(05-07-2025 04:01 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 10:33 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:54 AM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:45 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:42 AM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  Like SK and TB4E said, I have no problem if you want to own one. Just don't force me to own one. I want the choice. (Because, you know, freedom of choice and stuff.)

nuts would like to have shoulder mounted rpg launchers and 900 hp ... can't road authorize those, eh??!

stink, if I'm not allowed to have a fully-loaded, fully-functional F-23, you're not allowed to have rpg launchers or 900 horsepower for your vehicle. (Well, okay. I'm sure the 900 hp is fine.)

Also, I woke up with a headache. I need, as Troy MacGreggor from the MST3K-riffed movie the Final Sacrifice said, "FEWD!"

@tripsXtrey

Ewe wang?

I didn't ring you. It's bull****. I did not ring you!


Ohai, AAA!

(I'm sorry. I had to do it.)

(05-07-2025 01:40 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:55 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:54 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:49 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:12 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  I cant tell you how many times I have hit elvis over the head on this one issue. The current battery technologies require much more charge current once the batteries get above 80%.

The dealer that sold my son in law and daughter theirs said to not charge it above 80%, but didnt say why. The reason is the shock you will get when you see how much that final 20% cost you.

Listening to you talk about this is like watching kids trying to play a game of telephone. You have no idea what you are talking about.

1. They told them not to charge above 80% as a normal state of charge because of battery chemistry. NMC battery chemistry experiences higher battery degradation when stored above 80% charge. Manufactures of EVs with NMC battery cells recommend 80% as the normal charge setting, then if you are leaving for a road trip set it to charge to 100% the night before.

2. Batteries don’t require more current to charge above 80%, it’s actually quite the opposite. The car pulls the most amperage while charging with the total state of charge in the 10% to 70% range, and amperage draw starts to trail down over 80%. On an L3 charger if I plug in at 15% charge the car will charge at around 150Kw (assuming the battery is preconditioned) from plug in until 80%. Once as the total charge goes above 80% the charge rate ramps down to the 50Kw range, until the high 90s when it ramps down again. It doesn’t take more current to charge above 80%, it takes more TIME. Some chargers cost more above 80% if the charger is busy as a financial incentive to get you to move along and not sit there waiting for the car to charge to 100%. I charge my car to 100% at home all the time (LFP batteries), but on the supercharger I only charge until 80%. Takes about 15 minutes to charge from 15% to 80% then just keep moving along. I don’t want to spend another 15 minutes to get the last 15%.

lulz....i told you guys....

Right? He could've said all of that without being condescending. (He can't help it though. Poor guy.)

he basically made my point without realizing he made my point.

many battery chemistries have an issue charging above a certain rate, such as 80%. The faster you try to charge it above 80%, the more of that energy goes to waste in the form of heat. So, you can continue to fast charge it, and it will cost you out the ass. Or you can slow down the charge once you hit 80% to prevent it from killing your pocketbook.

Some chargers will do this throttle down automatically.

As far as how high to charge the batteries, well that is dependent on the chemistry makeup of the battery. Lithium batteries made from nickle/cobalt/manganese (NMC) prefer to be stored long term at around 50%. If you need to drive somewhere, then charge it to 80% then drive it. Keeping this type of battery charged above 80% for long periods of time will degrade it.

Lithium batteries made out of iron phosphate need to be charged to 100% at least a couple of times per week or they will prematurely degrade. This is completely different from the NMC chemistry.

The tesla model my kids bought was a model 3 with LIPO batteries. And only charging that battery to 80% will prematurely degrade it.

Surprise, more wrong information.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% won’t prematurely degrade them. It will make the battery meter of the BMS system inaccurate. LFP batteries need to be charged to 100% a couple of times a month in order to balance the cells. If you don’t charge to 100% then the battery percentage becomes inaccurate, 5% might be 1%.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% except for a twice a month charge to 100% for battery balancing will provide a longer life to LFP batteries. The difference in charging strategy compared to NMC is LFP is much more durable, and way less susceptible to state of charge based battery degradation. LFP supports 5x more cycles when compared to NMC, so while charging to 100% every time isn’t optimal an LFP pack charged to 100% every time will provide many more cycles than an NMC pack only charged to 80%.

(05-07-2025 05:00 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 01:40 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:55 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:54 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:49 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  Listening to you talk about this is like watching kids trying to play a game of telephone. You have no idea what you are talking about.

