(06-19-2023 01:07 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  He's amusing :)

Really needs affirmation bless his heart.

(06-19-2023 01:10 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 01:07 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  He's amusing :)

Really needs affirmation bless his heart.

Entertainment. That’s all. And yeah sometimes I get pissed at the moronotron posts. But hey, I am entertained playing golf and occasionally get pissed. So there’s that…..

(06-19-2023 01:18 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 01:10 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 01:07 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  He's amusing :)

Really needs affirmation bless his heart.

Entertainment. That’s all. And yeah sometimes I get pissed at the moronotron posts. But hey, I am entertained playing golf and occasionally get pissed. So there’s that…..

I didnt mean you. We all know which loon i was refering to

Ad hominem attacks are the first and last refuge of a limited intellect that is unwilling or unable to engage with the ideas rather than the person.

That's all Trump supporters have. Clinging to personal insults because there really isn't that much they can actually defend. At least Was SoMs Eagle will occasionally debate and say why he think the criticism of Trump is invalid along with the insults. The rest of you are just making the points against Trump being a good nominee for us.

Every time I see a personal attack rather than a logical defense it just gets funnier and the point of how bad Trump is that his own supporters can't defend him on the basis of logic and truth just gets stronger.

I await more personal insults. All they do is prove me right.

(06-19-2023 01:48 PM)Eagleyed Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks are the first and last refuge of a limited intellect that is unwilling or unable to engage with the ideas rather than the person.

That's all Trump supporters have. Clinging to personal insults because there really isn't that much they can actually defend. At least Was SoMs Eagle will occasionally debate and say why he think the criticism of Trump is invalid along with the insults. The rest of you are just making the points against Trump being a good nominee for us.

Every time I see a personal attack rather than a logical defense it just gets funnier and the point of how bad Trump is that his own supporters can't defend him on the basis of logic and truth just gets stronger.

I await more personal insults. All they do is prove me right.

Okay, now we know what you think of Trump and his supporters. Now that he isn't the president, do you think Biden is doing a BETTER job? And why?

It's like those that wanted Robert Oroarke as president, then senator then governor with no reason for their adulation. He surely hadn't accomplished anything other than run for different offices yet they adored the guy. Are you like that with Biden that because you're a demoncrat, er, democrat that he is better suited for the presidency and much more able to lead?

(06-19-2023 01:48 PM)Eagleyed Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks are the first and last refuge of a limited intellect that is unwilling or unable to engage with the ideas rather than the person.

That's all Trump supporters have. Clinging to personal insults because there really isn't that much they can actually defend. At least Was SoMs Eagle will occasionally debate and say why he think the criticism of Trump is invalid along with the insults. The rest of you are just making the points against Trump being a good nominee for us.

Every time I see a personal attack rather than a logical defense it just gets funnier and the point of how bad Trump is that his own supporters can't defend him on the basis of logic and truth just gets stronger.

I await more personal insults. All they do is prove me right.

"That's all Trump supporters have." "all" Well hells bells look at you.

(06-19-2023 02:43 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 01:48 PM)Eagleyed Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks are the first and last refuge of a limited intellect that is unwilling or unable to engage with the ideas rather than the person.

That's all Trump supporters have. Clinging to personal insults because there really isn't that much they can actually defend. At least Was SoMs Eagle will occasionally debate and say why he think the criticism of Trump is invalid along with the insults. The rest of you are just making the points against Trump being a good nominee for us.

Every time I see a personal attack rather than a logical defense it just gets funnier and the point of how bad Trump is that his own supporters can't defend him on the basis of logic and truth just gets stronger.

I await more personal insults. All they do is prove me right.

Okay, now we know what you think of Trump and his supporters. Now that he isn't the president, do you think Biden is doing a BETTER job? And why?

It's like those that wanted Robert Oroarke as president, then senator then governor with no reason for their adulation. He surely hadn't accomplished anything other than run for different offices yet they adored the guy. Are you like that with Biden that because you're a demoncrat, er, democrat that he is better suited for the presidency and much more able to lead?

Once again we have the guy that assumes if you don't like Trump you support Biden. They do not do the same for DeSantis as always. We are in a primary. The choice is not between Trump and Biden. As much as people so desperately want to pretend Trump is the only republican in the field.

(06-19-2023 01:48 PM)Eagleyed Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks are the first and last refuge of a limited intellect that is unwilling or unable to engage with the ideas rather than the person.

That's all Trump supporters have. Clinging to personal insults because there really isn't that much they can actually defend. At least Was SoMs Eagle will occasionally debate and say why he think the criticism of Trump is invalid along with the insults. The rest of you are just making the points against Trump being a good nominee for us.

Every time I see a personal attack rather than a logical defense it just gets funnier and the point of how bad Trump is that his own supporters can't defend him on the basis of logic and truth just gets stronger.

I await more personal insults. All they do is prove me right.

Maybe people are just sick of the same tired talking points and the insult is for being annoying and fully warranted.

But wear it as a badge of honor. I will try to make you feel right

(06-19-2023 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My priorities for 2024 are

1) Defeat democrat nominee for president
2) Republican majority in senate
3) Republican majority in HOR

I don't think republicans can win the white house with Donald Trump, and I don't think they can win without him if he decides to run a third party campaign. In any event, I think their best chance is to reprise Newt's 1994 Contract approach and make it about issues, not personalities. One big problem with Trump is that as long as he is around, it is going to be about personalities.

