(02-19-2009 07:49 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:45 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:42 AM)jh Wrote:  Well it's a good thing noone is talking about opening up an all black college then. As has already been noted, Grambling doesn't restrict it's admissions.

Name me a college that restricts it to white people.

Grambling has never restricted it's admissions ever, Ole Miss can't say that.

What does THAT have to do with today? Isn't this the same argument politicians make?? It's okay for Democrats to waste money because Republicans did it in the last administration... gee, i thought that was why we voted those guys out?

Look... Here's my question. I have no problem with people celebrating their heritage... but i'd like to celebrate mine as well. I can participate in a celebration of African, or South American, or Asian culture, but it really holds no connection for me.... just as celebrations of MY heritage don't hold a connection for many of them. I didn't grow up in the inner city... or from a broken home... or around gangs (at least that I was aware of)... so much of certain musical cultures hold no connection for me. I also didn't grow up on a farm, or driving a pick-up... so before anyone goes there, I am no less connected to much country or goth rock than much rap or hip/hop. As my ancestors were more likely to be the uninformed perpetrators of racism/segregation than the innocent victims, I am more attracted to churches that preach the values of inclusion and of service to those less fortunate rather than one that appeals to those seeking to ease the burdens of racism/poverty. I am also a former athlete... and a bit of a nerd (I DID go to Rice after all). I CAN hang around with dumb jocks, but I prefer the conversation with intelligent ones... and I don't care what color they are.

While there is certainly a group of people from all races with which I can relate, if you draw circles of people, the vast majority of the people in my group are going to have similar cultural and socio-economic backgrounds to mine... which means, will look more like me because their ancestors came from europe... and they grew up middle class in the suburbs...

Is this what we are calling racism? A shared heritage/experience? Am I racist because I can't relate to growing up black in the inner city surrounded by gangs? Why isn't THAT person racist because he can't relate to growing up white in the suburbs (or on a military base) surrounded by baseball parks and playgrounds? Why is it white racism because I don't want to go to a predominantly black school or church and not black racism because they don't want to go to a predominantly white school or church? Why isn't it just about seeking to fit in??

People (and even animals) seek the comfort of sameness. Look at the animal kingdom. It's not about racism until you exclude someone. If someone wants to be more like me and join my group?? Come on in... the water is fine. If you want to bring some added flavor to my world... LOVE it... but, if you want to turn MY world into YOUR world, then we have a problem. If I wanted YOUR world, I'd move into your neighborhood and join YOUR group.

of COURSE its a fine line, and some in my world would seek to keep others out... and they are the problem... but it seems to me that Ole Miss (and most others) stopped that... so why do we keep bringing it up?


Mump... I'm with you on this, and I hope you know I respect your comments and opinions... I would NEVER ask someone to turn their back on their heritage, or on those who helped them when others would not. That is a CHOICE people must make for themselves... and I support their right to make those choices without being labeled racist. A black man can go to Grambling and a white man to Ole Miss without being racist.... though I will admit that a racist black man or racist white isn't likely to choose the other school. We shouldn't condemn those who make positive decisions simply because others reach the same conclusion for the wrong reasons.

Whoa, when did I say anything about HBU's? I have no problem with them as I believe in the freedom of association.

(02-19-2009 11:46 AM)uhmump95 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 09:02 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:49 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:45 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:42 AM)jh Wrote:  Well it's a good thing noone is talking about opening up an all black college then. As has already been noted, Grambling doesn't restrict it's admissions.

Name me a college that restricts it to white people.

Grambling has never restricted it's admissions ever, Ole Miss can't say that.

What year is it? What year was it that James Meredith was admitted to Ole Miss? Ahh, 4 decades ago? Get over it.

A lot of black people have relatives who went to HBUs when they could NOT attend a "normal" university. Asking black people to turn their back on HBUs because today they are not "needed" is the same as asking a white southerner to turn his back on his family's Confederate history because they lost the war and he should just get over it.

Think about it........

Black people have already turned their backs on HBCUs. Turns out when you offer young people equality, they end up taking you up on it.

Think about it.......

(02-19-2009 07:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  You're only looking at things through 2009 glasses. Schools, television channels, NAACP, UNCF, and Affirmative action are all remnants of past societal ills. Everyone was created to give minorities opportunities that were not present at the time. Some of these have been around for over 100 years. It's very difficult to just eliminate some of them. So the analogy is not comparable. Most American colleges are "historically white colleges", and Bravo= WEC

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton haven't been around for over 100 years - it just seems like it. Minorities do have advantages that non-minorities don't have. For one thing, big companies give them preference when hiring so they can show how diverse they are. Look at Obama, everyone praised him because he's black. Who praised McC because he was white? If Obama wasn't black do you thing he would have been elected?

(02-19-2009 12:00 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Why can whites not "celebrate being white"? For at least the last several centuries they have much to be proud of, why is it that they can't say that out loud?