1. They told them not to charge above 80% as a normal state of charge because of battery chemistry. NMC battery chemistry experiences higher battery degradation when stored above 80% charge. Manufactures of EVs with NMC battery cells recommend 80% as the normal charge setting, then if you are leaving for a road trip set it to charge to 100% the night before.

2. Batteries don’t require more current to charge above 80%, it’s actually quite the opposite. The car pulls the most amperage while charging with the total state of charge in the 10% to 70% range, and amperage draw starts to trail down over 80%. On an L3 charger if I plug in at 15% charge the car will charge at around 150Kw (assuming the battery is preconditioned) from plug in until 80%. Once as the total charge goes above 80% the charge rate ramps down to the 50Kw range, until the high 90s when it ramps down again. It doesn’t take more current to charge above 80%, it takes more TIME. Some chargers cost more above 80% if the charger is busy as a financial incentive to get you to move along and not sit there waiting for the car to charge to 100%. I charge my car to 100% at home all the time (LFP batteries), but on the supercharger I only charge until 80%. Takes about 15 minutes to charge from 15% to 80% then just keep moving along. I don’t want to spend another 15 minutes to get the last 15%.

lulz....i told you guys....

Right? He could've said all of that without being condescending. (He can't help it though. Poor guy.)

he basically made my point without realizing he made my point.

many battery chemistries have an issue charging above a certain rate, such as 80%. The faster you try to charge it above 80%, the more of that energy goes to waste in the form of heat. So, you can continue to fast charge it, and it will cost you out the ass. Or you can slow down the charge once you hit 80% to prevent it from killing your pocketbook.

Some chargers will do this throttle down automatically.

As far as how high to charge the batteries, well that is dependent on the chemistry makeup of the battery. Lithium batteries made from nickle/cobalt/manganese (NMC) prefer to be stored long term at around 50%. If you need to drive somewhere, then charge it to 80% then drive it. Keeping this type of battery charged above 80% for long periods of time will degrade it.

Lithium batteries made out of iron phosphate need to be charged to 100% at least a couple of times per week or they will prematurely degrade. This is completely different from the NMC chemistry.

The tesla model my kids bought was a model 3 with LIPO batteries. And only charging that battery to 80% will prematurely degrade it.

Surprise, more wrong information.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% won’t prematurely degrade them. It will make the battery meter of the BMS system inaccurate.

It will degrade them because you will be issuing a deeper depth of discharge starting at 80% vs 100% for the same trip. Try cycling a lipo battery between 80% down to 30% and another battery from 100% down to 50% and see which one lasts significantly longer. Most lipos depth of discharge charts will show it will cut the number of lifetime cycles in about half. By going to only 80% it will screw with the BMS enough that it will stop charging to 100% if you wanted it to. By drawing deeper into the discharge level, it will affect the overall life. Which causes owners of these vehicles to start bitching because they lose their full charge range rather quickly, and then it goes downhill from there.

(05-07-2025 05:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:00 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 01:40 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:55 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:54 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  lulz....i told you guys....

Right? He could've said all of that without being condescending. (He can't help it though. Poor guy.)

he basically made my point without realizing he made my point.

many battery chemistries have an issue charging above a certain rate, such as 80%. The faster you try to charge it above 80%, the more of that energy goes to waste in the form of heat. So, you can continue to fast charge it, and it will cost you out the ass. Or you can slow down the charge once you hit 80% to prevent it from killing your pocketbook.

Some chargers will do this throttle down automatically.

As far as how high to charge the batteries, well that is dependent on the chemistry makeup of the battery. Lithium batteries made from nickle/cobalt/manganese (NMC) prefer to be stored long term at around 50%. If you need to drive somewhere, then charge it to 80% then drive it. Keeping this type of battery charged above 80% for long periods of time will degrade it.

Lithium batteries made out of iron phosphate need to be charged to 100% at least a couple of times per week or they will prematurely degrade. This is completely different from the NMC chemistry.

The tesla model my kids bought was a model 3 with LIPO batteries. And only charging that battery to 80% will prematurely degrade it.

Surprise, more wrong information.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% won’t prematurely degrade them. It will make the battery meter of the BMS system inaccurate.