On the subject of issues, republicans need to adopt some winning positions and push the hell out of them. Anti-abortion and anti-gay rights are not winning issues for them, although they seem to be the only things they get excited about. If they could adopt centrist positions on both that are in line with the vast majority of Americans (abortion up to 16-20 weeks, with exceptions afterwards for rape/incest/life of mother/child, and basically just leaving LGBT people alone to do their own thing without imposing on the rest), and contrast those with the extreme positions on the left (live birth abortions and the whole trans thing), they should be able to hang on to the vast majority of Evangelicals (who have nowhere else to go), make some inroads with generally socially conservative Blacks (Evangelicals) and Hispanics (Roman Catholics), and appeal to more independents.

They also need to come up with positions on guns and health care. They cannot keep going forward wiith no plans for either: After running against Obamacare for 4 election cycles, they got in power and did nothing. I still thnk that may have cost them in 2018 and 2020, and possibly 2022. Here's what I would propose:
Health Care--Bismarck. It's the way the best systems in the world (France, Holland, Switzerland, Germany) do it, it's the only approach that provides universal coverage (which Obamacare doesn't) and also provides a way around endless queues and delays. It should be an easy sell. The facts are there.
Guns--One, bring back mental hospitals instead of trying to mainstream crazy people in society. The increase in mass shootings actually ties in on the timeline closer to the demise of mental hospitals than to any gun laws or lack thereof. Two, require all gun free zones to have restricted and controlled access enforced by armed security. Mass shootings take place in gun free zones because they are easy targets. Eliminate that. Those two things should get rid of mass shootings. Point out that no "gun control" law has ever brought about a material decrease in gun deaths--not in Australia and not in UK, by the way. For other shootings--provide stiffer penalties for use of guns in crimes, make it a priority to break up gangs, and I would consider some sort of shooter license as an alternative to gun registration.

Other things I would propose:
Legalize marijuana and decriminalize possession of minor amounts of other drugs. The Portuguese experience has been that getting drugs out of the criminal justice system has facilitated getting treatment for addicts and has actually reduced drug use. This also dovetails nicely with breaking up gangs. And it should increase votes from younger generations, where republicans generally are doing poorly.
Budget and deficit was a problem 10-12 years ago, and has gone way beyond that now. The only way to balance the budget at this point is to do the same thing Europe did 30 years ago--implement a national consumption tax. This also has a significant trade protection impact, and is the only way to level the playing field for the USA in global trade. Offset it with the Bortz-Lender prebate/prefund, which also becomes a subsistence-level universal basic income (UBI), allowing the current welfare boondoggle to be farmed out to the states on a voluntary basis, with the money they save because Bismarck makes Medicaid redundant. Also implement the other recommendations from Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin, including lower and flatter income tax rates applied across a broader base (fewer or no non-business exemptions and deductions), again borrowing from improvements Europe made 30 years ago.
Save social security by upping the tax rate slightly to 15% (7.5/7.5), removing the wage/salary cap (the most regressive tax we have), making social security benefits tax-exempt, lowering the calculation of top-end benefits (offset by removing the tax), and introducing a "super 401k" privatized portion that will invest in infrastructure (there is you infrastructure funding) projects, to be paid by user fees set to provide a 5% ROI (compared to 1-2% currently for the SS trust fund).
For defense, adopt JFK's "2-1/2 war" or Sir Jackie Fisher's "two power" objective. Get there without increasing spending (actually reducing spending) by 1) converting 400K active duty positions to 1MM reserve positions (the way Israel, Sweden, Switzerland, and frankly Russia and China do it), 2) converting 240K admin/overhead positions to combat/combat support, 3) cutting civilian and contractor personnel in half, 4) reforming procurement procedures to go with proved technology rather than developing technology, 5) focusing on more cost-effective capabilities (in the Navy, this would include mine warfare, ASW, and NGFS), 6) revising the "top heavy" rank structure, and 7) never fighting a war that we don't intend to win. We do not need more personnel in and around the Pentagon today than it took to win WWII. The goal would be to have the strongest military but never have to use it because nobody would pick a fight with us and we don't go around picking on them.
Repeal the patRIOT act and other infringements on constitutional rights. Note that we had all the info we needed to have prevented 9/11, without any of those subsequent infringements, since on 9/12 we could supply every news outlet in the world with names and photos of the 19 hijackers. This will go a long way to break the power of the Deep State, since they will no longer have the color of law for their egregious acts.

Even if Trump doesnt run a 3rd party (if he loses the nomination), I think there is a big chance he could kneecap the Repubs.

If he turns to the 'I wuzz cheeted' in the event of a defeat, he would buckle support from his base. And, I think there is a not insubstantial chance of that happening.

I really dont see Trump playing 'lets get someone else elected', even without a 3d party run.

Might be wrong on that. If he does not win the nomination, I hope he does neither of a) do a 3d party, or b) kneecap with a 'big cheat' type thing.

About the indictment, who here thinks this will ever actually get to trial?
I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I don’t think this ever sees a court room. Marxist have used this type of weapon before. They do have plans to destroy America. Sadly many don’t believe that is true. You can read their plans if you want. They are out there.
One of the marxist most effective weapons is to overwhelm the system. You see this on the border. You see this in the welfare system. You see this in the printing of money. And we see it now in politics. Their plan is to overwhelm the leader of the opposition using the court system. Multiple indictments and investigations aimed at the leader of the republican primary. Coming one after the other. Overwhelm his legal team overwhelm his financial support. Overwhelm his supporters with legal uncertainty.

