(12-27-2012 11:18 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:15 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:13 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:10 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:06 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  So we like him now?

Imo, he is being mishandled badly along with alot of the other players. The guy should be a top flight, reliable point guard by now.

And don't forget Joe also went something like 12-12 at the free throw line down the stretch against Xavier to seal that victory.

I just don't think he's a true pure PG.

Not that he cant be a good one at times, but not a pure one at all.

Whose falut is that? This team hasn't had a TRUE pg since Kemp. And isn't recruiting one either. Pookie (scoring 25+ppg isn't a TRUE pg either).


Unless he is going after Chiozza, Memphis will have had a SG playing PG for at least 5 straight years.

He sure gets a lot of assists for someone who isn't a point guard. Basically I think some folks freaked out over one bad half vs VCU. Including the coach.

Isn't the first time coach has over reacted. For the life of me i don't understant why this team isn't flying all over the court (pressing, trapping and running). Pastner wants Joe to be Willie Kemp when (if allowed) could have an Iverson type out there.

Just about every point guard that's worth a crap at the high division one level was a scorer in high school. Even the Craft kid at Ohio State. Modern basketball is about beating people off the dribble and creating shots. When Joe is iso'd one on one he beats his man 95% of the time. Playing the two and running off screens isn't the way he's going to score.

(12-27-2012 11:29 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  Just about every point guard that's worth a crap at the high division one level was a scorer in high school. Even the Craft kid at Ohio State. Modern basketball is about beating people off the dribble and creating shots. When Joe is iso'd one on one he beats his man 95% of the time. Playing the two and running off screens isn't the way he's going to score.

Most 1 AND 2 guards were scorers at the HS level.

(12-27-2012 10:11 AM)Tony85 Wrote:  ...

Beating UTEP did multiple things for Josh and the program considering the state of the program at the time. We won CUSA in year 2 after Cal (automatic tourney birth), which set up the Arizona game. We went from a disastrous season to enormous hope for the future with the UTEP win and then challenging an Elite 8 team with mostly freshmen.

We were on a roll and needed the Xavier win for credibility. Much like the game with Xavier this year so late in the schedule (providing Xavier gets hot this year).

We did not win CUSA in year two. We finished fourth. We won the CUSA tournament.

(12-27-2012 11:35 AM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 10:11 AM)Tony85 Wrote:  ...

Beating UTEP did multiple things for Josh and the program considering the state of the program at the time. We won CUSA in year 2 after Cal (automatic tourney birth), which set up the Arizona game. We went from a disastrous season to enormous hope for the future with the UTEP win and then challenging an Elite 8 team with mostly freshmen.

We were on a roll and needed the Xavier win for credibility. Much like the game with Xavier this year so late in the schedule (providing Xavier gets hot this year).

We did not win CUSA in year two. We finished fourth. We won the CUSA tournament.

That's why I put automatic birth. You don't get an automatic birth for winning the regular season (ie UTEP)

(12-27-2012 11:10 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:06 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:05 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  Joe Jackson almost single-handedly won that UTEP game.

So we like him now?

Imo, he is being mishandled badly along with alot of the other players. The guy should be a top flight, reliable point guard by now.

And don't forget Joe also went something like 12-12 at the free throw line down the stretch against Xavier to seal that victory.

So, you're saying he's coached to turn the ball over and choose poor shots because the staff feels he's more useful sulking on the bench?

Yep, every shortcoming a player has is because of coaching...

...and Jedi has a point. Joe HAS to play PG if basketball will be a part of his life post-college...there isn't much demand, outside of rec leagues, for sub-6' SG's.

(12-27-2012 02:49 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:10 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:06 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:05 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  Joe Jackson almost single-handedly won that UTEP game.

So we like him now?

Imo, he is being mishandled badly along with alot of the other players. The guy should be a top flight, reliable point guard by now.

And don't forget Joe also went something like 12-12 at the free throw line down the stretch against Xavier to seal that victory.

So, you're saying he's coached to turn the ball over and choose poor shots because the staff feels he's more useful sulking on the bench?

Yep, every shortcoming a player has is because of coaching...