It will degrade them because you will be issuing a deeper depth of discharge starting at 80% vs 100% for the same trip. Try cycling a lipo battery between 80% down to 30% and another battery from 100% down to 50% and see which one lasts significantly longer. Most lipos depth of discharge charts will show it will cut the number of lifetime cycles in about half. By going to only 80% it will screw with the BMS enough that it will stop charging to 100% if you wanted it to. By drawing deeper into the discharge level, it will affect the overall life. Which causes owners of these vehicles to start bitching because they lose their full charge range rather quickly, and then it goes downhill from there.

You simply don’t understand the topic you are trying to discuss.

An LFP battery cycled between 80% and 30% with a bi-monthly 100% charge for balancing will live longer than an LFP battery charged to 100% and cycled to 50% each time.

(05-07-2025 06:07 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 04:18 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 04:01 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 10:33 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:54 AM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  stink, if I'm not allowed to have a fully-loaded, fully-functional F-23, you're not allowed to have rpg launchers or 900 horsepower for your vehicle. (Well, okay. I'm sure the 900 hp is fine.)

Also, I woke up with a headache. I need, as Troy MacGreggor from the MST3K-riffed movie the Final Sacrifice said, "FEWD!"

@tripsXtrey

Ewe wang?

I didn't ring you. It's bull****. I did not ring you!


Ohai, AAA!

(I'm sorry. I had to do it.)

(05-07-2025 05:50 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:00 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 01:40 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 12:55 PM)GeminiCoog Wrote:  Right? He could've said all of that without being condescending. (He can't help it though. Poor guy.)

he basically made my point without realizing he made my point.

many battery chemistries have an issue charging above a certain rate, such as 80%. The faster you try to charge it above 80%, the more of that energy goes to waste in the form of heat. So, you can continue to fast charge it, and it will cost you out the ass. Or you can slow down the charge once you hit 80% to prevent it from killing your pocketbook.

Some chargers will do this throttle down automatically.

As far as how high to charge the batteries, well that is dependent on the chemistry makeup of the battery. Lithium batteries made from nickle/cobalt/manganese (NMC) prefer to be stored long term at around 50%. If you need to drive somewhere, then charge it to 80% then drive it. Keeping this type of battery charged above 80% for long periods of time will degrade it.

Lithium batteries made out of iron phosphate need to be charged to 100% at least a couple of times per week or they will prematurely degrade. This is completely different from the NMC chemistry.

The tesla model my kids bought was a model 3 with LIPO batteries. And only charging that battery to 80% will prematurely degrade it.

Surprise, more wrong information.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% won’t prematurely degrade them. It will make the battery meter of the BMS system inaccurate.

It will degrade them because you will be issuing a deeper depth of discharge starting at 80% vs 100% for the same trip. Try cycling a lipo battery between 80% down to 30% and another battery from 100% down to 50% and see which one lasts significantly longer. Most lipos depth of discharge charts will show it will cut the number of lifetime cycles in about half. By going to only 80% it will screw with the BMS enough that it will stop charging to 100% if you wanted it to. By drawing deeper into the discharge level, it will affect the overall life. Which causes owners of these vehicles to start bitching because they lose their full charge range rather quickly, and then it goes downhill from there.

You simply don’t understand the topic you are trying to discuss.

An LFP battery cycled between 80% and 30% with a bi-monthly 100% charge for balancing will live longer than an LFP battery charged to 100% and cycled to 50% each time.

nope, I'll try to locate a pdf that shows it in a picture for you.

(05-07-2025 09:53 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:09 AM)b2b Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:55 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:12 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:07 AM)b2b Wrote:  Wait a minute... I thought it was free to charge them? I thought that was supposed to be a selling point... that they were cheaper.

I cant tell you how many times I have hit elvis over the head on this one issue. The current battery technologies require much more charge current once the batteries get above 80%.

The dealer that sold my son in law and daughter theirs said to not charge it above 80%, but didnt say why. The reason is the shock you will get when you see how much that final 20% cost you.

And when the battery goes out your real value plummets

Get rid of it before the warranty is up

Friend has one under warranty with a bad battery and six months later still no replacement

Good grief. That's almost like false advertising.

In fairness, that isn't an EV only problem. One of my employees bought a Kia against all advice because it has a 10/100,000 warranty. It's been at the dealership for months waiting on an engine replacement. It seems a lot of the manufacturers are having issues getting major components.