We shall see, but I think this is just part of the plan to destroy America. Not follow the “no one above the law” mantra. Sadly a lot of otherwise smart people have fallen for the ruse.

(06-19-2023 01:02 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 12:40 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 12:10 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 11:58 AM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 11:33 AM)mlb Wrote:  Quite frankly I think most people would want to put 90% of the posters here in an insane asylum if they ran across this forum. The political rhetoric and personal attacks are crazy.

I don't think it's that bad around here. The only people that would have a problem are the ones with thin skin.

Nah its not bad. Only loons, crybabies and karens take any of it serious.

This is a minor league board.

The amount of empty, substance free, and 7th grade name calling rich posts absolutely put it there. Much like most of your contributions, come to think of it....

So what’s the difference? You make posts of a thousand words that basically say nothing. The same government backed view with a mental hate for Trump. The problem here is you can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you.

Think about it a minute. You’ve written a novel in these pages and not changed a single mind. Not sure exactly what that means.
[/quote]

It means a lot of people dont give a flip about the facts. Which they have a perfect right to engage in.

Quote:The problem here is you can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you.

I have zero issue with people disagreeing with me. Free country and all that jazz. The funny part is when they say "I dont need to read that chit" as their excuse not bothering with facts.

Then they go 7th grade. Which you are seemingly on the cusp of here. Fun fun fun.

(06-19-2023 01:02 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  Is it just me or does taint use basically the exact same words to every poster he attempts to rebut?

7th grade dropout response, fun fun fun. Lolz.

(06-19-2023 03:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 12:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My priorities for 2024 are

1) Defeat democrat nominee for president
2) Republican majority in senate
3) Republican majority in HOR

I don't think republicans can win the white house with Donald Trump, and I don't think they can win without him if he decides to run a third party campaign. In any event, I think their best chance is to reprise Newt's 1994 Contract approach and make it about issues, not personalities. One big problem with Trump is that as long as he is around, it is going to be about personalities.

On the subject of issues, republicans need to adopt some winning positions and push the hell out of them. Anti-abortion and anti-gay rights are not winning issues for them, although they seem to be the only things they get excited about. If they could adopt centrist positions on both that are in line with the vast majority of Americans (abortion up to 16-20 weeks, with exceptions afterwards for rape/incest/life of mother/child, and basically just leaving LGBT people alone to do their own thing without imposing on the rest), and contrast those with the extreme positions on the left (live birth abortions and the whole trans thing), they should be able to hang on to the vast majority of Evangelicals (who have nowhere else to go), make some inroads with generally socially conservative Blacks (Evangelicals) and Hispanics (Roman Catholics), and appeal to more independents.

They also need to come up with positions on guns and health care. They cannot keep going forward wiith no plans for either: After running against Obamacare for 4 election cycles, they got in power and did nothing. I still thnk that may have cost them in 2018 and 2020, and possibly 2022. Here's what I would propose:
Health Care--Bismarck. It's the way the best systems in the world (France, Holland, Switzerland, Germany) do it, it's the only approach that provides universal coverage (which Obamacare doesn't) and also provides a way around endless queues and delays. It should be an easy sell. The facts are there.
Guns--One, bring back mental hospitals instead of trying to mainstream crazy people in society. The increase in mass shootings actually ties in on the timeline closer to the demise of mental hospitals than to any gun laws or lack thereof. Two, require all gun free zones to have restricted and controlled access enforced by armed security. Mass shootings take place in gun free zones because they are easy targets. Eliminate that. Those two things should get rid of mass shootings. Point out that no "gun control" law has ever brought about a material decrease in gun deaths--not in Australia and not in UK, by the way. For other shootings--provide stiffer penalties for use of guns in crimes, make it a priority to break up gangs, and I would consider some sort of shooter license as an alternative to gun registration.

Other things I would propose:
Legalize marijuana and decriminalize possession of minor amounts of other drugs. The Portuguese experience has been that getting drugs out of the criminal justice system has facilitated getting treatment for addicts and has actually reduced drug use. This also dovetails nicely with breaking up gangs. And it should increase votes from younger generations, where republicans generally are doing poorly.
Budget and deficit was a problem 10-12 years ago, and has gone way beyond that now. The only way to balance the budget at this point is to do the same thing Europe did 30 years ago--implement a national consumption tax. This also has a significant trade protection impact, and is the only way to level the playing field for the USA in global trade. Offset it with the Bortz-Lender prebate/prefund, which also becomes a subsistence-level universal basic income (UBI), allowing the current welfare boondoggle to be farmed out to the states on a voluntary basis, with the money they save because Bismarck makes Medicaid redundant. Also implement the other recommendations from Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin, including lower and flatter income tax rates applied across a broader base (fewer or no non-business exemptions and deductions), again borrowing from improvements Europe made 30 years ago.
Save social security by upping the tax rate slightly to 15% (7.5/7.5), removing the wage/salary cap (the most regressive tax we have), making social security benefits tax-exempt, lowering the calculation of top-end benefits (offset by removing the tax), and introducing a "super 401k" privatized portion that will invest in infrastructure (there is you infrastructure funding) projects, to be paid by user fees set to provide a 5% ROI (compared to 1-2% currently for the SS trust fund).
For defense, adopt JFK's "2-1/2 war" or Sir Jackie Fisher's "two power" objective. Get there without increasing spending (actually reducing spending) by 1) converting 400K active duty positions to 1MM reserve positions (the way Israel, Sweden, Switzerland, and frankly Russia and China do it), 2) converting 240K admin/overhead positions to combat/combat support, 3) cutting civilian and contractor personnel in half, 4) reforming procurement procedures to go with proved technology rather than developing technology, 5) focusing on more cost-effective capabilities (in the Navy, this would include mine warfare, ASW, and NGFS), 6) revising the "top heavy" rank structure, and 7) never fighting a war that we don't intend to win. We do not need more personnel in and around the Pentagon today than it took to win WWII. The goal would be to have the strongest military but never have to use it because nobody would pick a fight with us and we don't go around picking on them.
Repeal the patRIOT act and other infringements on constitutional rights. Note that we had all the info we needed to have prevented 9/11, without any of those subsequent infringements, since on 9/12 we could supply every news outlet in the world with names and photos of the 19 hijackers. This will go a long way to break the power of the Deep State, since they will no longer have the color of law for their egregious acts.

