It appears to be a very unfortunate set of circumstances starting with an accidental discharge of the perps gun about 1-2 seconds after he was disarmed. Apparently that model has a history of such accidents.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 08:58 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
Early versions of the SIG P320 experienced drop failures in at least a couple of different situations. The issue was discovered after the gun had been approved for use by many of the major police departments around the country as well as for military use, if I recall correctly. The issue was significant enough that the company isolated the cause, fixed it in all subsequent versions, and then offered a free repair and upgrade for the guns that were already in the hands of the public. SIG paid for shipping both ways and repaired and upgraded my original version for free.
I never liked that gun, or any SIG pistols for that matter, so I sold it and bought an FN509 Tactical...
Anyway, I never saw that pistol drop, so the gun cannot be faulted. The officer's accidental actions caused the pistol to discharge. This unfortunate incident occurred because the shooting victim was stupidly carrying a pistol in that environment, not because ICE agents are randomly murdering people.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 09:48 PM by TigerBlue4Ever.)
I watched the video. I'm not prepared to endorse the guy's theory 100%, but here is a synopsis, from my viewpoint:
Two things seem obvious:
1. The agent in gray disarmed the obstructionist.
2. The agent in gray then began running away from the group, with said gun in his right hand.
After that, this is the video guy's theory:
* Somebody yells "Gun, gun gun..."
Not clear to me exactly when that occurred, but it was near the beginning of the described sequence.
* The gun accidentally discharged while the agent in gray was running.
It does seem apparent that the gun muzzle flared to the right, as one would expect it to do in that scenario, if discharged.
* The video guy claims a bullet then struck the ground.
It doesn't look that clear to me, but...
* The agent still in the scrum on the right clearly reacts to something, and jumps back.
* After that, the other shots ring out in rapid succession.
I'm not saying the video guy got it exactly right, but it seems reasonable, and I do recall other videos where you can hear one shot at the beginning, then a quick pause, and a volley of several more shots.
This certainly makes more sense than Chicken Little's version, where the agent in gray disarms the guy, then the others decide to execute the perp in cold blood.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 10:40 PM by TripleA.)
(01-25-2026 09:54 PM)TripleA Wrote: I watched the video. I'm not prepared to endorse the guy's theory 100%, but here is a synopsis, from my viewpoint:
Two things seem obvious:
1. The agent in gray disarmed the obstructionist.
2. The agent in gray then began running away from the group, with said gun in his right hand.
After that, this is the video guy's theory:
* Somebody yells "Gun, gun gun..."
Not clear to me.
* The gun accidentally discharged while the agent in gray was running.
It does seem apparent that the gun muzzle flared to the right, as one would expect it to do in that scenario, if discharged.
* The video guy claims a bullet then struck the ground.
It doesn't look that clear to me, but...
* The agent still in the scrum on the right clearly reacts to something, and jumps back.
* After that, the other shots ring out in rapid succession.
I'm not saying the video guy got it exactly right, but it seems reasonable, and I do recall other videos where you can hear one shot at the beginning, then a quick pause, and a volley of several more shots.
This certainly makes more sense than Chicken Little's version, where the agent in gray disarms the guy, then the others decide to execute the perp in cold blood.
Well, Chicken Little's an idiot so... yeah.
Really, it's like leftists are saying it's perfectly fine for us to walk up to law enforcement while armed and even try to draw our gun, prompting them to try to wrestle it away. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
Actually they yelled GUN! GUN! before the guy was disarmed. After they yelled Gun! the guy was disarmed and the agent began to run away from the scuffle and it appears the gun went off.
Obviously this all happened very rapidly in just a few seconds time so it looked like the other agents struggling with him did not yet know he was disarmed or were not sure of the guy had a second gun.
There is no way to know if he have a second gun until he is down, handcuffed and searched. But of course he was resisting hard.
Once they know you have a gun they have to assume you might have a second one.
Not that that triggered the follow up shots, obviously the first shot triggered the rest. But we all know some idiot leftist will say it should have ended the moment they took his gun, no that's not how it works. They have to assume he could still be armed until he is down, cuffed and searched.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 10:52 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I was with you all the way until your last sentence. You think the perp's family has a case in civil court? I don't see how, since he was clearly in the wrong legally, and started the entire interaction.
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I tend to agree at least with what we know tonight. They could be liable civilly or something but not criminally. Given some civil judgements we have seen I can't say its impossible. I'm not saying its right, just possible.
They obviously were not intending to kill anyone, it was just a very unfortunate set of circumstances created by the idiots out there harassing the agents.
If the guy had his stupid butt at home minding his own business instead of interjecting himself in disrupting ICE while armed he would be alive tonight.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 11:00 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I tend to agree at least with what we know tonight. They could be liable civilly or something but not criminally. Given some civil judgements we have seen I can't say its impossible.
They obviously were not intending to kill anyone, it was just a very unfortunate set of circumstances created by the idiots out there harassing the agents.