No, it is that the coach has stunted his development by not allowing Joe to work through his mistakes.

As I have noted before, Darius Washington had a NEGATIVE assist to turnover ratio his sophomore year. Did Cal bench him for a more "pure" point guard in Andre Allen (1.9:1 a/to ratio)? Hell no. Cal understood that the good that Darius brought outweighed the stupid turnovers he was going to make.

Iverson as a frosh had 133 assists and 132 turnovers. He shot 39% from the field, 22% from three and 68.8% from the line. He also averaged 32.2 minutes a game.

Iverson improved his shooting % the next year, but still only had a 1.24:1 a/to ratio. granted, AI is far more skilled than Joe, BUT certainly part of AI's progression was due to the fact he knew he was in for better or worse and the coach had confidence in him.

At no point has Pastner both said that AND lived by his word. Even this year, four games into the season Pastner was benchng the guy.

(12-27-2012 03:02 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 02:49 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  [quote='Neidermeyer' pid='8751209' dateline='1356624623']
[quote='Brother Bluto' pid='8751191' dateline='1356624394']
[quote='Neidermeyer' pid='8751183' dateline='1356624307']

No, it is that the coach has stunted his development by not allowing Joe to work through his mistakes.

As I have noted before, Darius Washington had a NEGATIVE assist to turnover ratio his sophomore year. Did Cal bench him for a more "pure" point guard in Andre Allen (1.9:1 a/to ratio)? Hell no. Cal understood that the good that Darius brought outweighed the stupid turnovers he was going to make.

Iverson as a frosh had 133 assists and 132 turnovers. He shot 39% from the field, 22% from three and 68.8% from the line. He also averaged 32.2 minutes a game.

Iverson improved his shooting % the next year, but still only had a 1.24:1 a/to ratio. granted, AI is far more skilled than Joe, BUT certainly part of AI's progression was due to the fact he knew he was in for better or worse and the coach had confidence in him.

At no point has Pastner both said that AND lived by his word. Even this year, four games into the season Pastner was benchng the guy.

As always, you are TOTALLY overstating his "benching" to suit your argument.

He leads the team in scoring, assists and is second in minutes played. (Crawford leads the team in mpg and has a whopping 5 more total minutes played)

Your logic is grossly flawed.

Consider yourself "saloogied"

(12-27-2012 03:06 PM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 03:02 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 02:49 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  [quote='Neidermeyer' pid='8751209' dateline='1356624623']
[quote='Brother Bluto' pid='8751191' dateline='1356624394']
[quote='Neidermeyer' pid='8751183' dateline='1356624307']

No, it is that the coach has stunted his development by not allowing Joe to work through his mistakes.

As I have noted before, Darius Washington had a NEGATIVE assist to turnover ratio his sophomore year. Did Cal bench him for a more "pure" point guard in Andre Allen (1.9:1 a/to ratio)? Hell no. Cal understood that the good that Darius brought outweighed the stupid turnovers he was going to make.

Iverson as a frosh had 133 assists and 132 turnovers. He shot 39% from the field, 22% from three and 68.8% from the line. He also averaged 32.2 minutes a game.

Iverson improved his shooting % the next year, but still only had a 1.24:1 a/to ratio. granted, AI is far more skilled than Joe, BUT certainly part of AI's progression was due to the fact he knew he was in for better or worse and the coach had confidence in him.

At no point has Pastner both said that AND lived by his word. Even this year, four games into the season Pastner was benchng the guy.

As always, you are TOTALLY overstating his "benching" to suit your argument.

He leads the team in scoring, assists and is second in minutes played. (Crawford leads the team in mpg and has a whopping 5 more total minutes played)

Your logic is grossly flawed.

Overstating "benching" really?

What the hell was the Minnesota game then? If anything my point is better made by Pastners wildily inconsistent use of Joe. The same guy that gets the most minutes was also the guy benched for practically the whole game IN A LOSS. I could see if Memphis had been winning by 20 and Joe wasn't needed, but Hollins was lighting up Memphis and the offense looked like crap.