Even if Trump doesnt run a 3rd party (if he loses the nomination), I think there is a big chance he could kneecap the Repubs.

If he turns to the 'I wuzz cheeted' in the event of a defeat, he would buckle support from his base. And, I think there is a not insubstantial chance of that happening.

I really dont see Trump playing 'lets get someone else elected', even without a 3d party run.

Might be wrong on that. If he does not win the nomination, I hope he does neither of a) do a 3d party, or b) kneecap with a 'big cheat' type thing.

I don't think we'll see a Trump 3rd Party go at it if he doesn't win the GOP nod, reason being a 3rd party candidate will basically hand the reins back to Biden.. Happened in what was it 92 with Bush, Clinton, and Perot. Perot pulled enough Bush supporters to give it to Clinton. Now was Clinton a bad president, I can't tell you because I was young, but I know that I heard he was over a good economic boom thanks to Silicon Valley and borrowing power was unbelievable. Clinton was possibly one of the last moderate Dems from what I've understood.

(06-19-2023 03:11 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  About the indictment, who here thinks this will ever actually get to trial?
I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I don’t think this ever sees a court room. Marxist have used this type of weapon before. They do have plans to destroy America. Sadly many don’t believe that is true. You can read their plans if you want. They are out there.
One of the marxist most effective weapons is to overwhelm the system. You see this on the border. You see this in the welfare system. You see this in the printing of money. And we see it now in politics. Their plan is to overwhelm the leader of the opposition using the court system. Multiple indictments and investigations aimed at the leader of the republican primary. Coming one after the other. Overwhelm his legal team overwhelm his financial support. Overwhelm his supporters with legal uncertainty.

We shall see, but I think this is just part of the plan to destroy America. Not follow the “no one above the law” mantra. Sadly a lot of otherwise smart people have fallen for the ruse.

The accusations and votes to impeach and the charges will never end now. This is what happens when two centuries of Congressional rules and protocol both written and unwritten get tossed out the window so that corporately owned dipshits can pose for the damn cameras owned by their corporately owned news agencies and lie to the American people as a justification to dismiss 2 centuries of rules and protocols. The thing is rules and protocols were put in place for reasonable people to remain reasonable. They could not foresee a generation of narcissistic parasites who were unwilling to listen to reason, let alone follow anybody's damn rules, getting elected by the an educated middle class. So government schools tanked the education and corporations through lobby and tax perks put independent businesses out of business, and the result is an electorate where every family has somebody working for a corporation, or for some form of government be it city, county, state, or federal, so nobody dares to speak up about any malfeasance now that every phone conversation is recorded and cameras are everywhere.

The dumbing down and police state technology were developed after private business was killed.

What we have now is a collection of people working for government and corporations dictating to the rest of us how we will be permitted to live. That's classic fascism, which is just another form of dictatorial socialism.

Government agencies are no longer transparent because they no longer answer to the voters. Now schools get this cover because they teach whatever they are told to teach no matter how damned insane it may be. And just like with the Young Pioneers in the USSR and the Red Guard under Mao, and the Hitler Youth, the parents here are being cut out of the influence structure over their children. And if they protest they are declared radical or unfit.

What floors me is that we did live in a free society where all of the warning signs of totalitarianism were known to us because of the history behind the wars we have fought. But those lessons are no longer taught, and the heroes of this nation have all been labeled as abusers of one kind or another so nobody reads about their deeds, or hears their words.

And anyone who defends what the education system has become serves this evil. And nobody should miss that either!

The lessons we should all remember here are these:
1. You get what you tolerate. Never tolerate evil.
2. You never give evil an even chance! You don't waste time trying to reason with the unreasonable. They are using that time to destroy you. They only want to talk when they know you have the advantage.
3. You never give up, because the deeds of the evil recruit your allies for you, if you let them.

(06-19-2023 03:13 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 01:02 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 12:40 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 12:10 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 11:58 AM)Redbanksdog Wrote:  I don't think it's that bad around here. The only people that would have a problem are the ones with thin skin.

Nah its not bad. Only loons, crybabies and karens take any of it serious.

This is a minor league board.

The amount of empty, substance free, and 7th grade name calling rich posts absolutely put it there. Much like most of your contributions, come to think of it....

So what’s the difference? You make posts of a thousand words that basically say nothing. The same government backed view with a mental hate for Trump. The problem here is you can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you.