Can’t imagine any ICE vehicle waiting 6 months for a battery

Someday they’ll get there

Battery Technology would need to improve drastically before I’d ever consider an EV

(05-07-2025 11:50 PM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:53 AM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 09:09 AM)b2b Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:55 AM)BlueDragon Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 08:12 AM)UofMstateU Wrote:  I cant tell you how many times I have hit elvis over the head on this one issue. The current battery technologies require much more charge current once the batteries get above 80%.

The dealer that sold my son in law and daughter theirs said to not charge it above 80%, but didnt say why. The reason is the shock you will get when you see how much that final 20% cost you.

And when the battery goes out your real value plummets

Get rid of it before the warranty is up

Friend has one under warranty with a bad battery and six months later still no replacement

Good grief. That's almost like false advertising.

In fairness, that isn't an EV only problem. One of my employees bought a Kia against all advice because it has a 10/100,000 warranty. It's been at the dealership for months waiting on an engine replacement. It seems a lot of the manufacturers are having issues getting major components.

Can’t imagine any ICE vehicle waiting 6 months for a battery

Someday they’ll get there

Battery Technology would need to improve drastically before I’d ever consider an EV

it's not just conquering the physics ... the infrastructural support is no fk'n way close to here w/o the teat for those moving in 'beaters'

you spoilt li'l biatches w/o a ****'n clue...

(05-07-2025 06:41 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:50 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:37 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 05:00 PM)U_of_Elvis Wrote:  

(05-07-2025 01:40 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  he basically made my point without realizing he made my point.

many battery chemistries have an issue charging above a certain rate, such as 80%. The faster you try to charge it above 80%, the more of that energy goes to waste in the form of heat. So, you can continue to fast charge it, and it will cost you out the ass. Or you can slow down the charge once you hit 80% to prevent it from killing your pocketbook.

Some chargers will do this throttle down automatically.

As far as how high to charge the batteries, well that is dependent on the chemistry makeup of the battery. Lithium batteries made from nickle/cobalt/manganese (NMC) prefer to be stored long term at around 50%. If you need to drive somewhere, then charge it to 80% then drive it. Keeping this type of battery charged above 80% for long periods of time will degrade it.

Lithium batteries made out of iron phosphate need to be charged to 100% at least a couple of times per week or they will prematurely degrade. This is completely different from the NMC chemistry.

The tesla model my kids bought was a model 3 with LIPO batteries. And only charging that battery to 80% will prematurely degrade it.

Surprise, more wrong information.

Charging LFP batteries to 80% won’t prematurely degrade them. It will make the battery meter of the BMS system inaccurate.

It will degrade them because you will be issuing a deeper depth of discharge starting at 80% vs 100% for the same trip. Try cycling a lipo battery between 80% down to 30% and another battery from 100% down to 50% and see which one lasts significantly longer. Most lipos depth of discharge charts will show it will cut the number of lifetime cycles in about half. By going to only 80% it will screw with the BMS enough that it will stop charging to 100% if you wanted it to. By drawing deeper into the discharge level, it will affect the overall life. Which causes owners of these vehicles to start bitching because they lose their full charge range rather quickly, and then it goes downhill from there.

You simply don’t understand the topic you are trying to discuss.

An LFP battery cycled between 80% and 30% with a bi-monthly 100% charge for balancing will live longer than an LFP battery charged to 100% and cycled to 50% each time.

nope, I'll try to locate a pdf that shows it in a picture for you.

There are two primary types of battery degradation. Depth of discharge, or the number of full cycle equivalents is one of them. Keeping the battery between 80% and 20% for these discharge cycles provides the best results. The other is calendar aging, and calendar aging is driven by the state of charge that the battery sits at. Calendar aging accelerates at state of charge over 90%.

LFP packs are seeing testing for 3000 - 5000 full cycle equivalent discharges, when 1000 full cycles would put over 200k miles on the car. So while charging to 100% every time increases state of charge calendar aging Tesla has decided it isn’t a concern since the pack supports so many full cycle equivalent discharges that the car will fall apart before the battery is dead. If charging to 100% every time means that calendar aging takes the full cycle equivalent capacity from 3000 - 5000 cycles to 2000 to 4000 cycles oh well, 2000 cycles is still 400k miles.

Your statement that charging an LFP pack to 80% hurts it is just wrong. As long as you charge to 100% for cell balance a couple of times a month the battery charged to 80% will outlive the battery charged to 100% each time because the cells are kept at a lower state of charge which greatly reduces calendar aging.

you dipshites always leave out load and thermo ... fk'n morons...