(08-07-2009 11:38 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:29 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, for one thing he said "probably". Even if he didn't, he is absolutely correct. THose big mouths at the the town halls ARE mostly those that are "birthers". How can you even deny that? If you don't think they are you aren't living in the real world.

I don't understand why they would WANT to deny it. Most of them seem fully supportive of the "birther" theory. Wouldn't they say "Damn right these people are birthers!!!!"
Or, are they now starting to realize what an embarrasment the birthers actually are to the party, and are now trying to distance themselves from them?
But I think i see the difficulty... It's established that much of the foundation of the "birther" movement lies in a very racist element of society, so you can't very well say "yeah, we're for the birthers!!! But there is NO racial element to this at all!!!" with a straight face.
Well, they CAN say that, I suppose, and I'm sure they will, but it's total BS.
Not that spouting BS troubles these folks in the slightest.

If you guys keep telling yourselves that, we're going to have big problems. There probably are some birthers in each of these gatherings. I don't think they're anywhere near the majority, certainly not at the event I attended, and I will see how things turn out at future events. I think the majority are so angry about the whole situation that they will support anyone who is criticizing Obama, no matter how silly the reason.

But I do think attempts at any level to marginalize the criticism as "racists" or "birthers" will do nothing but increase the anger of those who are not. And I think the vast majority are not.

Until both sides stop being so focused on getting across their point of view, and look instead at figuring out how actually to make things better, I see no reason why this situation will do anything but continue to deteriorate.

The right needs to admit that the current system is not perfect, and that change is needed. The left needs to admit that the need for change doesn't mean that any change is good, and that the changes they are proposing will do more harm than good. Then both sides need to set about figuring out what the right changes would be. I would still suggest that the leaders of both parties take a plane trip to France (if the $67 million Gulfstreams aren't here yet, they can always fly coach) over the August recess. Look at what they have, and figure out how to do that here. That's not the direction either side is pointing right now.

(08-07-2009 11:26 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:02 AM)niuhuskie84 Wrote:  That kind of behavior is an embarrassment, and yet these are the folks the GOP are latching on to.

I'll make you, Obama, Pelosi, Reid and everyone else a deal:

If you don't like people like this, then leave them alone. Don't take their taxes, don't take their time, don't take their children, and don't take any of their resources.

Leave them out of your plans for nationalized health care, let them find their own banks and buy their own cars.

Since they embarass you so much, then do the right thing and distance yourself from them. Laugh at them from your university classrooms, mock them on CNN, have your fill. BUT, hands off their money, time and persons.

Fair enough?

So the south is going to secede again? You little pinhead! Get out of my country!(said in the Glen Beck screaming on the phone voice)

(08-07-2009 11:46 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  They know that they will be the first to feel the effects of rationing.

What, you mean like the rationing that exists now where your employer decides what coverage to offer you? Or when you have a life threatening illness and the insurance company decides that they're not going to pay for it?

(08-07-2009 11:49 AM)niuhuskie84 Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:46 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  They know that they will be the first to feel the effects of rationing.

What, you mean like the rationing that exists now where your employer decides what coverage to offer you? Or when you have a life threatening illness and the insurance company decides that they're not going to pay for it?

Explain to me how the proposed approach will make any of that better.

(08-07-2009 11:49 AM)niuhuskie84 Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:46 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  They know that they will be the first to feel the effects of rationing.

What, you mean like the rationing that exists now where your employer decides what coverage to offer you? Or when you have a life threatening illness and the insurance company decides that they're not going to pay for it?

I'm not denying that rationing doesn't happen now. I'm a realist and I've fought that battle with an insurance company on a personal level (and won) with a dying spouse. But it pales in comparison to what will happen when yet another government run program turns out to be far more expensive than D.C. pinheads said it would be and the cost savings are non-existent. Along with raising taxes, the result will be the denial of services to those nearing the end of their lives, all in the name of saving money. Those decision should be left to the families involved and their doctors - not some career bureaucrat bean counter.

http://www.examiner.com/x-11804-Health-C...-universal

A quick summary of where we could be headed if both sides would pull their heads out of their @$$#$. Universal care without government involvement. Anybody here think this isn't better than either (a) what we have now or (b) what the Obamacrats are proposing (in any of the myriad versions)?