Think about it a minute. You’ve written a novel in these pages and not changed a single mind. Not sure exactly what that means.

It means a lot of people dont give a flip about the facts. Which they have a perfect right to engage in.

Quote:The problem here is you can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you.

I have zero issue with people disagreeing with me. Free country and all that jazz. The funny part is when they say "I dont need to read that chit" as their excuse not bothering with facts.

Then they go 7th grade. Which you are seemingly on the cusp of here. Fun fun fun.
[/quote]

I read a lot of garbage after Trump was elected. And there was a lot. I , like many had my doubts about him. Didn’t know what to think about all the Russia bullchit. The banking story and the secret servers in Trump Tower were disconcerting to say the least. The dossier was troublesome. The phone call started to wake me up. The level the left was reaching to get rid of Trump was beginning to be the worrisome part. Schiff lying. Comey lying. Brennan lying. Higher ups in the FBI lying. Now fast forward to today. I repeat again, I have no interest to read that chit. You can believe whatever your little heart desires, but I don’t believe anything these criminals in the justice department say. They do not deserve my respect nor attention . They have spoiled that honor.

Good post, JRSEC.

Not that it matters now because of where we are, but don't forget that Obama's administration repealed and then replaced the Smith-Mundt Act with the Smith-Mundt Modernization Act, which essentially legalized spreading of American propaganda (intended for foreign audiences) to American audiences. They legalized lying to us.

Quote:As Foreign Policy's John Hudson explains, the Smith-Mundt Modernization Act of 2012 went into effect July 2, and allows government-made news — which includes products like Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and the Middle East Broadcasting Networks — to reach Americans. In the 1970s Sen. William Fulbright said these outlets "should be given the opportunity to take their rightful place in the graveyard of Cold War relics" because, as he and his allies argued, U.S. taxpayers should not have to pay for propaganda directed at them. But now these agencies say that's actually unfair to taxpayers. Broadcasting Board of Governors spokeswoman Lynne Weil told FP it's actually best for taxpayers to be able to see the propaganda, so they can serve as a check on it. "Now Americans will be able to know more about what they are paying for with their tax dollars--greater transparency is a win-win for all involved," she said. Likewise, a former government official said: "Previously, the legislation had the effect of clouding and hiding this stuff…. Now we'll have a better sense: Gee, some of this stuff is really good. Or gee, some of this stuff is really bad. At least we'll know now."

The problem is, that the propaganda was not given to us and labeled as propaganda. It was just disguised as news.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...da/313305/

(06-19-2023 03:28 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 03:11 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  About the indictment, who here thinks this will ever actually get to trial?
I’ve said before and I’ll say again, I don’t think this ever sees a court room. Marxist have used this type of weapon before. They do have plans to destroy America. Sadly many don’t believe that is true. You can read their plans if you want. They are out there.
One of the marxist most effective weapons is to overwhelm the system. You see this on the border. You see this in the welfare system. You see this in the printing of money. And we see it now in politics. Their plan is to overwhelm the leader of the opposition using the court system. Multiple indictments and investigations aimed at the leader of the republican primary. Coming one after the other. Overwhelm his legal team overwhelm his financial support. Overwhelm his supporters with legal uncertainty.

We shall see, but I think this is just part of the plan to destroy America. Not follow the “no one above the law” mantra. Sadly a lot of otherwise smart people have fallen for the ruse.

The accusations and votes to impeach and the charges will never end now. This is what happens when two centuries of Congressional rules and protocol both written and unwritten get tossed out the window so that corporately owned dipshits can pose for the damn cameras owned by their corporately owned news agencies and lie to the American people as a justification to dismiss 2 centuries of rules and protocols. The thing is rules and protocols were put in place for reasonable people to remain reasonable. They could not foresee a generation of narcissistic parasites who were unwilling to listen to reason, let alone follow anybody's damn rules, getting elected by the an educated middle class. So government schools tanked the education and corporations through lobby and tax perks put independent businesses out of business, and the result is an electorate where every family has somebody working for a corporation, or for some form of government be it city, county, state, or federal, so nobody dares to speak up about any malfeasance now that every phone conversation is recorded and cameras are everywhere.

The dumbing down and police state technology were developed after private business was killed.

What we have now is a collection of people working for government and corporations dictating to the rest of us how we will be permitted to live. That's classic fascism, which is just another form of dictatorial socialism.

Government agencies are no longer transparent because they no longer answer to the voters. Now schools get this cover because they teach whatever they are told to teach no matter how damned insane it may be. And just like with the Young Pioneers in the USSR and the Red Guard under Mao, and the Hitler Youth, the parents here are being cut out of the influence structure over their children. And if they protest they are declared radical or unfit.

What floors me is that we did live in a free society where all of the warning signs of totalitarianism were known to us because of the history behind the wars we have fought. But those lessons are no longer taught, and the heroes of this nation have all been labeled as abusers of one kind or another so nobody reads about their deeds, or hears their words.

And anyone who defends what the education system has become serves this evil. And nobody should miss that either!

The lessons we should all remember here are these:
1. You get what you tolerate. Never tolerate evil.
2. You never give evil an even chance! You don't waste time trying to reason with the unreasonable. They are using that time to destroy you. They only want to talk when they know you have the advantage.
3. You never give up, because the deeds of the evil recruit your allies for you, if you let them.

That's why Communism is more than just a policy ideology. It's a mindset. In a communist society, the State is always right. If anyone disagrees with them, that person is disappeared, never to be heard from again.

