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"Jobs American's won't do"
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #1
"Jobs American's won't do"
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011...ine-1.html

Looks like that's another myth put to rest.

So, if someone's so concerned about the American worker, why aren't they furious at the current federal immigration policy, and the current administration's efforts to undermine states' controls?
03-11-2011 09:41 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #2
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.
03-11-2011 09:52 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.
03-11-2011 10:16 AM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #4
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
I had an interesting conversation with a vendor this week. They were explaining how they are working with companies moving their huge server farms to the Dakotas because of
  • An educated workforce
  • Low cost of living
  • Low cost of real estate
  • Lower utility costs
So certainly the first three bullets are not new. Educated (mostly HS and CC) Americans, working for less money in a low cost environment with strong infrastructure is a game changer, especially when compared to the server farms in the Bay Area and the East Coast. The jobs were not high tech / high paying, because those mostly went to the transferred in employees, but there were a fair amount of construction and maintenence jobs, and a fair number of office jobs as well.

Many of these companies have, or have plans to, locate call centers in the northern Plains as well, to take advantage of the educated workforce and the lower costs of living and wages.

But the forth bullet was most interesting.

The colder climates are better for server farms, because server farms generate massive amounts of heat and the buildings need to be kept very, very cold.

So, in the winter, the answer to cooling the server farms was to pump in the freezing Plains air via a simple fan network, and to simply open giant roof vents and let the remaining heat escape. They would capture some of the waste heat to keep the working areas warm.

These companies were able to have limited heating bills for 6 months of the year, and limited cooling bills for a couple warm summer months. The savings were staggering, considering the small utility footprint and the lack of HVAC. They even get green credits.

Now, these server farms are putting up windmills to help power the cooling fans for free. Spare electricty from the windmills will be used to supplement the constant power receieved from the utility.

Amazing actually. AMERICA F*CK YEAH!
03-11-2011 10:39 AM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #5
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 10:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So, in the winter, the answer to cooling the server farms was to pump in the freezing Plains air via a simple fan network, and to simply open giant roof vents and let the remaining heat escape. They would capture some of the waste heat to keep the working areas warm.

I was going to ask, tongue-in-cheek, if this was the driver. 03-lol

Good for them! 04-rock

There are win/win situations to be found all over. Economics provides a driver to find those, instead of government getting involved and trying to maintain a flawed status quo.
03-11-2011 11:58 AM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I think you can say that about any job. If I hit the lottery I'm not going back to work because I don't work for the pleasure of doing so.
03-11-2011 12:08 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #7
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"


Oh, Piss Boy....
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2011 01:54 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
03-11-2011 01:50 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #8
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?
03-11-2011 02:44 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 02:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?

No one, until you pay enough to make it worth their while. I don't think that's a reason to look the other way when illegals swarm over the border.
03-11-2011 03:15 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #10
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 03:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 02:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?

No one, until you pay enough to make it worth their while. I don't think that's a reason to look the other way when illegals swarm over the border.

So the answer is to artificially raise wages to discourage travelers from coming to America to find work and support their families? Are we willing to absorb the additional cost of goods and services associated with doing that? The mere thought of the government being involved in this type of wage setting makes me very uneasy.

Just how much longer are we going to poorly address this problem? As much as we would like to deny it...travelers are a large part of our economy. There must be a better way to handle this than the current failed policies.
03-11-2011 03:26 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #11
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 03:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 03:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 02:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?

No one, until you pay enough to make it worth their while. I don't think that's a reason to look the other way when illegals swarm over the border.

So the answer is to artificially raise wages to discourage travelers from coming to America to find work and support their families?

'Artificially'? Au contraire. Demand is exactly the market force that raises wages. No artificial manipulation about it, exactly the opposite.

Quote: Are we willing to absorb the additional cost of goods and services associated with doing that?

Yes, in a strong economy, of course.

Quote:The mere thought of the government being involved in this type of wage setting makes me very uneasy.

No one is invoking gov't involvement in the least. None at all.

Quote:Just how much longer are we going to poorly address this problem? As much as we would like to deny it...travelers are a large part of our economy.

A detrimental one. An artifact of other gov't intervention.

Quote: There must be a better way to handle this than the current failed policies.

Sure.
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2011 03:56 PM by DrTorch.)
03-11-2011 03:36 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #12
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
So you prefer a situation where illegals create an artificially low wage market.
03-11-2011 03:54 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #13
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 03:36 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 03:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 03:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 02:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?

No one, until you pay enough to make it worth their while. I don't think that's a reason to look the other way when illegals swarm over the border.

So the answer is to artificially raise wages to discourage travelers from coming to America to find work and support their families?