If the guy had his stupid butt at home minding his own business instead of interjecting himself in disrupting ICE while armed he would be alive tonight.
Exactly why I think his family has no case. He started all the crap.
Of course, if the case is heard in MN, then the hometown Commies would likely award them a bazillion dollars, lol.
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I was with you all the way until your last sentence. You think the perp's family has a case in civil court? I don't see how, since he was clearly in the wrong legally, and started the entire interaction.
Civil laws are different and your actions are held at a higher step of responsibility. The cop who had that gun every step is going to be looked at and the argument is going to be he should have took better care in disarming the gun. Or handling it. Without that gun going off there is no shooting. But it will never go to court, it will be settled.
(This post was last modified: 01-25-2026 11:33 PM by WKUYG.)
The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
Just reading the synopsis of the video (couldn't sit through 11 minutes-the guy liked to hear himself talk), I would agree with you. Definitely not criminal, but possibly civil.
(01-25-2026 11:25 PM)bobdizole Wrote: The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
The correlation are not even in the same neighborhood
(01-25-2026 11:25 PM)bobdizole Wrote: The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
Ashli Babbit was stuck in a window and unarmed. The murderer came from behind a column, walked up and assassinated her.
This guy was physically fighting with police officers and had one visible gun. It seems the gun went off and the police reacted how they would when they heard a shot from someone who was fighting with them. Nothing criminal from the officers, but again, perhaps civil.
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I was with you all the way until your last sentence. You think the perp's family has a case in civil court? I don't see how, since he was clearly in the wrong legally, and started the entire interaction.
Civil laws are different and your actions are held at a higher step of responsibility. The cop who had that gun every step is going to be looked at and the argument is going to be he should have took better care in disarming the gun. Or handling it. Without that gun going off there is no shooting. But it will never go to court, it will be settled.
Could be. IDK the nuances of the law in cases like that. My intuition is that if you're performing lawful duties, and the gun you're carrying has a tendency to misfire and he's not really aware of that, then maybe he loses civilly, but I don't think it's a slam dunk, by any means.
(01-25-2026 11:25 PM)bobdizole Wrote: The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
Ashli Babbit was stuck in a window and unarmed. The murderer came from behind a column, walked up and assassinated her.
This guy was physically fighting with police officers and had one visible gun. It seems the gun went off and the police reacted how they would when they heard a shot from someone who was fighting with them. Nothing criminal from the officers, but again, perhaps civil.
That matches 0% of eyewitness accounts of what happened in the Ashli Babbitt case. She was warned not to proceed through the window, but she did and caught a bullet for it. Did the police overreact, probably. Did the police overreact in this case, probably. My point is it's easy to monday morning quarterback when we are not in the high stakes moment.
Don't assault federal officers and your chances of survival increase greatly, left or right.
Best video I have seen of the Babbitt shooting. He didn't sneak up from behind anything. He had a defensive position behind a barricaded door. Whether or not the uniform police were chicken **** under threat that "we don't want to see anyone else get hurt" or they knew tactical were coming I'm sure was addressed in some investigation.
But, the point of if someone "wasn't there in the first place doing **** they shouldn't be doing they'd still be alive" remains true. The peaceful tourist narrative falls apart after climbing through a window someone just smashed with a riot helmet.
And the government settled a wrongful death suit with Babitt's family just like they will in both of these Minnesota cases.
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I was with you all the way until your last sentence. You think the perp's family has a case in civil court? I don't see how, since he was clearly in the wrong legally, and started the entire interaction.
Civil laws are different and your actions are held at a higher step of responsibility. The cop who had that gun every step is going to be looked at and the argument is going to be he should have took better care in disarming the gun. Or handling it. Without that gun going off there is no shooting. But it will never go to court, it will be settled.
Could be. IDK the nuances of the law in cases like that. My intuition is that if you're performing lawful duties, and the gun you're carrying has a tendency to misfire and he's not really aware of that, then maybe he loses civilly, but I don't think it's a slam dunk, by any means.
(01-25-2026 11:25 PM)bobdizole Wrote: The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
Ashli Babbit was stuck in a window and unarmed. The murderer came from behind a column, walked up and assassinated her.
This guy was physically fighting with police officers and had one visible gun. It seems the gun went off and the police reacted how they would when they heard a shot from someone who was fighting with them. Nothing criminal from the officers, but again, perhaps civil.
That matches 0% of eyewitness accounts of what happened in the Ashli Babbitt case. She was warned not to proceed through the window, but she did and caught a bullet for it. Did the police overreact, probably. Did the police overreact in this case, probably. My point is it's easy to monday morning quarterback when we are not in the high stakes moment.
Don't assault federal officers and your chances of survival increase greatly, left or right.
Best video I have seen of the Babbitt shooting. He didn't sneak up from behind anything. He had a defensive position behind a barricaded door. Whether or not the uniform police were chicken **** under threat that "we don't want to see anyone else get hurt" or they knew tactical were coming I'm sure was addressed in some investigation.