(06-19-2023 03:32 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I read a lot of garbage after Trump was elected. And there was a lot. I , like many had my doubts about him. Didn’t know what to think about all the Russia bullchit. The banking story and the secret servers in Trump Tower were disconcerting to say the least. The dossier was troublesome. The phone call started to wake me up. The level the left was reaching to get rid of Trump was beginning to be the worrisome part. Schiff lying. Comey lying. Brennan lying. Higher ups in the FBI lying. Now fast forward to today. I repeat again, I have no interest to read that chit. You can believe whatever your little heart desires, but I don’t believe anything these criminals in the justice department say. They do not deserve my respect nor attention . They have spoiled that honor.

Serious question here, SoMs.

What, if anything, would be sufficient to be considered of at least 'some evidence' of a Trump crime at MAL?

Will anything be sufficient to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?

To be fair, here is what I would consider to be sufficient to change my mind ---

Anything that is introduced as evidence, if shown more probable than not was 'manufactured', or 'made up' --- I will denote that as such.

At a minimum, the prosecution needs to show in the evidence, the underlying evidence that is put forth in the indictment. Now, remember that most of the items in the indictment are one of the following: a) physical items (like a document pertaining to US nuclear stance); b) testimony from third parties; c) testimony from Trump attorneys after the crime/fraud exception was pierced; d) photos and texts from and to direct Trump underlings (Nauta, in particular).

If it is shown that the items in a) were created, I will readily admit that.

If it is shown that the testimonies in the indictment were manufactured -- the same.

If it is shown that the photos and texts were created by the government, I will admit a huge problem.

The issue is that the indictment, unlike many, is steeped in very explicit, very specific items. If they are true, then Trump is in deep ****. This isnt an 'interpretation dance' style indictment. And if the government fails in proving those items up -- then I will readily admit that there is a serious problem.

The prosecutors are playing a straight up --- here is the **** we have, with no guessing necessary. Kind of like them before the last betting round, laying aces over eights on the table, and double dog daring the opponent to take the pot.

Most prosecutions are not like that -- most are roundabout and sneaky. So, unbashedly, if the defense shows those things false, I will *absolutely* come around to your way of thinking.

And, all the items in the indictment are attested to. In addition, all the testimonial issues are done under oath as a second layer -- they are presented as 'testimony under oath' that has been gathered. And the final package is attested to as correct under oath.

So, if the indictment is false, Smith and a lot of people shoud *absolutely* go to jail.

Full stop.

So, in return -- again:

What, if anything, would be sufficient for you consider at least 'some evidence' of a Trump crime at MAL?

Will anything be sufficient for you to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?

I've laid my cards on the table. You are welcome to as well. I promise not to criticize you personally for anything substantive you want to put out there as I just did.

(06-19-2023 04:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-19-2023 03:32 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  I read a lot of garbage after Trump was elected. And there was a lot. I , like many had my doubts about him. Didn’t know what to think about all the Russia bullchit. The banking story and the secret servers in Trump Tower were disconcerting to say the least. The dossier was troublesome. The phone call started to wake me up. The level the left was reaching to get rid of Trump was beginning to be the worrisome part. Schiff lying. Comey lying. Brennan lying. Higher ups in the FBI lying. Now fast forward to today. I repeat again, I have no interest to read that chit. You can believe whatever your little heart desires, but I don’t believe anything these criminals in the justice department say. They do not deserve my respect nor attention . They have spoiled that honor.

Serious question here, SoMs.

OK. Here we go.

What, if anything, would be sufficient to be considered of at least 'some evidence' of a Trump crime at MAL?

I feel strongly that this team put together by a very compromised, angry (someone who probably sees Trump as the reason he is not on the SCOTUS)AG is highly partisan. That is a concern that cannot be remedied.

Will anything be sufficient to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?

Certainly not harmless pictures of boxes in Trump’s compound. And certainly not staged pictures of folders with markings. That is another reason to doubt this whole affair. It is simple propaganda to taint the public’s opinion and possibly tamper with a jury.


To be fair, here is what I would consider to be sufficient to change my mind ---

Anything that is introduced as evidence, if shown more probable than not was 'manufactured', or 'made up' --- I will denote that as such.

Here we have the root problem. Like the ballots already in the box there is no going back here. We will never know the truth whatever it is. We have been shown lies and deception and no consequences for those who perpetrated them. Only the scapegoats of Strzok, Gummie and McCabe have suffered momentary anguish which was soon reversed with retirements granted. The judicial branch has involved itself in truly treacherous treasonous actions. The same core of people are involved in this latest fiasco. I cannot bring myself to believe them in anything. Especially involving Trump. They have earned it.

At a minimum, the prosecution needs to show in the evidence, the underlying evidence that is put forth in the indictment. Now, remember that most of the items in the indictment are one of the following: a) physical items (like a document pertaining to US nuclear stance); b) testimony from third parties; c) testimony from Trump attorneys after the crime/fraud exception was pierced; d) photos and texts from and to direct Trump underlings (Nauta, in particular).

So says the indictment. Unfortunately for most of us the case will probably never see a courtroom. It is like Braggs bullchit and the phone call to Georgia along with the 40 year old rape case with no evidence. It is designed to smear Trump, take up his time while running for president and drain his finances. It’s really as simple as that.


If it is shown that the items in a) were created, I will readily admit that.