'Artificially'? Au contraire. Demand is exactly the market force that raises wages. No artificial manipulation about it, exactly the opposite.

Quote: Are we willing to absorb the additional cost of goods and services associated with doing that?

Yes, in a strong economy, of course.

Quote:The mere thought of the government being involved in this type of wage setting makes me very uneasy.

No one is invoking gov't involvement in the least. None at all.

Quote:Just how much longer are we going to poorly address this problem? As much as we would like to deny it...travelers are a large part of our economy.

A detrimental one. An artifact of other gov't intervention.

Quote: There must be a better way to handle this than the current failed policies.

Sure.

I agree demand does raise wages through competition for better workers.....in a paradigm without a governmentally set (and artificially raised) minimum wage. You know I have zero problem with abolishing this governmental interference in the marketplace. You and I both also know...that is not going to happen. So what is going to raise the wages for these jobs? I'd submit that it will be more artificially raised wages set by the government. A vicious cycle that never ends is that of all government intervention.
03-11-2011 04:17 PM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #14
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.
I actually agree with you. The unfortunate thing is that many of the people taking these jobs(many have a degree and/or training in another higher paying field) will never get out of these jobs once they are in.
03-12-2011 04:28 AM
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RobertN Offline
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RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-11-2011 03:26 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 03:15 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 02:44 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 10:16 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 09:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I don't really see this proving anything. It is the current economic problems that are making these people want these jobs...not the desire to have them.

I thought that was exactly the point. Economic need will drive people, even US citizens, to take jobs, even jobs that are dirty and hard.

That's been one argument supporting lax immigration, "There are jobs that US citizens just won't do."

That's not true.

OK..It is not true that in a piss poor economy with high unemployment that people will not take sh!tty jobs. Who takes the sh!tty jobs in good economy with low unemployment?

No one, until you pay enough to make it worth their while. I don't think that's a reason to look the other way when illegals swarm over the border.

So the answer is to artificially raise wages to discourage travelers from coming to America to find work and support their families? Are we willing to absorb the additional cost of goods and services associated with doing that? The mere thought of the government being involved in this type of wage setting makes me very uneasy.

Just how much longer are we going to poorly address this problem? As much as we would like to deny it...travelers are a large part of our economy. There must be a better way to handle this than the current failed policies.
Well, we could go your route and let only corporations...oops sorry, I mean free markets set the wages. I am sure they will be very generous in when it comes to pay. 03-lmfao
03-12-2011 04:46 AM
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RaiderATO Offline
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Post: #16
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-12-2011 04:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  The unfortunate thing is that many of the people taking these jobs(many have a degree and/or training in another higher paying field) will never get out of these jobs once they are in.

Only if they have no drive to better themselves. The Peter Principle is always in effect, no matter the job.

(03-12-2011 04:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, we could go your route and let only corporations...oops sorry, I mean free markets set the wages. I am sure they will be very generous in when it comes to pay. 03-lmfao

If they set it too high, they lose money. If they set it too low, they won't be able to hire anyone because their competitors will pay more. You will be paid what you're worth. We surely can't have that.
03-12-2011 07:24 AM
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Post: #17
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-12-2011 07:24 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 04:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  The unfortunate thing is that many of the people taking these jobs(many have a degree and/or training in another higher paying field) will never get out of these jobs once they are in.

Only if they have no drive to better themselves. The Peter Principle is always in effect, no matter the job.

(03-12-2011 04:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, we could go your route and let only corporations...oops sorry, I mean free markets set the wages. I am sure they will be very generous in when it comes to pay. 03-lmfao

If they set it too high, they lose money. If they set it too low, they won't be able to hire anyone because their competitors will pay more. You will be paid what you're worth. We surely can't have that.

Unless you're in Michigan and your plant moves to Mississippi or you're in Mississippi and your plant moves to Monterey. These moves are rarely driven by anything other than the availability of cheap labor. America deserves a middle class. Income disparity is at it's highest level since '29 while worker productivity is at an all time high.
03-12-2011 07:46 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #18
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-12-2011 07:46 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 07:24 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 04:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  The unfortunate thing is that many of the people taking these jobs(many have a degree and/or training in another higher paying field) will never get out of these jobs once they are in.

Only if they have no drive to better themselves. The Peter Principle is always in effect, no matter the job.

(03-12-2011 04:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, we could go your route and let only corporations...oops sorry, I mean free markets set the wages. I am sure they will be very generous in when it comes to pay. 03-lmfao

If they set it too high, they lose money. If they set it too low, they won't be able to hire anyone because their competitors will pay more. You will be paid what you're worth. We surely can't have that.

