(03-11-2023 02:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 12:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 11:47 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 10:55 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  But it does detract from the "violent insurrection" narrative.

I don’t think so. See above. There were plenty of rioters that day, but he never seemed to be involved in that.

When I look at the video of Ashli Babbittt being shot and killed, I think “violence” on the part of the people rushing the door as well as the defenders of that door.

But it hardly a riot, which I think of as more uncontrolled and more violent.

And as for “insurrectionist” that seems to be one of those things defined by the victors. I cannot forget that Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were also defined as insurrectionists, by George III. Even the Confederates did not want to replace the government of the US. They just wanted to secede. They were quite content to let the US stand, just without them.

I think most of the “insurrectionists” were not trying to overthrow a government, but trying to protect our government from being overthrown
in a bloodless coup.

I do not condone or defend their actions in entering the Capitol. Should they have sat by and meekly accepted the fait accompli, as the Germans did in 1933? Opinions differ. AFAIAC, the way to react was to follow legal remedies, and if they failed, take the country back in the next election. But that’s just me. Other people people see themselves more in the mold of the Minutemen. AKA insurrectionists. AKA Patriots.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize.

Like Nathan Hale. What a dumb ass.

Praising Nathan Hale is not excusing the shitbirds who tried to stop the required counting of an election because of a 'cheat' --- a 'cheat' that no one seems to be able to produce a scintilla of cogent, reliable evidence on.

If you want to produce a viable 'wrong' -- note the adjective 'viable' -- that is beyond what the Orange man screeched on how he was robbed -- then you might have a point with your comparison. I dont see that viable wrong being noted anywhere in the ministrations comparing the 1/6 to Nathan Hale, mind you.

So no, without a viable wrong -- I have zero sympathy for rioters, or for people who violated the law in the Capitol on 1/6 who were seeking to stop or forestall tht act of Congress.

No matter how much you invoke Nathan Hale on the back end.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize. Le bummer (in French)

Listen to Orange Man screech about the Big Cheat -- bummer - you kind of fked yourself like Shaman did when you do what Shaman did. Next time dont put all of your eggs in the basket of What Orange Man screeches about a Big Cheat.

Edited to add: Washington, Jefferson, and Adams all seemingly had viable 'wrongs' that they could point to in their push for insurrection. Much more than Orange Man caterwauling about "He Was CHEEEETTED".

And, to a certain extent, I feel sorry for the dumbasses that stormed the Capitol on and for the behalf The Orange Guy. Its simply the Orange Asshat trading other people's lives for his fking ego when you stop and think about it. But, Shaman, and the other 600 people facing charges, made his (their) own bed in doing what he (they) did. Dirt poor bad choice given the background I would say.

(03-11-2023 02:18 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 12:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 11:47 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I don’t think so. See above. There were plenty of rioters that day, but he never seemed to be involved in that.

When I look at the video of Ashli Babbittt being shot and killed, I think “violence” on the part of the people rushing the door as well as the defenders of that door.

But it hardly a riot, which I think of as more uncontrolled and more violent.

And as for “insurrectionist” that seems to be one of those things defined by the victors. I cannot forget that Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were also defined as insurrectionists, by George III. Even the Confederates did not want to replace the government of the US. They just wanted to secede. They were quite content to let the US stand, just without them.

I think most of the “insurrectionists” were not trying to overthrow a government, but trying to protect our government from being overthrown
in a bloodless coup.

I do not condone or defend their actions in entering the Capitol. Should they have sat by and meekly accepted the fait accompli, as the Germans did in 1933? Opinions differ. AFAIAC, the way to react was to follow legal remedies, and if they failed, take the country back in the next election. But that’s just me. Other people people see themselves more in the mold of the Minutemen. AKA insurrectionists. AKA Patriots.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize.

Like Nathan Hale. What a dumb ass.

Praising Nathan Hale is not excusing the shitbirds who tried to stop the required counting of an election because of a 'cheat' --- a 'cheat' that no one seems to be able to produce a scintilla of cogent, reliable evidence on.

If you want to produce a viable 'wrong' -- note the adjective 'viable' -- that is beyond what the Orange man screeched on how he was robbed -- then you might have a point with your comparison. I dont see that viable wrong being noted anywhere in the ministrations comparing the 1/6 to Nathan Hale, mind you.

So no, without a viable wrong -- I have zero sympathy for rioters, or for people who violated the law in the Capitol on 1/6 who were seeking to stop or forestall tht act of Congress.

No matter how much you invoke Nathan Hale on the back end.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize. Le bummer (in French)

Listen to Orange Man screech about the Big Cheat -- bummer - you kind of fked yourself like Shaman did when you do what Shaman did. Next time dont put all of your eggs in the basket of What Orange Man screeches about a Big Cheat.