(08-07-2009 11:39 AM)RobertN Wrote:  How much of what? How many town hall meetings are being interupted by paranoid wackos? Lots. Just watch MSNBC. They show new "protests" everyday. The commentary may be biased(in your opinion) but the videos don't lie.

Robert you are really so STUPID that you equate the Birther Bunch with the People who are Truly and Honestly Pissed off about how they are getting Highway Robbed by some Noob in the Oval Office that is a 21 Karat Lying Cheat.

And in fact and for the 99th time, OBAMA HELD DUAL CITIZENSHIP !!!!!!!

That makes him Ineligible all on its own whether he was born in Hawaii or in the Oval Office of the White House.

And YOU, you multi-colored TERD, you loved it when those Freaks went to the White House and Tossed Shoes over the White House Fence to give Bush a Sh'tty Send off on 20 Jan 09.

How do you Uphold One Action as Great, while Pissing on the Real Americans Being Pissed off as being bad ???

I mean I know you are a Brainwashed RETARD, but you SHOULD be able to at least see beyond this blatant and open foolishness.

You guys are some lost souls man !!!!!!

.

(08-07-2009 12:12 PM)Tripster Wrote:  Robert you are really so STUPID that you equate the Birther Bunch with the People who are Truly and Honestly Pissed off about how they are getting Highway Robbed by some Noob in the Oval Office that is a 21 Karat Lying Cheat.

And in fact and for the 99th time, OBAMA HELD DUAL CITIZENSHIP !!!!!!!

That makes him Ineligible all on its own whether he was born in Hawaii or in the Oval Office of the White House.

So.... why should you care if the "Birther Bunch" is equated to the folks disrupting these rallies? If they are right on Obama's birth, and right on health care, why hesitate in equating them?

(08-07-2009 11:46 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:42 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:38 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And that does not support your conclusion that anyone is latching onto this.

People here are latching onto it, so I assume others are as well.

When I posted the links to the disruptions and chaos in Tampa last night, the general consensus from the right-wing posters here was "It's about time!!!"

They embrace this kinda stuff.

What they are not realizing is that the mushy middle - where most people are - are going to look at this stuff with revulsion and it's going to ultimately damage their arguments.

Uhhh, no. The "mushy middle" as you put it (independents) are shown by numerous polls to be running from this healthcare proposal in droves. Between the elderly and independents, if you don't have them, you lose. Even members of AARP are up in arms and beginning to revolt against their leadership. They feel like they have been sold out by an ideology driven leadership. They know that they will be the first to feel the effects of rationing.

Because they are believing the rights scare tactics. THe health insurance industry is doing a good job scaring people that the Democrats bills are going to "kill old people", are "socialist" etc. With the amount of money they are throwing at this, it is understandable that what is actually in the bill is lost.

(08-07-2009 11:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  http://www.examiner.com/x-11804-Health-C...-universal

A quick summary of where we could be headed if both sides would pull their heads out of their @$$#$. Universal care without government involvement. Anybody here think this isn't better than either (a) what we have now or (b) what the Obamacrats are proposing (in any of the myriad versions)?

I suspect the competing special interests will never allow something like that to happen in the US.

(08-07-2009 12:20 PM)RobertN Wrote:  Because they are believing the rights scare tactics. THe health insurance industry is doing a good job scaring people that the Democrats bills are going to "kill old people", are "socialist" etc. With the amount of money they are throwing at this, it is understandable that what is actually in the bill is lost.

That's exactly right, but I think once people start watching these loons making asses of themselves at the town hall meetings, they will turn away from them - much like they did when the Palin/McCain rallies started to get fugly.

And overall, the support is there for major health care reform. Obama needs to come on national TV and explain his plan again very starkly and simply.

of course, those who are already convinced he's the anti-christ and wants to kill old people won't believe him regardless. But the majority of Americans - those who voted for him - will listen.

(08-07-2009 12:20 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:57 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  http://www.examiner.com/x-11804-Health-C...-universal
A quick summary of where we could be headed if both sides would pull their heads out of their @$$#$. Universal care without government involvement. Anybody here think this isn't better than either (a) what we have now or (b) what the Obamacrats are proposing (in any of the myriad versions)?

