the main ideas and if something looks more interesting I'll read more closely So far nothing revelatory - I've learned this part so far. Topics I've seen were about division of labor, labor costs, buying/selling in open markets, policy differences in Europe causing inefficient markets, etc. It's always been a great work. Smith quantified and defined the economics occurring in the UK in the 1700s. He's the father of Microeconomics. Also provided a lot of background for Macroeconomics too.

I think I'm seeing what you are talking about with not allowing capitalism to operate in a natural state - you're referring to Laissez-faire. I thought maybe you were referring to something else, but it must be this. Is that correct? Assuming it is, then yes in some cases and circumstances overregulation and laws limiting use of resources could affect the economy along with government subsidies to various industries and also government intervention to prop up or push an industry that is not wanted or needed by society. Yes this happens and yes it makes capitalism less effective. However, as it pertains to the concept of "late stage capitalism" this alone is incomplete. One critical component that the Wealth of Nations did fully grasp - and I can't blame Adam Smith for not seeing this - is the high barriers to entry that evolved from larger scale factories. Back in Smith's time, the largest metal producers were small to moderate sized foundries. In today's world you can still open a smaller foundry; however, it's so much more unattainable than for capitalists back then. Farming is a great example of this. Even family farms need to be way bigger today than in the past in order to be able to sell crops. I know farmer's markets exist. However, that's a niche area today whereas in the past that was THE MARKET people went to for their food. Automobiles are another great example. There were way more and smaller sized car companies vs today domestically. The barriers to entry to start your own car company are MASSIVE vs what they would have been in the early 1900s when autos first hit the scene.

Assembly lines and having to have a certain size to hit the economy of scale for many industries were not a thing to deal with Smith's age. That's not a trivial thing. It's no different from the 2nd amendment in in the early 1800s where a typical family had a firearm that would make them a near peer with a soldier vs today where you have zero chance of approaching the firepower of a typical soldier. Same goes for being a capitalist today. Look at what's happened with Amazon, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...all of these stores that came into local communities, temporarily cut pricing to drive local businesses out and then raise their prices. LOL, Amazon is no longer the cheap game in town. They put a bunch of people out of business and then...raised prices.

The government looked the other way. They gave up their oversight and regulation of business in most cases. Microsoft would have been split into parts in the early 1900s with anti-trust laws. No one cares today. Amazon would not be what it is today either. But...this is what happens when you allow capitalism to proceed unchecked with no real oversight. The moment one company can exert some dominance in the market, it leverages it ASAP and then does what it can to drive competitors out of the market. That's how unfettered capitalism operates - one or a few get bigger more quickly and then they leverage their sizes to squash the smaller competitors. When government DOES NOT INTERVENE this is the end result. The movement towards monopoly - or oligopoly when a few large firms come to an impasse. Ironically, oligopolies tend to be in threes.

Well----lets be clear. We dont have capitalism anymore at the top levels. One reason we are in the situation we are in is that we have not let companies fail that should have failed. Yes---systemic bank failures and subsequent deep recessions (or even depressions) are not fun---but they are a necessary part of capitalism as the reset the stage, clear the system of bad debt/investments, and refocus capital in new more effective directions. They also motivate respect for long term thinking and create a healthy fear of the consequences of risky behavior in business. Capitalism is where risk taking investors pony up the capital and reap the rewards if the investment pans out---but can lose big if the venture fails. A system where capitalist enjoy the big profits if the investment is a winner----but the taxpayers bear the brunt of cost if the venture fails is NOT capitalism. I dont know what that is---but its not classic capitalism.

Right now---between too big to fail, bank/company bail outs, and Fed meddling----our captains of industry have little long term vision beyond next quarters numbers and they seem too confident that they can take any risk knowing they will be bailed out by the tax payer simply because any Administration will want to avoid a financial storm on their watch. That leads to excessive investment in the wrong places and lots of money tied up in bad zombie companies that should have gone bust years ago.

Your assessment is dead accurate; your conclusion however is not. Why is Gold passing 4200 and Silver at 53? Nobody trusts the banking system, its capitalization, or its account insurance, and they don't trust the value of their own cash. Bitcoin is definitely a testimony to the latter. If the ability of the nation to defend its interests was still widely believed Gold and Silver would not be so high. People for decades trusted the dollar. They did so because of U.S. military might abroad, because the U.S. productivity backed the dollar, and because World Reserve Currency status meant something. The Digital age and 42 Trillion in debt eroded the latter, we exported our ability to produce negating the secondary, and 8 years of a lack of resolve to defend our vital interests first under Obama and then Biden coupled with the DEI military hires has eroded even confidence in the former.

