(11-04-2009 09:46 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 08:01 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  Given the context that seems like a pretty big indictment that Obama considers himself muslim. If he weren't, he wouldn't use the possessive so readily. That was a big one.

snip

Obama's reverence to the "Holy Koran" and ability to speak the words with precision, make it pretty clear he's versed in this religion.

Dude, with mucho respect this is the weakest thing I think I have ever seen you post here. As opposed to him trashing the Quran? Every major political office holder in this country tip-toes around any mention of the Quran! Why would the President of the United States of America be any different?

And with Obama's known reliance on a teleprompter, is him being versed really a surprise?

Like Obama, I've lived in Indonesia, so I am more versed in Islam than your regular Joe. Does Obama gain points by being ignorant of Islam, considering that in many ways certain elements of Islam are huge threats to the West?

This is purely POLITICAL, and part of Obama's FP direction. He is looking to placate the world with platitudes, none of this should be surprising nor frankly worrying as it pertains to a "secret Muslim agenda."

Obama is no more Muslim than your Aunt. I hold much more concern about Obama's association with Jeremiah Wright and how Wright's firebrand racism has molded Obama.

I simply don't understand all these flanking attacks on Obama the man. It is his policies that deserve our undivided attention.

Dude. Give it up. THe guy(and many others on here) lack knowlege. He can't and will never understand.

(11-03-2009 06:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Is there anyone other than Muslims in this country sitting this war out? Well, some of them aren't sitting it out, they're just on the other side.

(11-04-2009 10:13 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(11-03-2009 06:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Is there anyone other than Muslims in this country sitting this war out? Well, some of them aren't sitting it out, they're just on the other side.

There are muslims in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force all of the US.

(11-04-2009 10:29 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 10:13 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(11-03-2009 06:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Is there anyone other than Muslims in this country sitting this war out? Well, some of them aren't sitting it out, they're just on the other side.

There are muslims in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force all of the US.

And serving honorably as policemen, firemen, paramedics, elected officals, business owners and neighbors.

This though does not excuse what in my mind is the inexcusable lack of American Muslim condemnation of Islamic terrorism.

(11-05-2009 09:43 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 10:29 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 10:13 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(11-03-2009 06:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Is there anyone other than Muslims in this country sitting this war out? Well, some of them aren't sitting it out, they're just on the other side.

There are muslims in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force all of the US.

And serving honorably as policemen, firemen, paramedics, elected officals, business owners and neighbors.
This though does not excuse what in my mind is the inexcusable lack of American Muslim condemnation of Islamic terrorism.

I don't really believe that we non-muslims have made a legitimate effort to reach out to them.
I believe that a key (if not THE key) to defeating radical muslims is to make moderate muslims succeed.
That's from the perspective of having spent a bit of time in the middle east.
If I had been Shrub, on the weekend following 9/11, I would have made it a point to worship publicly in a mosque on Friday, a synagogue on Saturday, and a church on Sunday.
That's assuming, of course, that the other changes I would have made if I had been Shrub would have failed to prevent 9/11 (and I think that's a bad assumption).

Owl, do you really believe the onus is on the victim to reach out to the attacker?

My guess is that any immediate subrogation to Islam after 9/11 would have been seen as remarkably weak by the Muslim world.

(11-05-2009 09:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If I had been Shrub, on the weekend following 9/11, I would have made it a point to worship publicly in a mosque on Friday, a synagogue on Saturday, and a church on Sunday.
That's assuming, of course, that the other changes I would have made if I had been Shrub would have failed to prevent 9/11 (and I think that's a bad assumption).

I went to a mosque shortly after 9/11 to show that I didn't want there to be any backlash towards Muslims. I found it to be a massive proselytization effort.

Your last statement is pretty curious - short of announcing that troops would be withdrawn from Saudi in 2001 and issuing a public apology to Sadaam, I'm interested to know what you think may have prevented 9/11. Unless I misread your statement, you're saying that you are pretty sure that changes you would have made would have prevented 9/11.

(11-05-2009 10:40 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Owl, do you really believe the onus is on the victim to reach out to the attacker?
My guess is that any immediate subrogation to Islam after 9/11 would have been seen as remarkably weak by the Muslim world.