I suspect the competing special interests will never allow something like that to happen in the US.

And that's the problem right now. The debate has been taken over by the special interests ON BOTH SIDES.

But it's better than anything either side is proposing. And a heck of a lot simpler.

(08-07-2009 11:48 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:38 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:29 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Well, for one thing he said "probably". Even if he didn't, he is absolutely correct. THose big mouths at the the town halls ARE mostly those that are "birthers". How can you even deny that? If you don't think they are you aren't living in the real world.

I don't understand why they would WANT to deny it. Most of them seem fully supportive of the "birther" theory. Wouldn't they say "Damn right these people are birthers!!!!"
Or, are they now starting to realize what an embarrasment the birthers actually are to the party, and are now trying to distance themselves from them?
But I think i see the difficulty... It's established that much of the foundation of the "birther" movement lies in a very racist element of society, so you can't very well say "yeah, we're for the birthers!!! But there is NO racial element to this at all!!!" with a straight face.
Well, they CAN say that, I suppose, and I'm sure they will, but it's total BS.
Not that spouting BS troubles these folks in the slightest.

............
But I do think attempts at any level to marginalize the criticism as "racists" or "birthers" will do nothing but increase the anger of those who are not. And I think the vast majority are not.

;;;;;;;

The right needs to admit that the current system is not perfect, and that change is needed. The left needs to admit that the need for change doesn't mean that any change is good, .....".

100% AGREE.... The biggest problem in the system is that consumers do NOT shop. The reason they don't shop is NOT because Americans are not good shoppers it is that their costs are paid by a 3rd party. People who are paid by benefits have NO incentive to hold costs in line. The legal sytem feeds into this w/ doctors ordering many services/tests just protect against possible lawsuits.

BTW, employer paid benefits / health insurance (not care) were a result of the government imposing wage controls on employers/employees. So business to lure & retain better employees added benefits to avoid government impose controls.....This surge started in the 40's.......... IMO, one of the fixes among many ....people who receive employer provided benefits s/b taxed on the USE of services.

Again I agree w/ OWL...the system needs fixing . What is being proposed is not cost effective it will put the country in a bigger trick bag and we will end up with poorer care. WE NEED BETTER,

(08-07-2009 11:34 AM)niuhuskie84 Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 11:17 AM)Tripster Wrote:  Well when you have been held down and Double-Standarded for Decades in almost Defining Voiceless Silence, there is a Time When the Kettle is gonna blow, AND IT HAS.

LOL. I guess being "held down" only counts outside the years of 1861-1865, 1869-1877, 1877-1881, 1881-1885, 1889-1893, 1897-1901, 1901-1909, 1909-1913, 1921-1923, 1923-1929, 1929-1933, 1953-1961, 1969-1974, 1974-1977, 1981-1989, 1989-1993, and 2001-2009

LIKE I SAID "DENSE BOY", Whether In Power or NOT, Conservatives HAVE ALWAYS been taught to be Polite and Quiet and not Hurt the Liberals Feelings and that has caused an Exploding Build Up of Pressure and Emotion that is Gushing Out like Niagara Falls.

We have had enough of being Mr. Nice Guy and I don't care how any Republican President Acted, THIS IS NOT ABOUT F'CKING "REPULICANS" .........

THIS IS ABOUT "CONSERVATIVES" !!!!!! Republicans and Conservative ARE NOT THE SAME THINGS Lead Head.

We are tired and we don't want some Pay-Me-Off Chicago Political NOOB that is a Hack, force feeding his Ideal of a New Obamaic Socialistic Utopia onto us.

Either Learn the Terms, Learn the Differences, or STFU.

As Conservative as I am, I know that not all Democrats are Liberals - - the least you Twids could do is realize the same in reverse and realize that All Conservatives ARE NOT "ALWAYS" Republicans.

I mean this is less than Politics 101 and you guys just can't get a grasp of the concept.

Drink V8 instead of all that fonky Kool-Aid and maybe your heads would clear up a tad.

.