Edited to add: Washington, Jefferson, and Adams all seemingly had viable 'wrongs' that they could point to in their push for insurrection. Much more than Orange Man caterwauling about "He Was CHEEEETTED".

What Trump claimed has zero to do with the point I have been trying to make, the one you won’t hear. I don’t give a flying damn about Trump. Maybe that is where you make your mistake - usually it is others who ( we know who, don’t we?) mistake what I say and then try to get me to defend it.

(03-11-2023 02:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:18 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 12:07 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  When I look at the video of Ashli Babbittt being shot and killed, I think “violence” on the part of the people rushing the door as well as the defenders of that door.

But it hardly a riot, which I think of as more uncontrolled and more violent.

And as for “insurrectionist” that seems to be one of those things defined by the victors. I cannot forget that Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were also defined as insurrectionists, by George III. Even the Confederates did not want to replace the government of the US. They just wanted to secede. They were quite content to let the US stand, just without them.

I think most of the “insurrectionists” were not trying to overthrow a government, but trying to protect our government from being overthrown
in a bloodless coup.

I do not condone or defend their actions in entering the Capitol. Should they have sat by and meekly accepted the fait accompli, as the Germans did in 1933? Opinions differ. AFAIAC, the way to react was to follow legal remedies, and if they failed, take the country back in the next election. But that’s just me. Other people people see themselves more in the mold of the Minutemen. AKA insurrectionists. AKA Patriots.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize.

Like Nathan Hale. What a dumb ass.

Praising Nathan Hale is not excusing the shitbirds who tried to stop the required counting of an election because of a 'cheat' --- a 'cheat' that no one seems to be able to produce a scintilla of cogent, reliable evidence on.

If you want to produce a viable 'wrong' -- note the adjective 'viable' -- that is beyond what the Orange man screeched on how he was robbed -- then you might have a point with your comparison. I dont see that viable wrong being noted anywhere in the ministrations comparing the 1/6 to Nathan Hale, mind you.

So no, without a viable wrong -- I have zero sympathy for rioters, or for people who violated the law in the Capitol on 1/6 who were seeking to stop or forestall tht act of Congress.

No matter how much you invoke Nathan Hale on the back end.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize. Le bummer (in French)

Listen to Orange Man screech about the Big Cheat -- bummer - you kind of fked yourself like Shaman did when you do what Shaman did. Next time dont put all of your eggs in the basket of What Orange Man screeches about a Big Cheat.

Edited to add: Washington, Jefferson, and Adams all seemingly had viable 'wrongs' that they could point to in their push for insurrection. Much more than Orange Man caterwauling about "He Was CHEEEETTED".

What Trump claimed has zero to do with the point I have been trying to make, the one you won’t hear. I don’t give a flying damn about Trump. Maybe that is where you make your mistake - usually it is others who ( we know who, don’t we?) mistake what I say and then try to get me to defend it.

If your criteria for calling protestors "patriots" is the idea that they truly believed in what they were doing (regardless of facts or evidence to support them) then you may become quite uncomfortable with some "patriots" as per your definition.

(03-11-2023 04:20 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:32 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:18 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 02:04 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize.

Like Nathan Hale. What a dumb ass.

Praising Nathan Hale is not excusing the shitbirds who tried to stop the required counting of an election because of a 'cheat' --- a 'cheat' that no one seems to be able to produce a scintilla of cogent, reliable evidence on.

If you want to produce a viable 'wrong' -- note the adjective 'viable' -- that is beyond what the Orange man screeched on how he was robbed -- then you might have a point with your comparison. I dont see that viable wrong being noted anywhere in the ministrations comparing the 1/6 to Nathan Hale, mind you.

So no, without a viable wrong -- I have zero sympathy for rioters, or for people who violated the law in the Capitol on 1/6 who were seeking to stop or forestall tht act of Congress.

No matter how much you invoke Nathan Hale on the back end.

Play a stupid game, win a stupid prize. Le bummer (in French)

Listen to Orange Man screech about the Big Cheat -- bummer - you kind of fked yourself like Shaman did when you do what Shaman did. Next time dont put all of your eggs in the basket of What Orange Man screeches about a Big Cheat.

Edited to add: Washington, Jefferson, and Adams all seemingly had viable 'wrongs' that they could point to in their push for insurrection. Much more than Orange Man caterwauling about "He Was CHEEEETTED".

What Trump claimed has zero to do with the point I have been trying to make, the one you won’t hear. I don’t give a flying damn about Trump. Maybe that is where you make your mistake - usually it is others who ( we know who, don’t we?) mistake what I say and then try to get me to defend it.

If your criteria for calling protestors "patriots" is the idea that they truly believed in what they were doing (regardless of facts or evidence to support them) then you may become quite uncomfortable with some "patriots" as per your definition.