Gold and Silver are high because everyone around the globe knows Hell is coming.

(10-15-2025 09:30 AM)ballantyneapp Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 08:35 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  Great post as always JR.

It only proves my point that we are not in a late stage capitalistic position

In order for this to have occurred the free market capitalism would have all but devoured itself.

This was not allowed to happen because of all the corruption at the local state national and international level by politicians.

So, shat you left with is a shell that appears to be late stage capitalism but on closer inspection you can see an entirely different set of circumstances occurred to bring you to this point.

In other words, it did not happen as the author suggested or as the political philosophers attempted to explain capitalism’s demise.

I can’t remember who wrote this but it has always stuck with me.

They thought they could silence the Truth. They schemed and plotted to erase the Truth. First it was shot multiple times stabbed over and over. Next, it was dismembered and burned beyond recognition. They finally decided to forever erase any evidence so the truth must be buried never to be seen again. And just when they thought they had succeeded in their plans there it was in plain view for all to see. The Truth had never left.

Paraphrased

I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

"CaPiTaLiSm WaS nEvEr AlLoWeD" is as silly as people saying "True Communism hasn't been tried"

Look up Galts Gulch Chile. Thats true capitalism. Unfettered capitalism doesn't work because theres bad actors, just like unfettered communism/socialism doesn't work. Caveat emptor and caveat venditor aren't acceptable regulations for an entire society.

Calling the CHinese economic system late stage communism is actually pretty accurate. The 5 year planned economy and government ownership of the means of production wasn't working. They pivoted towards a hybrid economic model keeping authoritarian control of the populace and its worked well for them economically.

Completely disagree with both assertions.

Ideologues are just that. The concept of any true form will NEVER EXIST for the exact reasons you mentioned.

You want to convince yourself it has and was a failure but you dismiss the real reason and the real reason wasn’t the ideology.

Once man is introduced into the equation is where things go wrong. I have been on the planet long enough to know that man can justify anything he does regardless of what is morally correct.

Progressives prove my point daily with their social agenda.

(10-15-2025 09:58 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:38 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:07 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 09:02 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(10-14-2025 11:25 PM)miko33 Wrote:  I know you're conversing with JR, but...I feel as if I'm talking to a brick wall! To steal a phrase from software development - Crony Capitalism, the trends towards the formations of monopolies/oligopolies are NOT bugs that come about in capitalism - these are features of it. You understand that a free society does not stay free and open because of hitting a state of equilibrium. If you excuse my mixed metaphors - maintaining a free society is the continuous injection of energy into the system so as to maintain an orderly system. Left to its own devises, it would devolve like in thermodynamics of a closed system and entropy would increase. A healthy free market that runs on capitalistic principles is just like a free and open society. You don't simply flip the switch and it acts like a perpetual motion machine until an external force acts to disrupt it. It's an engine that needs regular maintenance, proper lubrication and proper fuel to keep running at optimal performance. The natural tendency for the engine is to break down over time. The human desire to "win at all costs" is the sand in the bearings, the sugar in the fuel and the skipping of maintenance/repairs.

You continue to ignore the obvious by siding with author on the idea of late stage because Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self.

Saying we are in the late stages of Capitalism is like saying China is in the late stages of Communism.

Neither are true because neither operate as we’re intended just in name only.

Okay. Let's start with the part in bold. What does it mean when you say that this economic system was never allowed to be true to itself?

I think we're talking at each other and not to each other. Let's see if we can get on the same page.

Have you ever read the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith?

Understanding how Capitalism in a FREE MARKET works in unencumbered political environment.

Here's the book in PDF form. Point me to the section(s) that show me how it's supposed to work free from external meddling. I understand the concepts of the division of labor, capital generations and allocation. This is the book upon which microeconomics is based on plus much of macroeconomics.

https://www.ibiblio.org/ml/libri/s/Smith...ions_p.pdf

If you have never read the book in its entirety clef notes are not going to give you the full picture.