To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

(02-19-2009 09:09 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Just last week ( last Sat. to be exact ) I take my wife out for Valentine's Day. We go to an Applebee's. We put our name on a list. We are told it's a thirty minute wait so we take a seat. 20 minutes into it we hear a server tell the hostess they have a table for two. Just then a young black couple came in, the hostess mouths, are you a party of two. The guy nods yes. She seats them.

If I remember correctly, several years ago Denny's did the same thing to a black couple - made them wait longer than whites. They complained to the press and it became a national story. Denny's issued a national apology, donations to black causes were made, and so on.

Take your story to the media.......oh wait, you're a white dude, no one cares if you got screwed.

(02-19-2009 12:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  You're only looking at things through 2009 glasses. Schools, television channels, NAACP, UNCF, and Affirmative action are all remnants of past societal ills. Everyone was created to give minorities opportunities that were not present at the time. Some of these have been around for over 100 years. It's very difficult to just eliminate some of them. So the analogy is not comparable. Most American colleges are "historically white colleges", and Bravo= WEC

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton haven't been around for over 100 years - it just seems like it. Minorities do have advantages that non-minorities don't have. For one thing, big companies give them preference when hiring so they can show how diverse they are. Look at Obama, everyone praised him because he's black. Who praised McC because he was white? If Obama wasn't black do you thing he would have been elected?

While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, I think it demeans your argument when you ask if he would have been elected if black. He may have gotten more blacks to vote, but as 90+% have historically voted Democrat regardless of the race of the candidate, I think that may be unfair to say that he was elected simply because he was black. I certainly didn't vote AGAINST him because of his color.

As someone doing frequent interviews, I MUST say that I have no doubt that it doesn't help me that I can't say I'm a minority group... but I doubt if I could say authoritatively that the mandated advantages in one area outweigh the historical advantages in others.

To the original point... 2009 is the only thing we can impact... and organizations designed to help people in 1960 need to adapt as well... even if that means changing their names, or dissolving one entity only to take up the fight in a similar one.

Most American Colleges were also historically male... and there WERE women's colleges.... in fact, there still are a few single sex colleges, aren't there?

How does that significantly negatively impact the admissions opportunity for a woman today? If you want to say that they were more likely raise in a family of college educated people and thus more likely to value education... at the margin I'd agree with you... but after a generation or so, women regularly went to college. iirc, women generally score better than men. At SOME point, the historical differences become relatively meaningless to todays world.

SMN said: To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

Well it is associated with the Klan to celebrate the fact that white people are superior, and it's also considered racist if a black person starts to talk about how we are superior. Both tend to rub me the wrong way. In my hometowns in the US and Canada we've always had people celebrate being Irish, German, Jewish, and English, which are nationalities and not races. The only reason black people really celebrate as a race is because the majority of us have no idea where our ancestors came from. If we did we'd be celebrating being Ghanian or Ivoirian just as the Haitians and Jamaicans do. But before I get off track I just want to say that it's ok to celebrate where you've come from but we all need to celebrate or equality as American citizens first.

(02-19-2009 01:05 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  SMN said: To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

Well it is associated with the Klan to celebrate the fact that white people are superior, and it's also considered racist if a black person starts to talk about how we are superior. Both tend to rub me the wrong way. In my hometowns in the US and Canada we've always had people celebrate being Irish, German, Jewish, and English, which are nationalities and not races. The only reason black people really celebrate as a race is because the majority of us have no idea where our ancestors came from. If we did we'd be celebrating being Ghanian or Ivoirian just as the Haitians and Jamaicans do. But before I get off track I just want to say that it's ok to celebrate where you've come from but we all need to celebrate or equality as American citizens first.

nomad, I understand your point, but I NEVER celebrate the fact that I'm part Italian. I consider myself an American and all that other stuff is just a waste of time.

(02-19-2009 09:02 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:49 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:45 AM)Rebel Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:42 AM)jh Wrote:  Well it's a good thing noone is talking about opening up an all black college then. As has already been noted, Grambling doesn't restrict it's admissions.

Name me a college that restricts it to white people.

Grambling has never restricted it's admissions ever, Ole Miss can't say that.

What year is it? What year was it that James Meredith was admitted to Ole Miss? Ahh, 4 decades ago? Get over it.

Exactly my point. The whole reason Grambling, Jackson St exist is because Ole Miss and LSU restricted admissions. One is a direct reaction to the other. Now that the ball is in motion, it's not easy to close those schools.

(02-19-2009 12:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  You're only looking at things through 2009 glasses. Schools, television channels, NAACP, UNCF, and Affirmative action are all remnants of past societal ills. Everyone was created to give minorities opportunities that were not present at the time. Some of these have been around for over 100 years. It's very difficult to just eliminate some of them. So the analogy is not comparable. Most American colleges are "historically white colleges", and Bravo= WEC

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton haven't been around for over 100 years - it just seems like it. Minorities do have advantages that non-minorities don't have. For one thing, big companies give them preference when hiring so they can show how diverse they are. Look at Obama, everyone praised him because he's black. Who praised McC because he was white? If Obama wasn't black do you thing he would have been elected?