Not to mentioned getting benched after the Georgetown game the year before. And not to mention the fact he was yanked as a starter his freshman year, too.

Hell, after the Samford game (coincidentally right before the Bahamas) Pastner remarked that (of all players) Joe wan't pleased with JJ's play that game, despite AT having ZERO rebounds in 39 minutes and TB having 2 in 25 mins. Joe had 13 points was 3-7 from three and committed 0 turnovers. Yet Pastner took the time to specifically address Joe's play.

(12-27-2012 02:49 PM)99Tiger Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:10 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:06 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 11:05 AM)Neidermeyer Wrote:  Joe Jackson almost single-handedly won that UTEP game.

So we like him now?

Imo, he is being mishandled badly along with alot of the other players. The guy should be a top flight, reliable point guard by now.

And don't forget Joe also went something like 12-12 at the free throw line down the stretch against Xavier to seal that victory.

So, you're saying he's coached to turn the ball over and choose poor shots because the staff feels he's more useful sulking on the bench?

Yep, every shortcoming a player has is because of coaching...

...and Jedi has a point. Joe HAS to play PG if basketball will be a part of his life post-college...there isn't much demand, outside of rec leagues, for sub-6' SG's.

You can't be serious.

Pastner is still coach and will be coach through the next 2 years...at MINIMUM. I know that irritates the hell out of hte Pastner-bashers but it is what it is.

Oral Roberts up next.

(12-26-2012 11:06 PM)memphis mania Wrote:  There are only a handful of schools that can go back to winning big after a big time coach like Calipari leaves and those are your 3-5 "blue blood" programs. Hell, look what happened to KY after Tubby Smith left. Some of you need to take a step back or two and look at the reality of the situation here. This basketball program is poised and positioned extremely well right now. Would have all liked to have a NCAA Tournament win in the last 3 years or beat a ranked opponent? Of course. But we have bounced back very nicely from the Cal departure, and are primed for big time success right now.

No offense but this sounds exactly like what people on here were saying two seasons ago. The fact of the matter is this group and Pastner have not delivered up to expectations. And I am weary of folks saying we should lower our expectations when we have failed to meet them all a month into the season. We are 7-3 now and with our schedule, I am still hopeful we can end up 25-6 going into CUSA tournament. That would meet my expectations.

My expectations are that this year's team competes for a national championship (the NCAA title pre-empting the trolls).

Man I really wish they had beaten Louisville, VCU and Minnesota.

I recognize that through ten games this season our kids have not looked like a Final Four contender.

Will still enjoy every game they play, hoping they win them all. While I get the whine sentiment, the geeeeeeee they played pooooooorly against Lipscomb and therefore how dare any Memphis fan actually not whine about that or actually recognize that yet still be willing to support the team making it to Atlanta...but...so what.

Looking forward to Oral Roberts. Which does not mean I do not wish the kids had beaten VCU. Just not willing to let a 7-3 start ruin the rest of the season. The kids could win their next 10 games and instead of enjoying that many will moan about the competition. As though folks do not recognize there are no top twenty teams.

Really??

Looking forward to more lists of bad things...great!!!

Tigertitan is on on this one.

(12-27-2012 05:05 PM)dexterreed Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 11:06 PM)memphis mania Wrote:  There are only a handful of schools that can go back to winning big after a big time coach like Calipari leaves and those are your 3-5 "blue blood" programs. Hell, look what happened to KY after Tubby Smith left. Some of you need to take a step back or two and look at the reality of the situation here. This basketball program is poised and positioned extremely well right now. Would have all liked to have a NCAA Tournament win in the last 3 years or beat a ranked opponent? Of course. But we have bounced back very nicely from the Cal departure, and are primed for big time success right now.

No offense but this sounds exactly like what people on here were saying two seasons ago. The fact of the matter is this group and Pastner have not delivered up to expectations. And I am weary of folks saying we should lower our expectations when we have failed to meet them all a month into the season. We are 7-3 now and with our schedule, I am still hopeful we can end up 25-6 going into CUSA tournament. That would meet my expectations.