You think abstract and ideologically so this book read in its entirety will give you perspective that our economy was never anything but a variation of Capitalism

(10-15-2025 05:52 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Response to the idea that "Capitalism was NEVER ALLOWED to be its true self" and the question "Have you read 'The Wealth of Nations'"? Figured it would be easier to start a completely new comment without a myriad of quotes.

There is a copy of the book in the public domain that I linked earlier - contained in a PDF. I have it open in another tab and have been reading it - got to around page 110. Granted I'm skimming for the main ideas and if something looks more interesting I'll read more closely So far nothing revelatory - I've learned this part so far. Topics I've seen were about division of labor, labor costs, buying/selling in open markets, policy differences in Europe causing inefficient markets, etc. It's always been a great work. Smith quantified and defined the economics occurring in the UK in the 1700s. He's the father of Microeconomics. Also provided a lot of background for Macroeconomics too.

I think I'm seeing what you are talking about with not allowing capitalism to operate in a natural state - you're referring to Laissez-faire. I thought maybe you were referring to something else, but it must be this. Is that correct? Assuming it is, then yes in some cases and circumstances overregulation and laws limiting use of resources could affect the economy along with government subsidies to various industries and also government intervention to prop up or push an industry that is not wanted or needed by society. Yes this happens and yes it makes capitalism less effective. However, as it pertains to the concept of "late stage capitalism" this alone is incomplete. One critical component that the Wealth of Nations did fully grasp - and I can't blame Adam Smith for not seeing this - is the high barriers to entry that evolved from larger scale factories. Back in Smith's time, the largest metal producers were small to moderate sized foundries. In today's world you can still open a smaller foundry; however, it's so much more unattainable than for capitalists back then. Farming is a great example of this. Even family farms need to be way bigger today than in the past in order to be able to sell crops. I know farmer's markets exist. However, that's a niche area today whereas in the past that was THE MARKET people went to for their food. Automobiles are another great example. There were way more and smaller sized car companies vs today domestically. The barriers to entry to start your own car company are MASSIVE vs what they would have been in the early 1900s when autos first hit the scene.

Assembly lines and having to have a certain size to hit the economy of scale for many industries were not a thing to deal with Smith's age. That's not a trivial thing. It's no different from the 2nd amendment in in the early 1800s where a typical family had a firearm that would make them a near peer with a soldier vs today where you have zero chance of approaching the firepower of a typical soldier. Same goes for being a capitalist today. Look at what's happened with Amazon, Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot...all of these stores that came into local communities, temporarily cut pricing to drive local businesses out and then raise their prices. LOL, Amazon is no longer the cheap game in town. They put a bunch of people out of business and then...raised prices.

The government looked the other way. They gave up their oversight and regulation of business in most cases. Microsoft would have been split into parts in the early 1900s with anti-trust laws. No one cares today. Amazon would not be what it is today either. But...this is what happens when you allow capitalism to proceed unchecked with no real oversight. The moment one company can exert some dominance in the market, it leverages it ASAP and then does what it can to drive competitors out of the market. That's how unfettered capitalism operates - one or a few get bigger more quickly and then they leverage their sizes to squash the smaller competitors. When government DOES NOT INTERVENE this is the end result. The movement towards monopoly - or oligopoly when a few large firms come to an impasse. Ironically, oligopolies tend to be in threes.

Now, you are starting to get a better picture. And, yes Smith didn’t see how things would evolve or the scale of productivity that could be achieved. It doesn’t however negate his concepts.

My question to you is why you are trying so hard to defend an author who clearly dismisses all of the extraneous factors that accompanies our variation of capitalism then presuppose it ran its course?

Clear example of what the author wants us to accept.

Years ago in horse racing, favored horses were weighted down with extra pounds to try to compensate for their competitors.

If the horse lost the race we could surmise well he is slowing down. May be time for him to go to pasture

Yet we completely ignored the fact this horse was unfairly restricted with extra weight his competitors didn’t have.

Those pesky facts keep getting in the way of my assertions

(10-15-2025 07:30 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-15-2025 04:24 AM)shere khan Wrote:  The "late stage" premise is complete BS.

The problems discussed are not new.

Lost me at the start

I tend to agree. Nothing is really new, just the same concepts in new forms/technologies, etc. IMO, it's based on flawed Marxist assumptions of inherent stages and inevitable collapse.

Add me to the list. I agree. It's all hoping capitalism collapses. The funny thing is the people wishing for capitalism to collapse think they will benefit.