(08-07-2009 12:37 PM)Tripster Wrote:  LIKE I SAID "DENSE BOY", Whether In Power or NOT, Conservatives HAVE ALWAYS been taught to be Polite and Quiet and not Hurt the Liberals Feelings

Just when I think I've read it all.

Ever heard of Dick Cheney?

The party of the right-wing noise machine? Boss Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, Fox Noise?

Did you watch the GOP convention, the Palin/McCain rallies?

The GOP is the party of Karl Rove, architect of the scorched-earth strategy of divide and conquer.

The rightwingers are used to getting their way, and for 8 years under Bush they did. Now they aren't anymore, and they don't like someone else being in control.... They are getting pissy, and think they have a right to dictate to the rest of us.

Well guess what: elections have consequences.

Are we ever going to hold people accountable for playing the race card? Paul Krugman is a race-baiting POS!!!! He's Finished!!!

(08-07-2009 12:57 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Are we ever going to hold people accountable for playing the race card?

Good question... let's start with Glenn Beck, who called the President of the United States a racist on national television.

(08-07-2009 12:47 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 12:37 PM)Tripster Wrote:  LIKE I SAID "DENSE BOY", Whether In Power or NOT, Conservatives HAVE ALWAYS been taught to be Polite and Quiet and not Hurt the Liberals Feelings

Just when I think I've read it all.

Ever heard of Dick Cheney?

The party of the right-wing noise machine? Boss Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Anne Coulter, Fox Noise?

Did you watch the GOP convention, the Palin/McCain rallies?

The GOP is the party of Karl Rove, architect of the scorched-earth strategy of divide and conquer.

The rightwingers are used to getting their way, and for 8 years under Bush they did. Now they aren't anymore, and they don't like someone else being in control.... They are getting pissy, and think they have a right to dictate to the rest of us.

Well guess what: elections have consequences.

Rush Limbaugh got started as a small time Conservative Radio Show in 1987 .... wow such a long time ago.

Dick Cheney just really showed up in the 1980's as heavily steeped in the inner political circle ..... Ancient History

Sean Hannity hasn't even celebrated 10 Years in his Present Status .... too far back for me to remember.

Anne Coulter - - same time frame as Hannity .... Old man, Really Old.

AND let us discuss the Fox Network .....

1980's brings a lone new TV Network called FOX .... Johnny Carson owns about half of FOX but is basically a Silent Partner, but Constantly makes Cute Jokes about The FOX Network on the Tonight Show that were just the right kind to get people Interested Into Tuning Into the FOX Channel (a single lone Channel with no Side Feeds) AND IT WORKED !!!!!!

FOX tells people what is REAL and they don't hold anything back - - I watched FOX Evolve and I know from whence it came old son ....

If I had to sit thru more than an hour of the MSM and all the sugar-smack sticky gooey fooey Obamaic Cotton Candy, I would be heaving like a Drunken Sailor

WOW !!!!!! Absolutely FANTASTIC Politics for over 200 Years and even earlier and we are Dwelling on a 20'ish year span of time.

Well Hell Boy !!!!! You just answered you own question ..... Conservatives have only been attempting to break out of that Goodie Two Shoes Crap for about 20 Years of over 200 Years of Politics.

But since a lot of you are only about 20, and don't remember 8-Track Tapes and 78 Sized Records or Doctors Making House Calls, 20 Years IS Ancient History for you isn't it.

What a group you dudes are .... Obama-igog Demigods.

Must be a wonderful life in Ignorant Communist Bliss.

.

(08-07-2009 01:03 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(08-07-2009 12:57 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Are we ever going to hold people accountable for playing the race card?

Good question... let's start with Glenn Beck, who called the President of the United States a racist on national television.

Who played the race card saying the police "acted stupidly". And never apologized for it.

And what college professor played the race card when confronted by police at a seemingly crime scene? And never apologized for it.

Maybe Glen Beck has a point that you blindly refuse to see.

You are plugged into Matrix.

Obama sits in a racist church for 20 years and claims he never heard those type remarks, BTW as he resigned from that church.... a little late Barry....

Obama nominates to the Supreme Court a nominee who bases her wisdom on her ethnicity.

To paraphrase Krugman maybe Obama is just an "angry black guy" ....