Do you know which group benefits most from affirmative action? I'll give you a hint, they are missing something "down there".

(02-19-2009 12:40 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:00 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Why can whites not "celebrate being white"? For at least the last several centuries they have much to be proud of, why is it that they can't say that out loud?

To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

You guys are killing me. We are about to have the biggest "celebrate being white" day next month. I'll buy you a Killians to remind you.

Affirmative Action along with the NAACP and UNCF was needed back then, but as someone has said before; they need to start slowly slipping it away or adapting as we can trust employers to actually make the good decisions.

(02-19-2009 01:27 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  You're only looking at things through 2009 glasses. Schools, television channels, NAACP, UNCF, and Affirmative action are all remnants of past societal ills. Everyone was created to give minorities opportunities that were not present at the time. Some of these have been around for over 100 years. It's very difficult to just eliminate some of them. So the analogy is not comparable. Most American colleges are "historically white colleges", and Bravo= WEC

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton haven't been around for over 100 years - it just seems like it. Minorities do have advantages that non-minorities don't have. For one thing, big companies give them preference when hiring so they can show how diverse they are. Look at Obama, everyone praised him because he's black. Who praised McC because he was white? If Obama wasn't black do you thing he would have been elected?

Do you know which group benefits most from affirmative action? I'll give you a hint, they are missing something "down there".

And why do women need an advantage, are they inferior, too? What the politically correct folks are saying is that the white man is superior and the field needs to be leveled. Who's the real racist?

(02-19-2009 01:35 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:40 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:00 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Why can whites not "celebrate being white"? For at least the last several centuries they have much to be proud of, why is it that they can't say that out loud?

To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

You guys are killing me. We are about to have the biggest "celebrate being white" day next month. I'll buy you a Killians to remind you.

St Patty's Day isn't a celebration about being white.

We're all Irish on that day baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(02-19-2009 01:17 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 01:05 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  SMN said: To celebrate anything white is racist because it excludes all other races. To be proud of being white is racist and you'll be associated with the Klan.

Well it is associated with the Klan to celebrate the fact that white people are superior, and it's also considered racist if a black person starts to talk about how we are superior. Both tend to rub me the wrong way. In my hometowns in the US and Canada we've always had people celebrate being Irish, German, Jewish, and English, which are nationalities and not races. The only reason black people really celebrate as a race is because the majority of us have no idea where our ancestors came from. If we did we'd be celebrating being Ghanian or Ivoirian just as the Haitians and Jamaicans do. But before I get off track I just want to say that it's ok to celebrate where you've come from but we all need to celebrate or equality as American citizens first.

nomad, I understand your point, but I NEVER celebrate the fact that I'm part Italian. I consider myself an American and all that other stuff is just a waste of time.

Best line I ever heard... in re: hyphenated Americans. What comes before the hyphen is what divides us... what comes after is what unites us... but because it comes first, we can't truly celebrate our commonality until we can freely celebrate our uniqueness.

When you force people to be or do something they are not... you create resentment

(02-19-2009 01:45 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  And why do women need an advantage, are they inferior, too? What the politically correct folks are saying is that the white man is superior and the field needs to be leveled. Who's the real racist?

The real racist were the white men back in the day who only hired white men because they thought no other group could do the job.

No other group besides white males needed an advantage, they just needed a way in the door.

(02-19-2009 01:45 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 01:27 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 12:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(02-19-2009 07:46 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  You're only looking at things through 2009 glasses. Schools, television channels, NAACP, UNCF, and Affirmative action are all remnants of past societal ills. Everyone was created to give minorities opportunities that were not present at the time. Some of these have been around for over 100 years. It's very difficult to just eliminate some of them. So the analogy is not comparable. Most American colleges are "historically white colleges", and Bravo= WEC

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton haven't been around for over 100 years - it just seems like it. Minorities do have advantages that non-minorities don't have. For one thing, big companies give them preference when hiring so they can show how diverse they are. Look at Obama, everyone praised him because he's black. Who praised McC because he was white? If Obama wasn't black do you thing he would have been elected?

Do you know which group benefits most from affirmative action? I'll give you a hint, they are missing something "down there".

And why do women need an advantage, are they inferior, too? What the politically correct folks are saying is that the white man is superior and the field needs to be leveled. Who's the real racist?

Not really racism, more sexism. Minority men would be hired way before white women. Affirmative action was a way to get more women, minorities into fields. Not because they were inferior, but because it was white men making all the hiring decisions(like the Rooney rule). Now affirmative action is needed to help disadvantaged poor kids get into schools regardless of color, and the disabled. To keep it around balances it out for any group that is disadvataged at the time.

How do we know that people are staying apart due to color? Maybe it's the culture. Personally, I don't care what color somebody is but if they act in a way that doesn't mix with my own personality, I don't hang out with them, regardless of color. I hang out with black people from work sometimes, because, like my white friends, they're nice people and we get along.