How will you know if we never see the evidence that this whole case is predicated upon, the documents alleged in the indictment to be nuclear secrets so sensitive they could bring down our democracy? Lucky for the Smith team these documents are so secret they can’t show us. How convenient.

If it is shown that the testimonies in the indictment were manufactured -- the same.

This is a real possibility here. Intimidating a council to testify against their client. Possibly offering a judgeship. A lot to unravel there.


If it is shown that the photos and texts were created by the government, I will admit a huge problem.

The photos only mean something to those wanting to believe. There is nothing but boxes. Possibly full of harmless stuff. Trump said mostly newspaper clippings and such and maybe even clothes but we know you don’t believe that. So believe what you want about the pictures. I know why they show them on the nightly news. So that low IQs will believe they are full of nuclear secrets.


The issue is that the indictment, unlike many, is steeped in very explicit, very specific items. If they are true, then Trump is in deep ****. This isnt an 'interpretation dance' style indictment. And if the government fails in proving those items up -- then I will readily admit that there is a serious problem.

Smith has a reputation of stretching the law. That is what he was slapped down for in the SCOTUS. He is an overzealous partisan who should never have been assigned to this kind of serious investigation. Should have never been an investigation in the first place. Should have negotiated it out and it should have ended there. As a whataboutism, how is the investigation going in the Hunter Biden case? No raids. No leaks. In the Penn Center investigation? Oh, there isn’t one? How about the Delaware documents? Got a subpoena for those yet? Of course not. That is why I don’t believe a damn bit of this.

The prosecutors are playing a straight up --- here is the **** we have, with no guessing necessary. Kind of like them before the last betting round, laying aces over eights on the table, and double dog daring the opponent to take the pot.

You are right about that. They are playing a game. We shall see what hand Trump plays.

Most prosecutions are not like that -- most are roundabout and sneaky. So, unbashedly, if the defense shows those things false, I will *absolutely* come around to your way of thinking.

Again, regrettably I don’t think we ever get to that point. Trump has been silenced by the same judge who issued the warrant so I expect to see more leaks within the next few weeks of pictures or what not showing just how ‘guilty’ Trump is. The closest this will come to a courtroom is the courtroom of public opinion. Sadly it seems they are winning that one with a lot of intelligent people.

And, all the items in the indictment are attested to. In addition, all the testimonial issues are done under oath as a second layer -- they are presented as 'testimony under oath' that has been gathered. And the final package is attested to as correct under oath.


So were the prepared FISA warrants. With “VERIFIED” stamped on the top.


So, if the indictment is false, Smith and a lot of people shoud *absolutely* go to jail.

Absolutely nothing will happen to them. Surely you have been paying attention? Has anyone gone to jail in the failed coup attempt? For lying on FISA warrants to gain spying access on Trump? For continuing to pay an informant they knew was lying so he would keep quiet? As Joe would say “come on, man!”


Full stop.

So, in return -- again:

What, if anything, would be sufficient for you consider at least 'some evidence' of a Trump crime at MAL?


See above.


Will anything be sufficient for you to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?


No.


I've laid my cards on the table. You are welcome to as well. I promise not to criticize you personally for anything substantive you want to put out there as I just did.

Well, mighty nice of ya stranger.

(06-19-2023 09:52 PM)Was SoMs Eagle Wrote:  OK. Here we go.

Quote:What, if anything, would be sufficient to be considered of at least 'some evidence' of a Trump crime at MAL?

I feel strongly that this team put together by a very compromised, angry (someone who probably sees Trump as the reason he is not on the SCOTUS)AG is highly partisan. That is a concern that cannot be remedied.

So, to be clear, there is *nothing* that could be shown to be sufficient to be considered even 'some evidence' of a Trump crime. That is, Trump is innocent, no matter what is shown, or not shown. Is that a correct statement?

Quote:

Quote:Will anything be sufficient to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?

Certainly not harmless pictures of boxes in Trump’s compound. And certainly not staged pictures of folders with markings. That is another reason to doubt this whole affair. It is simple propaganda to taint the public’s opinion and possibly tamper with a jury.

With all respect, that isnt the question. The question is *not* 'has there been anything sufficient', it is 'can there be anything sufficient'.

To be fair, here is what I would consider to be sufficient to change my mind ---

Quote:

Quote:Anything that is introduced as evidence, if shown more probable than not was 'manufactured', or 'made up' --- I will denote that as such.

Here we have the root problem. Like the ballots already in the box there is no going back here. We will never know the truth whatever it is.

Completely disagree. Trump will have *every* opportunity to disprove the validity of the evidence. I will actually listen to it.

Quote:We have been shown lies and deception and no consequences for those who perpetrated them. Only the scapegoats of Strzok, Gummie and McCabe have suffered momentary anguish which was soon reversed with retirements granted. The judicial branch has involved itself in truly treacherous treasonous actions. The same core of people are involved in this latest fiasco. I cannot bring myself to believe them in anything. Especially involving Trump. They have earned it.

Again, for physical evidence, Trump has every opportunity to disprove its validity.

Quote:

Quote:At a minimum, the prosecution needs to show in the evidence, the underlying evidence that is put forth in the indictment. Now, remember that most of the items in the indictment are one of the following: a) physical items (like a document pertaining to US nuclear stance); b) testimony from third parties; c) testimony from Trump attorneys after the crime/fraud exception was pierced; d) photos and texts from and to direct Trump underlings (Nauta, in particular).