But, the point of if someone "wasn't there in the first place doing **** they shouldn't be doing they'd still be alive" remains true. The peaceful tourist narrative falls apart after climbing through a window someone just smashed with a riot helmet.
And the government settled a wrongful death suit with Babitt's family just like they will in both of these Minnesota cases.
You have a terrible memory or never saw the video from the other side of the door. He was hiding behind a column and walked up to her and shot while she was stuck trying to get through the window. It was a cold blooded assassination.
And they won't settle with Good. That was totally on her.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2026 12:29 AM by bullet.)
(01-25-2026 11:25 PM)bobdizole Wrote: The fascinating thing to me is the same crowd saying Ashli Babbit was murdered because there was a police force coming up behind her that could have handled it are saying the leftard got what was coming to him.
Can't have it both ways, either you don't do crap that is illegal or presents itself as a threat in the moment or you face the consequences of your actions.
If this guy hadn't been out protesting against ICE he'd still be alive.
If Ashli Babbit hadn't been trying to crawl through a window at Capitol police she'd still be alive.
One thing is certain in this world of turmoil. If you act aggressively at federal agents, you are opening the possibility of getting the swiss cheese treatment.
Just ignoring the obvious problems with that comparison, the EXACT same thing can be said about everyone feigning such anger over this. None of them gave a flip about Ashli Babbit, in fact most were very happy that she lost her life.
Why are they mad now?
DONALD J TRUMP is POTUS.
That is the single sole reason.
They don't give a flip about this guy or the 67 people who died at the hands of ICE while Obama was POTUS. Nor do they give a flip about the 300k lost children that are unaccounted for that Biden allowed in with his border policies.
So don't talk to us about double standards because there is no comparison here.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2026 01:11 AM by ericsrevenge76.)
(01-25-2026 10:50 PM)WKUYG Wrote: I made this point last night that as the gun was being cleared the one guy pulls his gun a split second later you hear a gun go off and then pop pop pop pop. The part I was mistaken on (in my mind didnt say it) I thought I heard the pop as he was raising off the guy. The video he was a step clear so what I thought was a split second was a full second.
Not one of those ICE agents went into this with the thought of getting a kill shot. The only time I think I ever seen a cop want to kill someone was the kid and his girlfriend at a hotel and those 2 cops unloaded on that scared boy for pulling up his pants.
The point I was making last night still holds that everything that happened here is a reaction from this guy not given up the fight with 7 cops. I dont believe anyone acting outside of the law other than the guy still fighting. The shots that killed this guy was a reaction from the gun going off. Not for a second do I believe the shooting was criminal. I do think there's a great chance for a civil judgement
I was with you all the way until your last sentence. You think the perp's family has a case in civil court? I don't see how, since he was clearly in the wrong legally, and started the entire interaction.
Civil laws are different and your actions are held at a higher step of responsibility. The cop who had that gun every step is going to be looked at and the argument is going to be he should have took better care in disarming the gun. Or handling it. Without that gun going off there is no shooting. But it will never go to court, it will be settled.
Could be. IDK the nuances of the law in cases like that. My intuition is that if you're performing lawful duties, and the gun you're carrying has a tendency to misfire and he's not really aware of that, then maybe he loses civilly, but I don't think it's a slam dunk, by any means.
The agency would likely be who settles.
I'll believe it when I see it. I think law enforcement agencies get some amount of liability protection. I read something about it recently.
And...here ya go...
Quote:AI Overview
Yes, law enforcement agencies and officers in the USA have significant liability protections, most notably qualified immunity. This judge-created doctrine shields government officials from civil lawsuits for monetary damages unless they violate "clearly established" statutory or constitutional rights. Additionally, the "public duty doctrine" often protects agencies by holding that police owe duties to the public at large, not specific individuals.
Key Aspects of Liability Protection
Qualified Immunity: Protects officials unless a previous court decision with similar facts found the action unconstitutional. It applies even when officials unintentionally or recklessly violate the law.
"Clearly Established" Requirement: A high bar for plaintiffs, requiring prior case law that explicitly makes the action illegal.
Public Duty Doctrine: Generally protects police from liability for failing to prevent a crime or provide protection, though exceptions exist for "special relationships".
Scope: Protects against civil lawsuits, not criminal charges.
Limitations and Reforms
State-Level Reform: Four states—Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, and Montana—have restricted or removed the use of qualified immunity as a defense in state courts.
Intervention Duty: Some states have created statutory duties for officers to intervene in, or report, excessive force by colleagues.
Liability Insurance: Many officers, particularly federal, utilize liability insurance to cover legal defense costs.
While these protections are often intended to allow officers to perform discretionary duties without constant fear of lawsuits, critics argue they can prevent accountability for misconduct, including excessive force and civil rights violations.