Oh, clearly. The Russian revolutionists. Mao. Fidel.

What is the criteria for calling Washington a patriot instead of an insurrectionist?

Seems to me it is victory. The victors write the histories.

Well, the Democrats won that round.

I am not as dependent on the portrayals of the losers by the winners as some are.

Just watched Zoe Lofgren on CNN. Her recitation of history is predictably tilted a certain way, as is CNN’s. I guess it will become the official history.

It is certainly unfortunate that our choices for leaders have come to an ******* and a corrupt dotard. I would rather see neither in office. But if I have to choose one, I will choose the lesser evil. I guess others will choose differently.

I guess we should all adopt that moral stance and lecture people that people should be willing to label Gordon Cahl, the Symbionese Liberation Party, Terry Nichols, the Weathermen, and Geraldine Dohrn as putative patriots.

Can we extend that to Jeffery Dahmer, Jim Jones, and Chucky Manson?

(03-11-2023 06:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I guess we should all adopt that moral stance and lecture people that people should be willing to label Gordon Cahl, the Symbionese Liberation Party, Terry Nichols, the Weathermen, and Geraldine Dohrn as putative patriots.

Can we extend that to Jeffery Dahmer, Jim Jones, and Chucky Manson?

Now you are just being silly.

Please sort this list into patriots and insurrectionists

Washington
Mao
Lighthorse Harry Lee
Robert E. Lee
Lenin
Nathan Hale
Fidel Castro
Simon Bolivar
Father Hidalgo
Sam Houston
Davy Crockett
Sitting Bull

(03-11-2023 06:44 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 06:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I guess we should all adopt that moral stance and lecture people that people should be willing to label Gordon Cahl, the Symbionese Liberation Party, Terry Nichols, the Weathermen, and Geraldine Dohrn as putative patriots.

Can we extend that to Jeffery Dahmer, Jim Jones, and Chucky Manson?

Now you are just being silly.

Each of the people or groups in the first sentence, in their own words, did their actions in order to topple the system. Those are directly on point.

Jim Jones and Manson performed their actions in order to topple the yoke of the US government, and in fact Manson specifically declared the rationale was to start a society ending race war.

Seemingly that is the line in the sand that you define. They meet that criteria (except Dahmer), yet that is "silly".

Got it.

(03-11-2023 07:55 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 06:44 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-11-2023 06:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I guess we should all adopt that moral stance and lecture people that people should be willing to label Gordon Cahl, the Symbionese Liberation Party, Terry Nichols, the Weathermen, and Geraldine Dohrn as putative patriots.

Can we extend that to Jeffery Dahmer, Jim Jones, and Chucky Manson?

Now you are just being silly.

Each of the people or groups in the first sentence, in their own words, did their actions in order to topple the system. Those are directly on point.

Jim Jones and Manson performed their actions in order to topple the yoke of the US government, and in fact Manson specifically declared the rationale was to start a society ending race war.

Seemingly that is the line in the sand that you define. They meet that criteria (except Dahmer), yet that is "silly".

Got it.

You got something, alright. Dahmer? Manson and Jones are real stretches, as neither of them attacked a government building/entity. Jones did exactly what we ask dissidents to do - if you don’t like it here, go to where you do like it.

How ya coming on that list I asked you to sort?

Quote: BREAKING: The recent release of the J6 videos by Speaker Johnson appears to be proving the insurrection was an inside job.

In this video alone we can see that Capitol police release a ‘protester’ and allowed him to keep his gear after he got out of view. pic.twitter.com/p78iVQ8bLE

— Dom Lucre | Breaker of Narratives (@dom_lucre) November 17, 2023

(11-18-2023 11:30 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

Quote: BREAKING: The recent release of the J6 videos by Speaker Johnson appears to be proving the insurrection was an inside job.

In this video alone we can see that Capitol police release a ‘protester’ and allowed him to keep his gear after he got out of view. pic.twitter.com/p78iVQ8bLE

— Dom Lucre | Breaker of Narratives (@dom_lucre) November 17, 2023

That rioter could have gotten 6 years in prison for that fist bump. Isn’t that an assault on the Capitol Police?

This is what an insurrection looks like

NYT Jan. 6 U-turn

In an era when career criminals are often released without bail, large-scale theft is tolerated and progressive DAs refuse to prosecute even low-level felonies, the aggressiveness of the FBI in pursuing the Jan. 6 attendees hits a nerve. Many consider it politically motivated and yet another example of what some call our “two-tiered system of justice.” Joe Biden’s campaign rests on depicting “extreme MAGA Republicans,” as he calls them, as an existential threat to our democracy; nothing suits that pitch better than locking up hundreds of “insurrectionists.”