So says the indictment.

Im not making as assertion as to the validity above. Im simply stating what is in the indictment. That cant be disproven. The indictment says what it says -- Im merely listing the types of things in there.

Quote:Unfortunately for most of us the case will probably never see a courtroom. It is like Braggs bullchit and the phone call to Georgia along with the 40 year old rape case with no evidence. It is designed to smear Trump, take up his time while running for president and drain his finances. It’s really as simple as that.

So, there is nothing that presently dissuades you from your belief, and there will never be anything that dissuades you. Is that a correct statement?

Quote:

Quote:If it is shown that the items in a) were created, I will readily admit that.

How will you know if we never see the evidence that this whole case is predicated upon, the documents alleged in the indictment to be nuclear secrets so sensitive they could bring down our democracy? Lucky for the Smith team these documents are so secret they can’t show us. How convenient.

Not so. In this type of case, the DOJ has to get permission to disseminate them. You are correct that the public wont see Document #19 ('material concerning US nuclear weaponry'), but Trump and his attorneys absolutely will.

If the item is fabricated from whole cloth, Trump's legal counsel has every opportunity to review the stuff, and make every counter if they believe it to be false.

The importance isnt that *we* cant see it, but that the Trump legal team has every opportunity to dispute it.

You are conflating your disappointment about *you* (or me) not being able to see or respond to it to some injustice -- its not. The real issue is the opportunity for Trump's legal team to address it. Not you.

Quote:

Quote:If it is shown that the testimonies in the indictment were manufactured -- the same.

This is a real possibility here. Intimidating a council to testify against their client. Possibly offering a judgeship. A lot to unravel there.

I have zero issue with that. And you have details incorrect.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023...allegation

First, Nauta's attorney was never asked to testify against Nauta, or Trump. Bratt, the chief CounterIntel attorney scheduled a meeting with Nauta's attorney, Woodward, and Bratt talked to him about Nauta cooperating.

Woodward had applied to be a superior court judge, and at the end of the meeting Bratt mentioned that he knew that the application was pending.

As the article mentions -- most attorneys do background research with people they meet with. Kind of chit chat stuff. One meeting I was in about two weeks ago the other attorney mentioned my outside 'gig' in the Hill Country. That type of talk happens all the time.

Further, as the article mentions, DOJ personnel outside of the application board have zero impact on the judge application process.

But, have at it. Investigate that all you want.

If Bratt did lean in the manner that you state (even incorrectly state), yeah -- bring it up.

Quote:

Quote:The issue is that the indictment, unlike many, is steeped in very explicit, very specific items. If they are true, then Trump is in deep ****. This isnt an 'interpretation dance' style indictment. And if the government fails in proving those items up -- then I will readily admit that there is a serious problem.

Smith has a reputation of stretching the law. That is what he was slapped down for in the SCOTUS.

He was slapped down on a technicality -- a bad jury instruction. Stop the fing presses. Your comment above is simply inaccurate.

Quote:He is an overzealous partisan who should never have been assigned to this kind of serious investigation.

Lolz.

Quote:Should have never been an investigation in the first place. Should have negotiated it out and it should have ended there.

Trump should have returned the documents after the subpoena. That would be the end of the story.

Quote:As a whataboutism, how is the investigation going in the Hunter Biden case? No raids. No leaks. In the Penn Center investigation? Oh, there isn’t one? How about the Delaware documents? Got a subpoena for those yet? Of course not. That is why I don’t believe a damn bit of this.

Whataboutisms are for the weak in the brain set. They are stupid and inane. There is zero impact on Hunter, or on Joe, or on the issues of *anyone* else on the Trump docs. At best it is a bad attempt at distraction.

If you can tell me *exactly* how Hunter, or any of the other issues you toss against the wall impact on the facts of Trump and the docs -- go for it. Otherwise it is inane chatter that reeks of simple regurgitation.

If/when Trump actually does court, the chorus of 'Biden', Hunter, Chinatown, and all rest of the 'whadabout' issues dont amount to a defense of any sort. Again -- at best a stupid distraction.

Quote:Again, regrettably I don’t think we ever get to that point. Trump has been silenced by the same judge who issued the warrant

Cannon can absolutely overrule the magistrate. I guess you didnt know that. Remember Cannon? Seems to me she went out of her way to be deferential to Trump in his Special Master trips. To the point of being slapped hard by the 11th Circ. Three different times.

I assume if Rheinhart is wrong in his ruling, Cannon will jump in. Hasnt stopped her before.

So your complaint about 'the judge silencing' is just not really there there when you stop and look at all the facts present. But it makes great grist for some. Whoever brought that up to you in that fashion is being dishonest by omission.

Quote:

Quote:And, all the items in the indictment are attested to. In addition, all the testimonial issues are done under oath as a second layer -- they are presented as 'testimony under oath' that has been gathered. And the final package is attested to as correct under oath.

So were the prepared FISA warrants. With “VERIFIED” stamped on the top.

I guess Trump's lawyers who are being quoted in the indictment are lying. Interesting.


So, if the indictment is false, Smith and a lot of people shoud *absolutely* go to jail.

Quote:

Quote:Will anything be sufficient for you to be considered as evidence in your 'predetermined' mind?

No.

Appreciate your candor.

There are some of us that dont have such a 'predetermined mindset', and will let future facts affect their determination.

I suggest you respect that, much as I have respected your comment of 'No' above, which, to be honest, I cannot fathom.