This is worst case imo. We could very well win-out but I'm figuring two more losses 'just because' for 26-5 plus three Ws in the conference tournament for 29-5. Unfortunately, I think all that will get us is a 6-7 seed unless we just murder teams by 30-40 five games out of six....anything but the 8 or 9 seed though.

I really don't get people talking about winning out. UTEP has beaten us every year since 2009-10 including at home last year when they were terrible. SMU beat us two out of the last three years (with coach Doh.) Houston beat us twice. The only teams that haven't beaten us are Tulane and UAB. Does anyone think we're playing that much better basketball than we did the last three years? Or that 12th place (this year) is that much worse than 11th place (our normal spot) for C-USA?

People who have criticized TC for his outrageous posts and are now speculating about us going 16-0 in conference after the start we've had this year should seriously consider an online apology to the guy. We will, once again, need to win the tournament (away from home) to keep from sweating out selection Sunday. And anyone who wants to call me a miserable for stating the obvious please put some math behind your argument, including the probability for going undefeated in conference. That, I'd like to see.

(12-27-2012 06:33 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I really don't get people talking about winning out. UTEP has beaten us every year since 2009-10 including at home last year when they were terrible. SMU beat us two out of the last three years (with coach Doh.) Houston beat us twice. The only teams that haven't beaten us are Tulane and UAB. Does anyone think we're playing that much better basketball than we did the last three years? Or that 12th place (this year) is that much worse than 11th place (our normal spot) for C-USA?

People who have criticized TC for his outrageous posts and are now speculating about us going 16-0 in conference after the start we've had this year should seriously consider an online apology to the guy. We will, once again, need to win the tournament (away from home) to keep from sweating out selection Sunday. And anyone who wants to call me a miserable for stating the obvious please put some math behind your argument, including the probability for going undefeated in conference. That, I'd like to see.

Well the difference is we have a MUCH more physical frontline now and are a much deeper team that rebounds the ball now. And we are much more experienced AND CUSA sucks real bad this year.

So just pointing to the last two years is a straw man argument. We are a different and better team. Its just still early.



I expcect 1 loss at worst.

(12-27-2012 06:41 PM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  So just pointing to the last two years is a straw man argument. We are a different and better team. Its just still early.

I expcect 1 loss at worst.

Give me some of that Kool Aide, and oh yeah, ya left out the math.

By the way, a straw man argument is something you make up that isn't true so you can attack it and win. The last two years are what is called a precedent, and those are my grounds -- not a straw man argument by a long shot.

(12-27-2012 06:48 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 06:41 PM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  So just pointing to the last two years is a straw man argument. We are a different and better team. Its just still early.

I expcect 1 loss at worst.

Give me some of that Kool Aide, and oh yeah, ya left out the math.

By the way, a straw man argument is something you make up that isn't true so you can attack it and win. The last two years are what is called a precedent, and those are my grounds -- not a straw man argument by a long shot.

You can be a smart a** about it all day long. But the fact is we are much different team than the two previous years. No one in CUSA is going to pound us in the paint or on the boards or push us around inside. And we are no longer at the mercy of TB getting in foul trouble. Shaq, Black and DJ are gonna eat CUSA alive this year in the paint.

Not to mention the fact that the core is jr's and we have Geron Johnson as an added option at the point.

Totally different situation this year.

(12-27-2012 06:33 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I really don't get people talking about winning out. UTEP has beaten us every year since 2009-10 including at home last year when they were terrible. SMU beat us two out of the last three years (with coach Doh.) Houston beat us twice. The only teams that haven't beaten us are Tulane and UAB. Does anyone think we're playing that much better basketball than we did the last three years? Or that 12th place (this year) is that much worse than 11th place (our normal spot) for C-USA?

People who have criticized TC for his outrageous posts and are now speculating about us going 16-0 in conference after the start we've had this year should seriously consider an online apology to the guy. We will, once again, need to win the tournament (away from home) to keep from sweating out selection Sunday. And anyone who wants to call me a miserable for stating the obvious please put some math behind your argument, including the probability for going undefeated in conference. That, I'd like to see.

Here is your math...We were 6 points away from being 16-0 last year.