I'm not aware of an "onus" to be on anyone.
And if I don't like the results I'm getting, I'm much more inclined to change to a different strategy than to debate where the "onus" lies.
I'm not aware of any "subrogation" in the approach I advocate.
I've said it before, there are two rules that will stand is in good stead when dealing with Muslim Arabs:
1. Respect them.
2. Demand that they respect you in return.
Bush violated rule 1. Obama is violating rule 2. Neither is good to break.

(11-05-2009 11:17 AM)I45owl Wrote:  I went to a mosque shortly after 9/11 to show that I didn't want there to be any backlash towards Muslims. I found it to be a massive proselytization effort.
Your last statement is pretty curious - short of announcing that troops would be withdrawn from Saudi in 2001 and issuing a public apology to Sadaam, I'm interested to know what you think may have prevented 9/11. Unless I misread your statement, you're saying that you are pretty sure that changes you would have made would have prevented 9/11.

I don't think Muslims would have a visit by a president as a proselytizing opportunity.

As for preventing 9/11, on the morning of 9/12 we were able to identify--correctly--the 19 hijackers by name. That has to mean that we had sufficient information in the system to have prevented it if people had been talking. Cancelling the Gorelick memo would have helped; I would have signed the executive order doing so on the podium during the inauguration speech. Then I would have made sure that information was being shared and that every reasonable problem was being followed up on, and aggressively so. The air force should have been scrambled immediately when the IFF transponders quit working on those planes. Don't know where to scramble them TO? How about the two most obvious choices--NYC and DC? Boston Logan had repeatedly failed security tests in the prior months. Fix that problem. Those are a few thoughts.

I'm not sure what Saddam had to do with it, and I certainly would never have apologized. See my two rules for dealing with Muslim Arabs, above. I do agree that continuing presence in Saudi was a problem, and we need to address this going forward. Unfortunately, a thing called oil limits our options until we can wean ourselves onto somethng else. Before we can do that, we need that something else.

(11-05-2009 02:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think Muslims would have a visit by a president as a proselytizing opportunity.

I could see CAIR (I think they organized a national visit-the-mosque-day) using such a visit as part of a proselytization effort.

(11-05-2009 02:56 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As for preventing 9/11, on the morning of 9/12 we were able to identify--correctly--the 19 hijackers by name. That has to mean that we had sufficient information in the system to have prevented it if people had been talking. Cancelling the Gorelick memo would have helped; I would have signed the executive order doing so on the podium during the inauguration speech. Then I would have made sure that information was being shared and that every reasonable problem was being followed up on, and aggressively so. The air force should have been scrambled immediately when the IFF transponders quit working on those planes. Don't know where to scramble them TO? How about the two most obvious choices--NYC and DC? Boston Logan had repeatedly failed security tests in the prior months. Fix that problem. Those are a few thoughts.

I'm not sure what Saddam had to do with it, and I certainly would never have apologized. See my two rules for dealing with Muslim Arabs, above. I do agree that continuing presence in Saudi was a problem, and we need to address this going forward. Unfortunately, a thing called oil limits our options until we can wean ourselves onto somethng else. Before we can do that, we need that something else.

Ok. Given your comment about reaching out to Islamic leaders (which I agree with), I thought you intended policy changes that would have discouraged al Qaeda rather than enhanced security efforts. w.r.t. Sadaam - many of al Qaeda's rallying points during the 1990s centered on US involvement with Iraq. Absent US/UN containment of Iraq and specifically US troops in Saudi Arabia, I don't think 9/11 and many other attacks against the US in the 1990s would have happened. No matter how many kings Obama can bow to or how many speeches he can give, nothing but outright appeasement will take the US off of al Qaeda's target list, and I don't think appeasement would work very well.

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(11-04-2009 10:29 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(11-04-2009 10:13 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(11-03-2009 06:48 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Is there anyone other than Muslims in this country sitting this war out? Well, some of them aren't sitting it out, they're just on the other side.

There are muslims in the Army, Marine Corps, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force all of the US.

And as today shows once again, this pu$$y-footing around the subject of Islam has to stop and they have to be watched closely and kept on a short lease. And I'm not apologizing to the supposedly good ones out there. There are far to many animals amongst them and they do nothing about it.