Unless you're in Michigan and your plant moves to Mississippi or you're in Mississippi and your plant moves to Monterey. These moves are rarely driven by anything other than the availability of cheap labor. America deserves a middle class. Income disparity is at it's highest level since '29 while worker productivity is at an all time high.

So the answer is to set wages by force in order to achieve parity? While we are at it let's just nationalize industry and achieve utopia.03-puke

I'd submit that government over regulation is also a cause of companies seeking to escape.
(This post was last modified: 03-12-2011 09:15 AM by Fo Shizzle.)
03-12-2011 09:14 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-12-2011 07:46 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  Unless you're in Michigan and your plant moves to Mississippi or you're in Mississippi and your plant moves to Monterey. These moves are rarely driven by anything other than the availability of cheap labor. America deserves a middle class. Income disparity is at it's highest level since '29 while worker productivity is at an all time high.

This is the sound byte that the left wants to sell us. Unfortunately, there are a couple of problems:
1. It's not true. Sure, it applies in some cases, where you're talking low-margin consumer goods, but not nearly as often as it the left wants us to believe. If it were true, Germany would be having the same problems we are, and they aren't. They're prospering by making the same sorts of top-quality, high-end, high-profitability products that we ought to be making here--instead of fretting about losing the shoe-sewing jobs to Thailand. There are other factors that drive the decisions on plant locations, and Germany is beating us there. One reason we don't understand this well is that it's easy to see when a plant moves to Mexico, but it's less visible when a new plant locates elsewhere rather than coming here in the first place.
2. Suppose hypothetically that it is true. What do we do about it? The left has no answer there.

I'm speaking from extensive experience. After working in strategic planning for a multi-national manufacturer of a high-tech product line used in the energy and medical sectors, I consulted companies on location decisions. The eye opener for me was a project to locate a new plant, where the decision came down to Wichita or northern France. Corporate really wanted Wichita, and there was pretty intense pressure on us to slant the decision that way. In the mid-to-late 80s, at the height of Reaganomics and with a socialist government in France, the tax advantages to locating in France were more than we could overcome. So corporate decided to assume that Reagan would fix the tax gap and overruled us. Until the president and his wife went to Wichita for a weekend of wining and dining before the award was to be announced. It snowed a bunch, Wichita didn't have adequate snow removal equipment, a bunch of events got canceled because nobody could get there, president and wife sat in their hotel room and ate beanie weenies all weekend, and wife told him that they weren't going anywhere that didn't have snow plows--so the plant went to France.

Corporations make plant siting decisions based on wages and other costs, productivity (a product of education, logistics, and infrastructure), taxes (which tend to be more easily quantifiable than other factors, and hence take on greater importance), proximity to suppliers and markets, regulatory hassles, and risks. The places with lowest wages tend to be lowest productivity and highest risk, so those tend to offset. We used to win a bunch of those, and that made us competitive despite higher wages. Germany is one of many countries beating us on those other things, and that's a big reason why they're net exporters and we're net importers.

And I think you mean Monterrey, not Monterey. Monterey's in California, and nobody's moving from Mississippi to California for lower wages.
03-12-2011 09:22 AM
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Mr. Peanut Offline
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Post: #20
RE: "Jobs American's won't do"
(03-12-2011 09:14 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 07:46 AM)Mr. Peanut Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 07:24 AM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  
(03-12-2011 04:28 AM)RobertN Wrote:  The unfortunate thing is that many of the people taking these jobs(many have a degree and/or training in another higher paying field) will never get out of these jobs once they are in.

Only if they have no drive to better themselves. The Peter Principle is always in effect, no matter the job.

(03-12-2011 04:46 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, we could go your route and let only corporations...oops sorry, I mean free markets set the wages. I am sure they will be very generous in when it comes to pay. 03-lmfao

If they set it too high, they lose money. If they set it too low, they won't be able to hire anyone because their competitors will pay more. You will be paid what you're worth. We surely can't have that.

Unless you're in Michigan and your plant moves to Mississippi or you're in Mississippi and your plant moves to Monterey. These moves are rarely driven by anything other than the availability of cheap labor. America deserves a middle class. Income disparity is at it's highest level since '29 while worker productivity is at an all time high.

So the answer is to set wages by force in order to achieve parity? While we are at it let's just nationalize industry and achieve utopia.03-puke

I'd submit that government over regulation is also a cause of companies seeking to escape.

Not at all. I would like to see corporations be good citizens and partner with government. Let's cut govenment spending, lets cut waste and fraud (like the cowboy poetry festival) and raise the tax rate back to Clinton era levels so we are prospering. More than tax breaks companies really need consumers with deep pockets. The american consumer still drives the world economy.
03-12-2011 09:54 AM
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